All you Islam bashers are so pathetic.
Jews cry about anti-semites because Mel Gibson makes a movie.
The Catholic church covers up for priests and pastors who molest young children.
And here you all are discussing about a third religion with preconceived notion and an argument presented by either a Jewish professor or a heretic, Ms. Manji.
Please read the Quran and understand Islam before passing judgments on it.
If actions of a few would make the whole religion tainted, then why not start bashing Jews for putting Jesus on the Crucifix or the Christians and their crusades which at one time massacred 70000 Muslims in Jerusalem, such that the city was ankle deep in blood.
Why not even blame Bush - a devout Chrisitan for killing 13000 Iraqi civilians on a proven false war?
Wake up, ignorant people.
Jews cry about anti-semites because Mel Gibson makes a movie.
The Catholic church covers up for priests and pastors who molest young children.
And here you all are discussing about a third religion with preconceived notion and an argument presented by either a Jewish professor or a heretic, Ms. Manji.
Please read the Quran and understand Islam before passing judgments on it.
If actions of a few would make the whole religion tainted, then why not start bashing Jews for putting Jesus on the Crucifix or the Christians and their crusades which at one time massacred 70000 Muslims in Jerusalem, such that the city was ankle deep in blood.
Why not even blame Bush - a devout Chrisitan for killing 13000 Iraqi civilians on a proven false war?
Wake up, ignorant people.
Your right in many ways (but also wrong in many).........
anyway "bashing" Islam is wrong. At least Islam acknowledges a higher power and provides a moral fabric in which people may live.
Its not Islam that is the problem nor Christianity, nor any othe "religion", its satan, his lies, his hate, living in the hearts of men.
"If actions of a few would make the whole religion tainted, then why not start bashing Jews for putting Jesus on the Crucifix or the Christians and their crusades which at one time massacred 70000 Muslims in Jerusalem, such that the city was ankle deep in blood.
"
Probably because we aren't living in the past. We recognize that the actions you state are ancient history. Something to learn from but not something to condemn the people living today with.
"Why not even blame Bush - a devout Chrisitan for killing 13000 Iraqi civilians on a proven false war?"
As for the liberation of Iraq. Why did the Arab states do nothing to help the people living there for so long?
And what is your point?
I see a lot of people (both Catholics and non-Catholics) bashing the Catholic Church over their handling of abuse by their priests. I myself have made comments that I think maybe the Catholic church should allow priests to get marry so they could reduce this anormal number of priests who sexually abuse children.
Am I saying that all Catholic priests are child molesters? Of course not. I'm just saying that there seems to be an usually high percentage and that this could indicate a problem.
Same with terrorists. There just seems to be an anormally large amount of them that are Islamic terrorists and to me this indicates some problem. Am I saying that all Muslims are evil or terrorists? Of course not.
BTW, why is Ms. Manji considered a heretic? Is it because she criticizes Islam? So if a Muslim starts questioning or criticizing Islam, he/she automatically becomes a heretic? That's pretty convenient isn't it? She becomes a heretic, so we can ignore her now.
I think self-criticizism is good. Without it, things wouldn't change for the better. The civil rights movement was the result of self criticizism.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
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well the biggest problem is that they bought themselves into modernity using a magical substance which they didn't even invent the tools to extract themselves. everything they use, from oil processing, to military hardware, to cellphones is imported from the west or western systems. the fact that europeans/americans didn't simply take their oil from them is based on western liberal values. they have contributed nothing to modernity in a long long time. they have not had to create a society that is capable of making any of these things, and instead can vainly support a backward one on the simple basis of oil money. their society has not had to evolve in the same way as any other. its sorta stuck.
0roo0roo
First, your statement depends on your definition of terrorists. You have not called Bush a terrorist for killing 13000 Iraqis on a war waged based on lies. Nor is Ariel Sharon a terrorist. Read up on his terrorist acts. Second, Middle East does NOT represent all of Islam or all the Muslims. And lastly, I dont understand the relevance of their economic output to this argument. Lets just say it does have relevance... shut down their output and the whole world is a mess, no oil, no economic growth for the entire world.
etech
Again, please, dont start with this liberation theme. First, there are other dictators, mass murderers all over the world. Second, if the Iraqis wanted liberation, they would have had a revolution. That happened right next door, in Iran, where they overthrew the Shah, not even 2 decades ago. No nation, or you for that matter can dictate who needs liberation and who does not. Besides, this is not the theme of this topic.
Please read up the first post in this topic. Half of its content is based on history AS reported by a Jewish scholar, who is basically condemning the entire religion of over a billion people based on half-truth historical evidences. I am not saying what the scholar said is not part of the religion, but he has very certainly quoted MANY things out of context. A religion is not one or two lines taken out. There was a recent topic about Biblical references. Please read that. To understand Islam, pick up the Quran and read it. Do not take words of an individual person as the entirety of religion.
StormRider
This has been said many times again and again. One man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighters. According to the UN, which represents the vast majority of the nations, Palestine is an occupied land - for 50 years. If Hamas is a terrorist organization, label the Israel Defence Force (IDF) as one too. They are the one's occupying Palestinian land. How about Kashmir? According to the UN, thats also an occupied land. Chehnya? Reduced to rubble by the Russian forces. The US is an occupying power in Iraq - by their own words. And those fighting the coalition forces are terrorists? Not freedom fighters? So 4 innocent contractors die in a most brutal way. May God give them heaven. But they are killed by terrorists. The 13000 Iraqis who died were killed for good cause? Please use some logic. There's two sides to a coin. If you label one a terrorist, look at the opposing force.
