The American Conundrum

[bradly1101]

I don’t know about you but I very much like to see hypocrisies revealed in government and on the foreign stage. They usually reveal true intentions, whether that means the destruction of rivers under The Clean Water Act or claiming to be doing everything to keep America safe while ignoring intelligence of the coming 9/11 attacks.

Today there’s word of us sending in more troops to Syria and Iraq, and I can’t help seeing the hypocrisies in our own actions. We say we’re against this new Caliphate in the Middle East despite our own violent takeover of the territory we currently occupy, and our support for various wars and coups over the years, including the formation of Israel into territory conquered by their enemy 3500 years ago. Could the trouble this has caused have been anticipated?

We have declared a war on terrorism, yet by the American definition (the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims) we by far committed the worst act of it in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Yet we ponder why the world stubbornly won’t remake itself in our image, or allow our every whim while unquestioningly rolling over. So do you think American hypocrisies are a major contributor to our foreign policy challenges?

 

[master_shake_]

you know the definition of insanity.

doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

 

[Atreus21]

you know the definition of insanity.

doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

That's not the definition of insanity.

 

[master_shake_]

That's not the definition of insanity.

in the practical sense. it is.

well according to Einstein.

 

[zinfamous]

That's not the definition of insanity.

You haven't heard that statement before?

 

[Moonbeam]

Suppose Americans were suffering from a mass psychosis. How would anybody with the disease know they had it?

 

[Tormac]

Sorry if this is topic drift, but since your description of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as the worst act of terrorism, I am curious to know if you think that the invasion of the Japanese mainland by conventional troops would have produced fewer deaths and more humane post invasion conditions for the Japanese civilian population? Do you feel that if we had left Japan to its own devices it would have voluntarily surrendered its holdings in China, Korea, and the South Pacific?

Hypocrisy is a terrible thing, especially in democracies when it undermines the faith of an elected government by its citizens. However I do not see a better choice from the possible ones for the ending of WW 2 than the use of the atomic bombs on Japan.

How do you think the Allies should have ended WW2?

 

[MajinCry]

Not too sure about that Israel bit. Didn't it go a little like:

Egypt holds the land for from 1600 onwards.
~1900s land is conquered by another Arabian country.
1910 British Empire conquers, says they'll hand it back to Egypt.
Britain doesn't.
Jews have been immigrating + deported from several European countries (Germany for sure) & Arabia.
Jews take sovereignty @ ~1960.
>1960 Arabs slowly enroach upon Israel, calling themselves Palestinians & Israel as the land of Palestine.


Aside from that little nitpick, American foreign policy has been a joke for a long while now. 'Twas a common bit for Bill Hicks and George Carlin, after all.

Occupation of Japan? Loads of rape.

Vietnam? Loads of rape and warmongering.

Nicaragua? Directly funding drug cartels, as well as rapacious and torturous terrorist groups.

"The Axis Of Evil"; attacking not-Saudi-Arabia M.E countries due to what a predominately Saudi group did on 9/11

 

[Jhhnn]

Not too sure about that Israel bit. Didn't it go a little like:

Egypt holds the land for from 1600 onwards.
~1900s land is conquered by another Arabian country.
1910 British Empire conquers, says they'll hand it back to Egypt.
Britain doesn't.
Jews have been immigrating + deported from several European countries (Germany for sure) & Arabia.
Jews take sovereignty @ ~1960.
>1960 Arabs slowly enroach upon Israel, calling themselves Palestinians & Israel as the land of Palestine.

That's ridiculously inaccurate, particularly the encroachment bullshit-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine#Early_Ottoman_rule

 

[MajinCry]

Eh? Palestine, as in, the State Of Palestine, yeah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

 

[bradly1101]

Suppose Americans were suffering from a mass psychosis. How would anybody with the disease know they had it?

Good point. Maybe the mass psychosis is based on the fanciful notion of "American exceptionalism."

 

[realibrad]

I don’t know about you but I very much like to see hypocrisies revealed in government and on the foreign stage. They usually reveal true intentions, whether that means the destruction of rivers under The Clean Water Act or claiming to be doing everything to keep America safe while ignoring intelligence of the coming 9/11 attacks.

Today there’s word of us sending in more troops to Syria and Iraq, and I can’t help seeing the hypocrisies in our own actions. We say we’re against this new Caliphate in the Middle East despite our own violent takeover of the territory we currently occupy, and our support for various wars and coups over the years, including the formation of Israel into territory conquered by their enemy 3500 years ago. Could the trouble this has caused have been anticipated?

We have declared a war on terrorism, yet by the American definition (the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims) we by far committed the worst act of it in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Yet we ponder why the world stubbornly won’t remake itself in our image, or allow our every whim while unquestioningly rolling over. So do you think American hypocrisies are a major contributor to our foreign policy challenges?

