The Agenda of Islam (long read)

kermalou

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2001
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===========================================
When you read this, try to avoid reacting
against it because you don't want this to be true.
Instead, try to read it and measure it against what
facts you actually know about this Islamic clash
with the west. The result won't make you happy but
it will make you understand what is going on in the
world today.

Professor Moshe Sharon teaches Islamic History
at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem.

This article appeared December 24, 2003.


THE AGENDA OF ISLAM - A WAR BETWEEN
CIVILIZATIONS

by Professor Moshe Sharon

There is no Fundamental Islam.

"Fundamentalism" is a word that came from the heart of the Christian religion. It means faith that
goes by the word of the Bible. Fundamental Christianity, or going with the Bible, does not mean
going around and killing people. There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam full stop.
The question is how the Koran is interpreted .

All of a sudden we see that the greatest interpreters of Islam are politicians in the western
world. They know better than all the speakers in the mosques, all those who deliver terrible sermons
against anything that is either Christian or Jewish. These western politicians know that there is good
Islam and bad Islam. They know even how to differentiate between the two, except that none of
them know how to read a word of Arabic.

The Language of Islam

You see, so much is covered by politically correct language that, in fact, the truth has been
lost. For example, when we speak about Islam in the west, we try to use our own language and
terminology. We speak about Islam in terms of democracy and fundamentalism, in terms of
parliamentarism and all kinds of terms, which we take from our own dictionary. One of my professors
and one of the greatest orientalists in the world says that doing this is like a cricket reporter
describing a cricket game in baseball terms. We cannot use for one culture or civilization the
language of another. For Islam, you've got to use
the language of Islam.

Driving Principles of Islam

Let me explain the principles that are driving the religion of Islam. Of course, every Moslem has
to acknowledge the fact that there is only one God. But it's not enough to say that there is only one
God. A Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. These are
the fundamentals of the religion that without them, one cannot be a Moslem. But beyond that, Islam is a civilization. It is a religion that gave first and foremost a wide and unique legal system that engulfs the individual, society and nations with rules of behaviour. If you are Moslem, you have to behave according to the rules of Islam which are set down in the Koran and which are very different than the teachings of the Bible.

The Bible

Let me explain the difference. The Bible is the creation of the spirit of a nation over a very,
very long period, if we talk from the point of view of the scholar, and let me remain scholarly. But
there is one thing that is important in the Bible. It leads to salvation. It leads to salvation in two
ways.

In Judaism, it leads to national salvation - not just a nation that wants to have a state, but a
nation that wants to serve God. That's the idea behind the Hebrew text of the Bible.

The New Testament that took the Hebrew Bible moves us toward personal salvation. So we have got
these two kinds of salvation, which, from time to time, meet each other.

But the key word is salvation. Personal salvation means that each individual is looked after
by God, Himself, who leads a person through His word to salvation. This is the idea in the Bible, whether
we are talking about the Old or the New Testament. All of the laws in the Bible, even to the minutest
ones, are, in fact directed toward this fact of salvation.

Secondly, there is another point in the Bible, which is highly important. This is the idea that man
was created in the image of God. Therefore, you don't just walk around and obliterate the image of
God. Many people, of course, used Biblical rules and turned them upside down. History has seen a lot of
massacres in the name of God and in the name of Jesus. But as religions, both Judaism and
Christianity in their fundamentals speak about honouring the image of God and the hope of
salvation. These are the two basic fundamentals.

The Essence of Islam

Now let's move to the essence of Islam. Islam was born with the idea that it should rule the
world.

Let's look, then, at the difference between these three religions. Judaism speaks about national
salvation - namely that at the end of the story, when the world becomes a better place, Israel will
be in its own land, ruled by its own king and serving God. Christianity speaks about the idea that
every single person in the world can be saved from his sins, while Islam speaks about ruling the world.
I can quote here in Arabic, but there is no point in quoting Arabic, so let me quote a verse in English.
"Allah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it should rule over all the religions."

The idea, then, is not that the whole world would become a Moslem world at this time, but that
the whole world would be subdued under the rule of Islam.

When the Islamic empire was established in 634 AD, within seven years - 640 - the core of the
empire was created. The rules that were taken from the Koran and from the tradition that was ascribed
to the prophet Mohammed, were translated into a real legal system. Jews and Christians could live under
Islam provided they paid poll tax and accepted Islamic superiority. Of course, they had to be
humiliated. And Jews and Christians living under Islam are humiliated to this very day.

Mohammed Held That All the Biblical Prophets Were Moslems

Mohammed did accept the existence of all the Biblical prophets before him. However he also said
that all these prophets were Moslems. Abraham was a Moslem. In fact, Adam himself was the first Moslem.
Isaac and Jacob and David and Solomon and Moses and Jesus were all Moslems, and all of them had writings similar to the Koran. Therefore, world history is Islamic history because all the heroes of history
were Moslems.