BTW, why is Ms. Manji considered a heretic? Is it because she criticizes Islam? So if a Muslim starts questioning or criticizing Islam, he/she automatically becomes a heretic? That's pretty convenient isn't it? She becomes a heretic, so we can ignore her now.
I dont believe you have read her book. All of arguments concern with the state of Muslims in the present day world - their actions, and whats wrong with it. Her book does not critize Islam but Muslims. There's a difference. Because most Catholics fornicate, have extra-marital affairs does not mean I criticize Christianity. There's a difference between saying "The Trouble with Islam" and "The Trouble with Muslims". The civil rights movements was not as a result of her criticism.
0roo0roo
Again, such an ignorant and biased statement, its unbelievable all the people who read through these forums tolerate it, then talk about morals and tolerance. Read a little bit of history and see how much Islam and Muslims have contributed to the sciences in the last 1400 years or so. Not all Muslims have oil flowing out of their rear ends. Malaysia is a Muslim nation and its economy is not based on Oil. Indonesia, Pakistan are other examples. If you are basing your argument as how has a religion contributed to society, what has Israel as a Jewish nation done? They get EVERYTHING from the US, including tens of billions of dollars in free money from the US. What a stupid argument. I cant believe you are even serious. "The fact that europeans/americans didn't simply take their oil from them is based on western liberal values"??? Look at your mentality. Go bury your head in cow dung.
First, your statement depends on your definition of terrorists. You have not called Bush a terrorist for killing 13000 Iraqis on a war waged based on lies. Nor is Ariel Sharon a terrorist. Read up on his terrorist acts. Second, Middle East does NOT represent all of Islam or all the Muslims. And lastly, I dont understand the relevance of their economic output to this argument. Lets just say it does have relevance... shut down their output and the whole world is a mess, no oil, no economic growth for the entire world.
etech
Again, please, dont start with this liberation theme. First, there are other dictators, mass murderers all over the world. Second, if the Iraqis wanted liberation, they would have had a revolution. That happened right next door, in Iran, where they overthrew the Shah, not even 2 decades ago. No nation, or you for that matter can dictate who needs liberation and who does not. Besides, this is not the theme of this topic.
Please read up the first post in this topic. Half of its content is based on history AS reported by a Jewish scholar, who is basically condemning the entire religion of over a billion people based on half-truth historical evidences. I am not saying what the scholar said is not part of the religion, but he has very certainly quoted MANY things out of context. A religion is not one or two lines taken out. There was a recent topic about Biblical references. Please read that. To understand Islam, pick up the Quran and read it. Do not take words of an individual person as the entirety of religion.
StormRider
This has been said many times again and again. One man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighters. According to the UN, which represents the vast majority of the nations, Palestine is an occupied land - for 50 years. If Hamas is a terrorist organization, label the Israel Defence Force (IDF) as one too. They are the one's occupying Palestinian land. How about Kashmir? According to the UN, thats also an occupied land. Chehnya? Reduced to rubble by the Russian forces. The US is an occupying power in Iraq - by their own words. And those fighting the coalition forces are terrorists? Not freedom fighters? So 4 innocent contractors die in a most brutal way. May God give them heaven. But they are killed by terrorists. The 13000 Iraqis who died were killed for good cause? Please use some logic. There's two sides to a coin. If you label one a terrorist, look at the opposing force.
BTW, why is Ms. Manji considered a heretic? Is it because she criticizes Islam? So if a Muslim starts questioning or criticizing Islam, he/she automatically becomes a heretic? That's pretty convenient isn't it? She becomes a heretic, so we can ignore her now.
I dont believe you have read her book. All of arguments concern with the state of Muslims in the present day world - their actions, and whats wrong with it. Her book does not critize Islam but Muslims. There's a difference. Because most Catholics fornicate, have extra-marital affairs does not mean I criticize Christianity. There's a difference between saying "The Trouble with Islam" and "The Trouble with Muslims". The civil rights movements was not as a result of her criticism.
0roo0roo
Again, such an ignorant and biased statement, its unbelievable all the people who read through these forums tolerate it, then talk about morals and tolerance. Read a little bit of history and see how much Islam and Muslims have contributed to the sciences in the last 1400 years or so. Not all Muslims have oil flowing out of their rear ends. Malaysia is a Muslim nation and its economy is not based on Oil. Indonesia, Pakistan are other examples. If you are basing your argument as how has a religion contributed to society, what has Israel as a Jewish nation done? They get EVERYTHING from the US, including tens of billions of dollars in free money from the US. What a stupid argument. I cant believe you are even serious. "The fact that europeans/americans didn't simply take their oil from them is based on western liberal values"??? Look at your mentality. Go bury your head in cow dung.
Catholics arent Christians. Catholics are a denomination of their own, shareing some of the same beliefs and practices, but also adding in their own extrabiblical beliefs and practices.
Go ahead and criticize Catholics, but be aware that you arent criticizing the Christian Church.
Genesys, that is not what my post was supposed to demonstrate. I am saying you should not criticize a faith based on actions of a few.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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Sultan
i don't like bush, but he's no terrorist. if you cannot see this, you are blind to simple reason. like it or not, the people of iraq were living under oppression of a murderous dictator, that you would defend him is rather pathetic. a terrorist kills his enemies because he hates them, his violence and methods know no bounds. he targets civilians and then hides behind them. unless you're going to pretend that bush nuked iraq to rid it of wmd, you have no case. and really, the arab states around israel have killed so many more palestinians then sharon its not even funny.
economic output is a sign of health and productivity in a society and its government. it involves far more then simply selling your natural resources.