In the football world there is a term for someone like you. The term is armchair quarterback.

If you think Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the worst acts, then you do not know much history. There are so many more dead from others than those bombings.

The first obvious one is the Holocaust. Hell, stay in WWII and US bombing in Japan, and you get Bombing of Tokyo. There is also Bombing of Stalingrad in World War II. I'm guessing you don't know much of history because if you did, you would know these types of things. Instead you lambaste the Americans from ignorance.

The reason we don't say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrorism is because the other options were even worse. Japan killed millions of civilians during WWII. You read that right, millions. The reason we dropped 2 bombs is also a pretty clear signal to the situation. We dropped the first bomb, and asked Japan to surrender. Japan refused. That was partly because it was close to finishing its own bomb. We dropped the 2nd and even then it took a while for Japan to surrender. Had we not forced Japan to surrender they would have gotten enough time to finish their bomb and the war would be very different.

So in reality, you know very little of what you are talking about. The US has done lots of horrible shit. Its child's play to try and find it. But, to honestly try to say that the US is the biggest terrorist group is insane at best. Only a complete idiot would actually try to make that argument.

 

[Fern]

Not too sure about that Israel bit. Didn't it go a little like:

Egypt holds the land for from 1600 onwards.
~1900s land is conquered by another Arabian country.
-snip-

No, you skipped quite a bit.

Even this is skeletal:

The Greeks held the territory for a while. IIRC, they recently uncovered more historical structures: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...em-hellenistic-archaeology-passover-hanukkah/

The Egyptians were also fighting over it too. Ptolomy captured it from the Greeks. (I should probably say "capture it back", since I believe the Egyptians held it prior to the Greek occupation.)

At various points the Jews/Israelis rose up and fought off various foreign overlords.

The Roman empire then had it for quite a while. Most here (USA) think of the Roman empire as just the city of Rome (capital of the Western part of the empire), but that was just the Western portion. The Eastern portion of the empire was ruled from Constantinople (present day Istanbul). The eastern empire survived long after Rome fell. Emperor Constantine adopted Christianity and made it the defacto official religion of the empire, including Jerusalem. He actually built/restored Christian churches/shrines such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Constantine also reconstituted the Western part of the empire (i.e., retook the land etc.).

The Turks/Arabs came along much later. (And that resulted in the Crusades as they were pretty much doing then what they do now: behead, kill, rape, rob, enslave, destroy non-Muslim temples, statues, art and churches.)

Jerusalem/Israel is simply in a long occupied and highly contested area. It's been attacked, besieged and fought over too many times by too many other nations/empires to list here.

Fern

 

[Fern]

I don’t know about you but I very much like to see hypocrisies revealed in government and on the foreign stage. They usually reveal true intentions, whether that means the destruction of rivers under The Clean Water Act or claiming to be doing everything to keep America safe while ignoring intelligence of the coming 9/11 attacks.

Today there’s word of us sending in more troops to Syria and Iraq, and I can’t help seeing the hypocrisies in our own actions. We say we’re against this new Caliphate in the Middle East despite our own violent takeover of the territory we currently occupy, and our support for various wars and coups over the years, including the formation of Israel into territory conquered by their enemy 3500 years ago. Could the trouble this has caused have been anticipated?

We have declared a war on terrorism, yet by the American definition (the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims) we by far committed the worst act of it in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Yet we ponder why the world stubbornly won’t remake itself in our image, or allow our every whim while unquestioningly rolling over. So do you think American hypocrisies are a major contributor to our foreign policy challenges?

This post makes my head hurt.

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

Eh? Palestine, as in, the State Of Palestine, yeah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

Palestine the place, the region, also known by other names as well.

The State of Palestine doesn't really exist. It's just 40% of the people in the Region that the Israeli govt actually controls. It was just last year that Bibi admitted he intends no Palestinian State & likely never has.

 

[piasabird]

There are always threats. It is hard to say what will happen next week.

We have too many armchair quarterbacks.

 

[piasabird]

Instead of attacking Iraq, we should have bombed Saudi Arabia.

 

[Moonbeam]

In the football world there is a term for someone like you. The term is armchair quarterback.

If you think Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the worst acts, then you do not know much history. There are so many more dead from others than those bombings.

The first obvious one is the Holocaust. Hell, stay in WWII and US bombing in Japan, and you get Bombing of Tokyo. There is also Bombing of Stalingrad in World War II. I'm guessing you don't know much of history because if you did, you would know these types of things. Instead you lambaste the Americans from ignorance.

The reason we don't say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrorism is because the other options were even worse. Japan killed millions of civilians during WWII. You read that right, millions. The reason we dropped 2 bombs is also a pretty clear signal to the situation. We dropped the first bomb, and asked Japan to surrender. Japan refused. That was partly because it was close to finishing its own bomb. We dropped the 2nd and even then it took a while for Japan to surrender. Had we not forced Japan to surrender they would have gotten enough time to finish their bomb and the war would be very different.