Sultan
you don't read closely do you. i said for a very very long time? 1400years counts as a very very long time? or just like yesterday!!
you are seriously grasping at straws.
of course not all muslims have oil, but i was speaking of those in the middle east that do. the ones that are in question. the others have evolved for the reasons i've stated, the ones with oil have not. so where am i wrong?
why couldn't the US/europe have simply taken the oil at the end of ww2? we certainly had the power, the arab states in question were nothing at the time. in previous era's, powerful states would had simply taken what they needed. or are you ignorant of history? its fact of power and nations.
and your plainly wrong about israel, their aerospace/high tech sectors are advanced, they have created/upgraded their own weapons for a long time, helped in creating the m1a1 tank, developed advanced avionics upgrades for f16s, their own missles, first and most competent developers of uavs, create and launch their own satallites, leaders in wind/solar/medical research/mri's/ct scanners/ultrasound/surgical lasers... and what do you think a centrino processor is anyways? they have a strong and vibrant multicultural society that is a democracy and has a spirit of inovation, something that is otherwise completely missing from the region. they have the highest percentage of scientists, even higher then the US. it is the most computerized country in the middle east. it is in the top 20 most technologically sophisticated countries in the world. the us sends billions to egypt and spreads money around the region, even to the plo, yet they are totally stagnant. saudi arabia, whom we buy incredible amounts of oil from, used the money to pay for our expertise to build everything in their country. 6 million israelis contribute far far more then hundreds of millions around them. really.... its no wonder there are all the conspiracy theories, the finger pointing, the scape goating. blame everyone but yourself rules the day. you speak of ignorance...but you need to read up on israel a bit.
i don't like bush, but he's no terrorist. if you cannot see this, you are blind to simple reason. like it or not, the people of iraq were living under oppression of a murderous dictator, that you would defend him is rather pathetic. a terrorist kills his enemies because he hates them, his violence and methods know no bounds. he targets civilians and then hides behind them. unless you're going to pretend that bush nuked iraq to rid it of wmd, you have no case. and really, the arab states around israel have killed so many more palestinians then sharon its not even funny.
economic output is a sign of health and productivity in a society and its government. it involves far more then simply selling your natural resources.
Sultan
you don't read closely do you. i said for a very very long time? 1400years counts as a very very long time? or just like yesterday!!
you are seriously grasping at straws.of course not all muslims have oil, but i was speaking of those in the middle east that do. the ones that are in question. the others have evolved for the reasons i've stated, the ones with oil have not. so where am i wrong?
why couldn't the US/europe have simply taken the oil at the end of ww2? we certainly had the power, the arab states in question were nothing at the time. in previous era's, powerful states would had simply taken what they needed. or are you ignorant of history? its fact of power and nations.
and your plainly wrong about israel, their aerospace/high tech sectors are advanced, they have created/upgraded their own weapons for a long time, helped in creating the m1a1 tank, developed advanced avionics upgrades for f16s, their own missles, first and most competent developers of uavs, create and launch their own satallites, leaders in wind/solar/medical research/mri's/ct scanners/ultrasound/surgical lasers... and what do you think a centrino processor is anyways? they have a strong and vibrant multicultural society that is a democracy and has a spirit of inovation, something that is otherwise completely missing from the region. they have the highest percentage of scientists, even higher then the US. it is the most computerized country in the middle east. it is in the top 20 most technologically sophisticated countries in the world. the us sends billions to egypt and spreads money around the region, even to the plo, yet they are totally stagnant. saudi arabia, whom we buy incredible amounts of oil from, used the money to pay for our expertise to build everything in their country. 6 million israelis contribute far far more then hundreds of millions around them. really.... its no wonder there are all the conspiracy theories, the finger pointing, the scape goating. blame everyone but yourself rules the day. you speak of ignorance...but you need to read up on israel a bit.
you don't read closely do you. i said for a very very long time? 1400years counts as a very very long time? or just like yesterday!!
of course not all muslims have oil, but i was speaking of those in the middle east that do. the ones that are in question. the others have evolved for the reasons i've stated, the ones with oil have not. so where am i wrong?
why couldn't the US/europe have simply taken the oil at the end of ww2? we certainly had the power, the arab states in question were nothing at the time. in previous era's, powerful states would had simply taken what they needed. or are you ignorant of history? its fact of power and nations.
and your plainly wrong about israel, their aerospace/high tech sectors are advanced, they have created/upgraded their own weapons for a long time, helped in creating the m1a1 tank, developed advanced avionics upgrades for f16s, their own missles, first and most competent developers of uavs, create and launch their own satallites, leaders in wind/solar/medical research/mri's/ct scanners/ultrasound/surgical lasers... and what do you think a centrino processor is anyways? they have a strong and vibrant multicultural society that is a democracy and has a spirit of inovation, something that is otherwise completely missing from the region. they have the highest percentage of scientists, even higher then the US. it is the most computerized country in the middle east. it is in the top 20 most technologically sophisticated countries in the world. the us sends billions to egypt and spreads money around the region, even to the plo, yet they are totally stagnant. 6 million israelis contribute far far more then hundreds of millions around them. really.... its no wonder there are all the conspiracy theories, the finger pointing, the scape goating. blame everyone but yourself rules the day. you speak of ignorance...but you need to read up on israel a bit.
Are you a Jew by any chance? Im just asking because you present a really, really biased opinion in all your posts. If you are one, I understand why this is so.
Prophet Mohammad (S.A) was born late 5th Century and brought God's message in early 6th Century. That means Islam has been around in total for 1400 years. In that period, Muslim scholars have contributed vastly to astronomy, mathematics, medicine, arts and architecture. There's Ibn Sina (known as Avicenna) in the West who even the Western world regards as the father of medicine. There's El Zahwari, the father of surgery. Other names: Omar al-Khayyam, Ibn Khaldun, Abdus Salam... they jump to my mind. Just because Western history books dont mention their names does not mean Islam and Muslims have not contributed to society, sciences and arts.
As for the Middle Eastern nations progressing, you will be surprised to know of their developments. From reclaiming desert land for agriculture, to engineering, to education, the Middle Eastern nations are doing quite well. If you ever visited Dubai, Jeddah, Beirut, you would know.
The statements you made about Israel are ALL COMPLETELY true. But reread by statement and you can see what I said was right. Where do you think Israels gets the F16 from, or the M1A1 tanks? Israel doesnt launch its own satellites, NASA does it for them. And where do they get the money to invest in research for for lasers and wind/solar/blah blah blah? Israel does not have any natural resources, they dont even have arable land. Where would they get the money from?
Why do you refer to the US/Europe as we? How old are you buddy? First, the vast resources of oil in the Middle East were not discovered in the first half of last century. What power did the Western nations have after WW2? Over 56 million people died in that War, and you speak of power and occupation? Are you in your senses? What previous era are you talking about? World War 2 happened one generation ago, not a few centuries ago. Are you ignorant of history? Britain could not even hold on to the Indian sub-continent after WW2. France was overrun by Germany in a matter of weeks. Half a million US soldiers died in that war. POWER?!? HA!
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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theres no chance. and its irrelevant. your posts are so biased you must be an arab right? as no one that would agree with you could be anything else by your reasoning. the tinge of racism evident in your question is rather disgusting.
stop talking about 1400 years ago, its irrelevant to the current situation. and frankly irrelevant to my original post unless you pretend that 1400 yrs isn't long ago.
with technology developed by those countries? with their labor and expertise from those countires? there may be exceptions, but its not that common at all.
i didn't say they made their tanks and f16's, simply that they help develop or upgrade them. and where do you think they got weapons before the us? yes, other countries. thats besides the point since they were developing their 2nd fighter called the lavi, but opted to go with the f16 instead in part for budgetary reasons. they have upgraded weapons they do export to their own specifications. they develop and build many other weapons systems like the arrow missle interceptor. their own rockets for launching their own satalites etc.
just look at the f16-i with israels additional conformal fuel tanks and avionics spine, which countries like singapore purchase for their own f16s
Israel is acquiring an advanced version of the aircraft designated as the F-16I. The configuration includes updated avionics, color cockpit displays, and a helmet-mounted display all manufactured by the Israel-based global defense company Elbit; an advanced electronic warfare suite manufactured the Israeli company Elisra; advanced weapons and sensors manufactured by the Israeli Government-owned company Rafael; and other improved systems. Israel Aircraft Industries will continue its long tradition of producing F-16 airframe components. These and other Israeli companies will contribute approximately 25 percent of the aircraft.
regular f16
just look here if you want confirmation and info on other weapons systems. http://www.israeli-weapons.com/israeli_weapons.html those are not nasa launch vehicles.
atleast you admit this. then really, the egyptians should be doing incredible things. not to mention the super oil rich saudi's should be juggernauts of science based on money
Israel
Population:6,116,533 (July 2002 est.)
GDP purchasing power parity - $117.4 billion
GDP - per capita
urchasing power parity - $19,500 (2002 est.)Exports:$28.1 billion f.o.b. (2002 est.)
Economic aid - recipient:$720 million from US (2001 est.)
Egypt
Population:74,718,797 (July 2003 est.)
GDP: purchasing power parity - $289.8 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $4,000 (2002 est.)
Exports: $7 billion f.o.b. (2002 est.)
Economic aid - recipient: ODA, $2.25 billion (1999)
i know when the oil was discovered and became important, and its still rather irrelevant. the fact is even after the devestating war, the us and its allies had far more technological and military know how. and if not restrained by western liberal values, they could have simply done anything they wanted to the middle east as empires/conquerers have done in past eras. what power did the middle east have at that time? thats right....none. you don't think us or britain could have simply seized the oil fields? we had nuclear weapons for %#@ sake. hah, you are niave. and your rather condesending posts that have been wrong time and time again prove that it is you that are ignorant of history, not me.
0roo0roo
Sorry, I have nothing against Jews. I just have a problem understanding your biased views.
I am not talking about 1400 years ago. Check up on the names. They come from 5 different centuries, the last one comes from last decade. If you dont WANT to accept a fact, thats different.
Yup, it may surprise you, but not ALL technology is developed in the Western world. Your notion about Middle Eastern nations still living in the Dark Ages is what reeks of racism.
emm... Pakistan makes their own tanks and upgrades/maintains F-16s, and they have developed their own fighter aircraft. What does that prove? Israel has been receiving military aid from Britain and the United States since its independance. Refer to this link for more information: Link1 The website you gave me keeps throwing a debug error. I cant go through it. Nonetheless, you are right, they do have the SHAVIT rocket launching system. See, I admit where I am wrong. I am not hardheaded. You should try being not hardheaded too.