So in reality, you know very little of what you are talking about. The US has done lots of horrible shit. Its child's play to try and find it. But, to honestly try to say that the US is the biggest terrorist group is insane at best. Only a complete idiot would actually try to make that argument.

Actually, he probably knows as little as you do, what he picked up along the way. What differs is perhaps is only an attitude, some previous need or capacity to filter that little according to personal preference. To a hammer everything is a nail and to a realibrad, everything conforms to the logic of realibrad. Perhaps had you had your parents land taken and been raised in an internment camp you would be able to factor in the fact that the Japanese around the time of WW2 weren't actually human. We didn't bomb human beings, us high minded Americans, we bombed a monster called the Other and that perfectly OK.

We know from history what happened but it is, if I may borrow your term, insane to think we know what should have happened were we actually saints. Your opinion is just one of many based on your personal programming.

I have no objection to your opinion as such, only the arrogance with which you hold it.

 

[Sonikku]

you know the definition of insanity.

doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

But we aren't expecting different results. We're expecting the same.

More wars = more tax payer money and lucrative contracts for mega donors.

 

[chucky2]

Not too sure about that Israel bit. Didn't it go a little like:

Egypt holds the land for from 1600 onwards.
~1900s land is conquered by another Arabian country.
1910 British Empire conquers, says they'll hand it back to Egypt.
Britain doesn't.
Jews have been immigrating + deported from several European countries (Germany for sure) & Arabia.
Jews take sovereignty @ ~1960.
>1960 Arabs slowly enroach upon Israel, calling themselves Palestinians & Israel as the land of Palestine.


Aside from that little nitpick, American foreign policy has been a joke for a long while now. 'Twas a common bit for Bill Hicks and George Carlin, after all.

Occupation of Japan? Loads of rape.

Vietnam? Loads of rape and warmongering.

Nicaragua? Directly funding drug cartels, as well as rapacious and torturous terrorist groups.

"The Axis Of Evil"; attacking not-Saudi-Arabia M.E countries due to what a predominately Saudi group did on 9/11

How can you encroach on land that is already majority Arab dominated (since they've laid claim to it for 1000 years)?

The simple fact is, the Jews never should have went there in that manner. It was a slick willy by force and bribe because the Jews wanted to be there and the West sure didn't want those Jews within their own countries anymore than they already were...and wonder of wonders, the native folks that had been there 1000 years pushed back (and continue to push back).

It's cool though, Jews got what they wanted, so all's good, amirite?

 

[Zaap]

Holy shit...

The raw stench of history revision in this thread already is... ripe!

Complex situations and events just boiled right down to their most misunderstood level, chewed up, facts and details discarded, shoved through a festering bowel of bias and shat right out in a steaming pile.

A few more pages and just change the title to Open Sewer.

 

[cubby1223]

We have declared a war on terrorism, yet by the American definition (the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims) we by far committed the worst act of it in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I remember you now. You were that Hitler apologist who believed America was wrong to engage in WWII. That the only reason America entered into that war was because Roosevelt had an unfair personal dislike of Hitler. And the Japanese were very courteous and honorable to the innocent citizens of the lands they were conquering.

People like you deserve to be ignored.

 

[FerrelGeek]

lol. Pretty much this. Yet another America is the sole source of evil in all of world history. Yes, the US has its black marks; no sane person can deny that. But world history is full of horrific things that have been done.

Holy shit...

The raw stench of history revision in this thread already is... ripe!

Complex situations and events just boiled right down to their most misunderstood level, chewed up, facts and details discarded, shoved through a festering bowel of bias and shat right out in a steaming pile.

A few more pages and just change the title to Open Sewer.

 

[shira]

That's not the definition of insanity.

Haven't you written this same thing over and over again, expecting people to agree, but they never do?

 

[sm625]

So do you think American hypocrisies are a major contributor to our foreign policy challenges?

It really has nothing to do with hypocrisy. US foreign policy is designed to serve the interests of a few select individuals. These people use the US as a Steamroller to generate profits and power for themselves. What you see as hypcrisy is simply what can best be described as "flailing attempts at damage control". When that giant Steamroller "accidentally" runs over too many screaming villagers, and the news of this penetrates the corporate media firewall, even the most naive of American sheeple tend to get upset and start demanding answers. Answers are made up to placate them. That is where the hypocrisy comes from. The rhetoric about the US simply does not match actual US foreign policy. If you buy into the bullcrap rhetoric, then you're going to see a lot of hypocrisy. But if you fully understand that the rhetoric is just a bunch of made up bs to placate the half-awake masses, then it all makes sense. It is all just damage control.