Egypt does not have rivers of oil. I dont believe they have any significant natural resources either. As for your statistics, here's something I found doing a simple google search on "Israel Economic Aid":
Link1
Link2
I believe you tried the same thing and picked the third website's information, skipping the first two Interesting.
How is the discovery of oil irrelevant? You speak of the Western nations siezing oil fields when they werent even discovered and then you say its irrelevant? The fact is you're pretty much oblivious to consequences of war. Since you insist on referring to the US and Britain as "WE", "YOU" were not even able to hold onto Vietnam, with vastly superior military power. If "YOU" had so much power, why could "YOU" not hold onto British India after World War 2? As for ignorance of history, the Ottoman empire comprising of present day Arab nations had been divided by the Allies amongst themselves after WORLD WAR 1. "YOU" could not even hold it for 20 years till World War 2. Stop talking about your "WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES". What are these liberal values? A President who has oral sex with an intern and lies about it? The next one lies to his own people and the world about Weapons of Mass Destruction and kills 13000 innocent civilians? HA! Ignorant person.
Sorry, I have nothing against Jews. I just have a problem understanding your biased views.
I am not talking about 1400 years ago. Check up on the names. They come from 5 different centuries, the last one comes from last decade. If you dont WANT to accept a fact, thats different.
Yup, it may surprise you, but not ALL technology is developed in the Western world. Your notion about Middle Eastern nations still living in the Dark Ages is what reeks of racism.
emm... Pakistan makes their own tanks and upgrades/maintains F-16s, and they have developed their own fighter aircraft. What does that prove? Israel has been receiving military aid from Britain and the United States since its independance. Refer to this link for more information: Link1 The website you gave me keeps throwing a debug error. I cant go through it. Nonetheless, you are right, they do have the SHAVIT rocket launching system. See, I admit where I am wrong. I am not hardheaded. You should try being not hardheaded too.
Egypt does not have rivers of oil. I dont believe they have any significant natural resources either. As for your statistics, here's something I found doing a simple google search on "Israel Economic Aid":
Link1
Link2
I believe you tried the same thing and picked the third website's information, skipping the first two
Interesting.How is the discovery of oil irrelevant? You speak of the Western nations siezing oil fields when they werent even discovered and then you say its irrelevant? The fact is you're pretty much oblivious to consequences of war. Since you insist on referring to the US and Britain as "WE", "YOU" were not even able to hold onto Vietnam, with vastly superior military power. If "YOU" had so much power, why could "YOU" not hold onto British India after World War 2? As for ignorance of history, the Ottoman empire comprising of present day Arab nations had been divided by the Allies amongst themselves after WORLD WAR 1. "YOU" could not even hold it for 20 years till World War 2. Stop talking about your "WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES". What are these liberal values? A President who has oral sex with an intern and lies about it? The next one lies to his own people and the world about Weapons of Mass Destruction and kills 13000 innocent civilians? HA! Ignorant person.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
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the us military and their equipment manufacterers are very protective of their industries. sometimes they even refuse to allow israel to replace certain components on purchase, instead forcing them to buy their version. what israel uses are equipement that best suit their needs, which are not always the same as the us. it is life and death as evidenced by 3 wars israel had to survive against its neighbors, they don't choose things for petty reasons. the article doesn't take into account technology transfers from even failed projects.
as for military aid, add 1.3bil to egypt this year for the war against iraq, and another 1.6billion to make up for lost tourism
as for western liberal values, those values include free speech,and even misleading or inaccurate speech.
but in the context i used it, i was refering to the belief that you don't simply take another countries resources by force because you can.
as for military aid, add 1.3bil to egypt this year for the war against iraq, and another 1.6billion to make up for lost tourism
as for western liberal values, those values include free speech,and even misleading or inaccurate speech.
but in the context i used it, i was refering to the belief that you don't simply take another countries resources by force because you can.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
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bias is your opinion, nothing else.
anything recent? say the last 50 years? anything on any half decent scale? if there was, you woulnd't have to dig so deep would you?
its not racism when its an honest fact. saudi arabia and others have quite literally bought their way into modernity and the us and others were happy to help. if you dispute that, you dispute history.
a country of what? 150 MILLION. i would hope they would develop their own stuff on some level. not to mention it is also a country that doesnt really have oil... so are you proving my point? that countries that have no oil have to work at evolving a little harder?
and don't forget arab states were recieving soviet aid for much of their existence too
do not forget a little thing called the cold war.and if they had rivers of oil like saudi arabia, that extra us aid should create a level of science on par with israel right? or even if it didn't, they should be atleast close to israel right? unless they are spending the aid on xbox and dvds....
as for where i got the stats? the cia fact book. its a tad arrogant of you to pretend you know what search term i used on google. i didn't even use it in this case as the cia fact book is reasonably reliable when it comes to economic/population datahttp://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html#Econ
wtf? i said nothing of the us and europe siezing oil fields before they were discovered. i said if they did not asbribe to the evil "liberal western values" once they did discover oil, they would have simply siezed the oil as powers have done in the past. what do you not understand about this?
don't bring up vietnam, vietnam was bolstered by the soviets and chinese and we werent there to steal any resources, it was to protect the vietnamese from communism. and we fought with liberal western values holding us back from total war. you don't seem to understand the concept of liberal western values. think hitler..thats just the opposite. if we had just gone in and just killed everything that moved... we would have won. if we had gone in like hamas, it would be much simpler, as it is if you are simply ruthless and inhuman.
um... if the british didn't adopt liberal western values, they would have simply put down the indians with brutal and inhuman force. much like how the jordanians did their palestinians, let alone the kuwaitis.
you simply misunderstand the concept it seems.
Yes, the US military is very protective of their industries, so rather than ask Israel to buy weapons from them, it just provides a few billions in aid for Israel to develop the Arrow missiles, an attack fighter aircraft - the Lavi, and a tank. Which by the way is what I said two posts ago, but you just dont want to admit it.
Good Lord, did you even read the links I provided? Cant you even TRY and be fair in your judgments? Where did you get this information? Not that I dont trust you, but it would be better to look at some sources. Also note that the military aid to Egypt is in the form of loans, while those to Israel are waived. Read the websites I provided. One mentions loans of $29 billion being waived.
I just told you, the last name comes from a person from the last decade. Dont you read?
How do you back up this fact? Just because you say it, it becomes history?
You say Muslim nations dont contribute to society and sciences, I give you a credible evidence to counter the claim, and you are still not satisfied? During the Cold War, Saudi Arabia was a US ally, so was Saddam who even sunk a US destroyer but was happily pardoned by the US, so was the Shah of Iran, what history do you speak of?
If you read your own statistics, the GDP of Egypt is twice that of Israel, so they've managed pretty alright. You didnt even bother reading up my sources. The US aid to Israel has so far meant $14000+ per every Israelite. Thats almost the GDP per capita of Israel.
Oh right. A small country like Vietnam could not be conquered and you talk about the much larger Middle Eastern nations being conquered. Ofcourse, Vietnam was bolstered by so, and so. What can I say to that?
Dont you think the rest of the world would take some action if the West tried to take over Middle Eastern oil? They certainly did so when the US tried taking over a resource poor nation like Vietnam. By the way, the US forces in Vietnam did kill indiscriminately. There are countless accounts from former soldiers who served in Vietnam. And the British did try. Watch the movie Gandhi. Or just read up a little bit of history. The Britishers were quite cruel masters of the Indian subcontinent. Lets see... Western liberal values -> Germany tried taking over all of Europe, Britain held the Indian sub-continent till 1947, the US tried to take over Vietnam (again using the term liberation - that time against communism) and are trying to do so again in Iraq. Please dont call it liberation for God's sake, even the US Government has termed itself as an "Occupying Power". And the United States didnt liberate Rwanda or Mogadishu or Congo or Bosnia. It sat by idly while mass genocide and ethnic cleansing took place. Great liberal values.
What you call "misleading or inaccurate speech" resulted in the deaths of 13000 innocent people, and as many as 55000 total Iraqis. Think how the families of those who died in the WTC bombing and how they felt. Now multiple that by atleast 4. Thats how many families have been ruined by the "WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES" in a false war.
If you are so proud of your "WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES", express some words of sympathy for those who died because the President of the United States lied!
And if you are so proud of your "WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES", why dont you criticize Israel for defying over 130 UN Resolutions? And the Jenin Massacre (Jenin)? And the massacre of Lebanese civilians at a UN compound in Qana in 1996 (Link1)? How about the Sabra and Shantila Massacres of 6 June 1984 (Link2)? The suicide bombings get plenty of coverage, and they rightly should, but does your media with "WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES" show you this: Link3?
Maybe Palestinian and Arab lives are insignificant to you. Do you have any comments about Israel murdering Rachel Corrie?
Or is it that all your criticism is reserved for the Palestinian and Arab terrorists? And you've call me racist.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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really, whats your point? that the us doesnt require most of the aid to be spent on us weapons? because that isn't true, it is.
as i said, the cia factbook, which has information on most any country. and http://www.cdi.org/iraq/aid-pr.cfm
as i said, you don't understand the concept of liberal western values. i didn't say western values did i? i said LIBERAL western values.
i tell you what western liberal values are...not joyfully dancing in the street as the palestinians did after human attrocity such as 9/11. not dancing in the street as saddam launches scuds at israeli civilians....
as for the un, its nothing more then a forum for nations. 1.2billion moslims, many with oil voting up storms against 6 million in israel? no.... that couldn't happen for less then legitimite reasons could it?
fact is they are eerily silent when it comes to the vast numbers of palestinians ethnically cleansed by the kuwaitis, the 25 thousand killed by jordan, the hundreds of millions of women that live under apartheid conditions, syrias occupation of lebanon, its brutal killings of political prisoners, the basic oppression of the governments in the area, the lack of human rights etc etc etc. all it is....is point to israel. don't look at us..... look at the only multicultural democracy in the area fighting endless waves of terrorismand oh god, don't bring up jenin, the palestinian penchant for number inflation and exploitation of death was at its worst there. where a supposed corpse during a funeral procession fell off the stretcher, and then ran off.
My point which I mentioned earlier as well is that Israel gets EVERYTHING from the US. Money, military hardware and technology transfer. But ofcourse, its Saudi Arabia and others who have bought their way to modernity. Israel, in its 50 years of existence has developed satellites and rockets and everything else you mentioned by themselves
Oh yes, CIA, a US Government agency would definitely disclose the accurate amounts of aid supplied by the US Government. Isnt this the same government agency who's director recently apologized for providing false information to the President of the US about Iraq's WMD capability. Yup, I must believe CIA now
No, ofcourse you didnt. Your LIBERAL Western Values only pertain to Western Nations not occupying foreign land, which by the way, they did do anyways, in Vietnam, and now in Iraq. Ofcourse I cannot mention Vietnam because it was supported by Chinese and Soviets. Doesnt matter if the US attacked Vietnam, it matters who supported the tiny nation. The LIBERAL western values are never aroused when mass genocides are taking place all over the world, or when Israel commits atrocities, they just come into play when you say they should.
Yup, you sit here and support your government for killing 13000 Iraqis based on lies and false assumptions, over 4 times as many as those that died in the WTC, and you criticize the Palestinians for the being joyful at the deaths of those in the WTC. You can condone your governments atrocities, but you cant accept the Palestinians condoning the same. If you have such high LIBERAL western values, why dont you speak out against the US Government? Where are your LIBERAL western values now?
Oh, ofcourse, if IRAQ violates the UN Resolutions, it MUST be attacked. If Israel violates over 10 times as many resolutions, we sit back and relax. Hypocrital? Ofcourse not. LIBERAL Western Values.
Another example of blatant hypocrisy. No mention of every single Israeli atrocity I mentioned. Not a single source provided to back up your words. If you so very well speak out against the Muslims and their atrocities, take a moment to comment on the Israeli atrocities please. I'd really like to hear what you have to say after seeing the pictures of kids with their faces burned off. Dont you think thats what the Suicide bombers do to Israeli children? Should we not condemn both? I would. You certainly dont.
The link I gave you is from the HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, another of your WESTERN sources. Maybe the whole Jenin massacre was a conspiracy. No one died. There is no Jenin. You're just so blatantly biased. Unbelievable. Conviniently you just pass over all the Israeli atrocities again. You dont even address Rachel Corries death. Racism at its best.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
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which is blatantly not true, as evidenced by all the weapons systems/rockets/computers you didn't even look into. israels first vacumn tube computers were built in the 50's, the us wasn't funding them then. the fact is, this tiny country has developed the science and technology infrastructure and human resources to build and design advanced systems and components. their recordd in the sciences is unsurpased in the middle east, and its not through money, but scientists and engineers which israel trains.
i suppose your average web lackey with a website has more inside access to us financial information then the cia right?
you still don't get it. that you are even allowed to voice your opinion on government matters without fear of being locked up is a liberal western value.
don't play silly games. moral superiority does not come from superior number of casualties. else hitlers germany who lost far more troops and civilians then the the US would be morally superior.
10 times as many resolutions brought by which countries? mostly supported by votes of democracies who don't have endless human right abuses? no.... wait... they aren't are they? maybe 1.2billion moslim countries many with large oil reserves attacking a jewish state any way they can? the UN that allows countries with attrocious human rights records like lybia to chair the human rights commitee is no moral authority. it is a political forum. and frankly, which country gassed the kurds? which country invaded kuwait? really.... i don't even support the war, but your case is just beyond weak.
whens the last time israel intentionally used its troops to kill civilians? tell me? whens the last time the palestinians have sent suicide bombers to kill as many civilians as possible? whens the last time israel coated their bullets in rat poison? never.... whens the last time palestinian bombers coat their nails in rat poison to make sure the wounded don't stop bleeding? most every time... the fact is this, intent does matter. you cannot equate collateral damage with intentional mass murder. if you cannot see the difference, you live in a fantasy where all distinctions become irrelevant. it is to live in a world where one cannot judge a war to stop genocide as any better then a war to commit genocide.
you disputing the fact that a man fell off a stretcher after pretending to be a corpse in a funeral procession? that the palestinians engage in such disgusting tactics? that jenin wasn't predicated by a rash of terror? it wasn't an incident that occured in a vacumn. the israelis decided to raid the town to rid it of terrorists and weapons. and they did so in a way that would best preserve human life. instead of just bombing the entire area to dust, they sent troops door to door, risking their own lives to protect the lives of civilians(in complete contrast to palestinian tactics), many being blown up by booby traps which involved hundreds of explosives. don't even pretend the there weren't loads of palestinian gunmen there. it was a virtual snipers nest the fact is the terror groups hide behind civilians because they just don't care who dies. if a palestinian civilian dies because of their cross fire or bomb? they mined their streets 2-3 days before hand for f*ck sake. so much the better, another civilian death to blame on the idf. the fact is, the men who wire palestinian houses with explosives, that hide behind palestinian civilians after they cowardly kill israeli civilians are to blame. without their mass murder wave, israel wouldn't have had a reason to go on incursions. just how many israelis would die if every suicide bomber was successful huh? their intention is mass murder on a scale that is digusting, the fact that the israelis stop maybe 9 in 10 does not in any way lessen the fact of their intent for attrocity.
as i said, liberal western values allow for bias, and inaccuracy. hrw is a biased organization with an agenda. its coverage is one sided, and tends to take palestinian accounts at their word. the fact they don't even mention the incident of the fake funeral, or even question their palestinian supplied information in this light is rather telling.
I'm sorry, did you not read the article I provided the link to? Let me quote it again for you:
Yes, the tiny nation without any resources and SIX million people developed everything out of thin air, and sheer magic.
You just dont want to admit Israel has received over $80 billion in aid, I cant make you believe it. Would this change report change your mind? CNN "In the 2001 budget, the United States provides 8.17 billion new shekels ($1.98 billion) in military aid and 3.465 billion shekels ($840 million) in economic aid."
Then voice your opinion about Israeli atrocities and US lies. Where are your LIBERAL Western values? Are they just reserved for Palestinian and Arab terrorists?
13000 innocent deaths is not a "silly game" :disgust: If you HAVE morals, you'll condemn the US government. Apprarently you dont. What a ridiculous analogy. Hitler was the one who initiated the war for Germany. Here, the US is the one which initiated the war. You are truly disgusting :disgust: 13000 deaths and you say I'm playing "silly games"?
Relevance to the UN is cited in Iraq's case, but not in Israel's case? What a hypocit you are. They arent 1.2 billion Muslim countries. And you keep saying large oil reserves, large oil reserves. If the oil had any bearing on Arab power, Israel probably would not exist based on your own judgment on the intention of Arabs.
Are you freaking SERIOUS? :Q How many sources did I give you? :Q What sources did you give me of your stupid rat poison claims? What utter crap you say! HRW is a biased organization, all your sources are unbiased. I think you are mentally delinquint.
You still have NO opinion about Rachel Corrie. Or the other mass massacres I gave you information about. The WHOLE FREAKING REFUGEE camp was reduced to rubble with BULLDOZERS, and you claim the IDF carried out their operation to preserve human life???
No, I am not disputing the fact you mentioned about the Palestinian falling off the stretcher. I am not arguing Palestinians being angels. But you on the other hand put the Israelites as children of God, incapable of any evil or sin.
You are just a racist s.o.b. If your family suffers the same fate as the Palestinians under Israel do, maybe then you'll see reality. I hope you do get to see the Palestinian reality someday.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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the fact is they have advanced science/tech in all sectors from biotech to bio agriculture. and yet you fixate on 3 weapons systems and pretend they don't spend their own money/resources too. not to mention you pretend technology sharing from development worthless for no apparent reason. ignore the centrino, the early computer of the 50's that was far before any us aid of course, and thats just the tip of the iceberg.
http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2002allfields.html
i dont pretend they don't, but their neighbors recieved copious amounts from the us and soviets throughout the decades. israel didnt get us military aid until the 73war. why did israel get aid? thats right, the arab states sided with the evil empire during the cold war. before this period, the arab states recieved three times israels aid. and now places like egypt get aid in the billions, a very expensive price for a very cold peace. i didn't dispute your figures, just your assertion that somehow your source is somehow more reliable then the cia fact book. something you seem very sure of.
apparently your just a terrorist apologist. the fact that they intend to kill as many as possible, whereas the us and israel try to minimize casualties whenever possible is simply something you choose to ignore. to you a police man who accidentally shoots a civilian trying to stop a bank robbery should be executed for first degree murder, being that he is no better then a serial killer in your twisted eyes.
yes it is a silly game if you think that morality comes from numbers. you compared 9/11 to iraq. the simple fact is the hitler analogy is very appropriate. you believe the moral righteousness of a cause is based on its number of casualties. the fact is hitler lost far more civilians/soldiers then the us or britain. by your logic, he is morally superior. you already are known to completely ignore the reason behind deaths, the only thing you care about is the simple number.
beating a strawman? i didnt mention iraq and the un in that snippet did i? the us has not taken land since the spanish american war, we are not an empire. history is not on your side. we didn't go for oil, thats just an absurd reason. we could have simply appeased hussain and gotten all the oil we wanted. he doesn't drink the oil, he has to sell it. and well, your last line just missed the entire point of my first post didn't it. the arabs are weak because of the oil. they tried and failed to wipe israel off the face of the planet with their bought weapons. 3 times. i'm sorry, thats pretty good evidence of intention.
this is commonly known. its rather disturbing that someone so interested in the middle east as you seem doesn't know that bombs are laced with rat poison to act as anticoagulant in wounds.http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/poisonbomb020806.html
oh, you mean what i addressed in the other thread. its irrelevant. you post of reactions to suicide bombings, and you post exceptions to the rule if they are even true. the fact is this woman lay down in front of a giant heavily armored bulldozer which has a narrow field of view. she was one of many activists in a group, yet only one death? apparenlty israeli bulldoze opperators really suck at hitting static targets, or its not intentional. there are far more efficient methods of killing people then using slow moving bulldozers. not to mention the group eventually admitted it had doctored the series of photos by inserting pictures of her standing in front of a dozer wtih megaphone hours earlier, when in reality, she had spent the entire time on all fours kneeling without a megaphone in a way that probably got her killed. regardless, is this the best you can do? palestinians use suicide bombings almost daily at times, and other attacks even more often, all with undeniable murderous intention. yet this is all you can come up with?
just remember, its palestinians who use and trick even children, a14 yr olds with mental disability to blow up israelis. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/408359.html
i don't think my family would ever fight along with people who choose to side with the losers of ww1, sided and had a mufti that made deals with hitler in ww2 for the final solution in palestine, sided with the soviets and their evil empire in the cold war, saddam hussein in the gulf war... regardless of blood. nothing justifies the wave of terror of the palestinians. there are many people in the world poorer then even them, who face oppression, who do not stoop to nazi methods. the fact that palestinians were involved in terror even before 67's occupation is rather telling. the fact that your an apologist for those who poison the minds of palestinians and destroy the possibility of them having a state is rather telling. its your racism that blinds you to reality. its your racism that damages those you pretend to support.
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