Furthermore, Moslems accept the fact that each of these prophets brought with him some kind of a
revelation. Moses, brought the Taurat, which is the Torah, and Jesus brought the Ingeel, which is the
Evangelion or Gospel - namely the New Testament.

The Bible versus the Koran

Why then is the Bible not similar to the Koran?

Mohammed explains that the Jews and Christians forged their books. Had they not been changed and
forged, they would have been identical to the Koran. But because Christians and Jews do have some truth,
Islam concedes that they cannot be completely destroyed by war [for now].

Nevertheless, the laws are very clear - Jews and Christians have no rights whatsoever to
independent existence. They can live under Islamic rule provided they keep to the rules that Islam
promulgates for them.

Islamic Rule and Jihad

What happens if Jews and Christians don't want to live under the rules of Islam? Then Islam has to
fight them and this fighting is called Jihad. Jihad means war against those people who don't want to
accept the Islamic superior rule. That's jihad. They may be Jews; they may be Christians; they may be
Polytheists. But since we don't have too many Polytheists left, at least not in the Middle East -
their war is against the Jews and Christians.

A few days ago, I received a pamphlet that was distributed in the world by bin Laden. He calls for jihad against America as the leader of the Christian world, not because America is the supporter of Israel, but
because Americans are desecrating Arabia with their filthy feet. There are Americans in Arabia where no Christians should be. In this pamphlet there is not a single word about Israel. Only that Americans are
desecrating the home of the prophet.

Two Houses

The Koran sees the world as divided into two - one part which has come under Islamic rule and one
part which is supposed to come under Islamic rule in the future. There is a division of the world which
is very clear. Every single person who starts studying Islam knows it. The world is described as
Dar al-Islam (the house of Islam) - that's the place where Islam rules - and the other part which is
called Dar al-Harb - the house of war. Not the "house of non-Muslims," but the "house of war." It
is this house of war which has to be, at the end of time, conquered. The world will continue to be in
the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule. This is the norm. Why? Because Allah says it's so in
the Koran. God has sent Mohammed with the true religion in order that the truth will overcome all
other religions.

Islamic Law

Within the Islamic vision of this world, there are rules that govern the lives of the Moslems
themselves, and these rules are very strict. In fundamentals, there are no differences between
schools of law.

However, there are four streams of factions within Islam with differences between them
concerning the minutiae of the laws. All over the Islamic world, countries have favored one or another
of these schools of laws. The strictest school of law is called Hanbali, mainly coming out of Saudi
Arabia. There are no games there, no playing around with the meanings of words. If the Koran speaks
about war, then it's war.

There are various perspectives in Islam with different interpretations over the centuries. There
were good people that were very enlightened in Islam that tried to understand things differently. They
even brought traditions from the mouth of the prophet that women and children should not be killed
in war.

These more liberal streams do exist, but there is one thing that is very important for us to
remember. The Hanbali school of law is extremely strict, and today this is the school that is behind
most of the terrorist powers. Even if we talk about the existence of other schools of Islamic law, when
we're talking about fighting against the Jews, or fighting against the Christian world led by America,
it is the Hanbali school of law that is being followed.

Islam and Territory

This civilization created one very important, fundamental rule about territory. Any territory that
comes under Islamic rule cannot be de-Islamized. Even if at one time or another, the [non-Moslem]
enemy takes over the territory that was under Islamic rule, it is considered to be perpetually
Islamic.

This is why whenever you hear about the Arab/Israeli conflict, you hear - territory,
territory, territory. There are other aspects to the conflict, but territory is highly important.

The Christian civilization has not only been seen as a religious opponent, but as a dam stopping
Islam from achieving its final goal for which it was created.

Islam was created to be the army of God, the army of Allah. Every single Moslem is a soldier in
this army. Every single Moslem that dies in fighting for the spread of Islam is a shaheed (martyr) no
matter how he dies, because - and this is very important - this is an eternal war between the two civilizations. It's not a war that stops. This war is there because it was created by Allah.
Islam must be the ruler. This is a war that will not end.

Islam and Peace

Peace in Islam can exist only within the Islamic world; peace can only be between Moslem and
Moslem.

With the non-Moslem world or non-Moslem opponents, there can be only one solution - a cease
fire until Moslems can gain more power. It is an eternal war until the end of days. Peace can only
come if the Islamic side wins. The two civilizations can only have periods of cease-fires. And this idea
of cease-fire is based on a very important historical precedent, which, incidentally, Yasser Arafat referred to when he spoke in Johannesburg after he signed the Oslo agreement with Israel.

Let me remind you that the document speaks of peace - you wouldn't believe that you are reading!
You would think that you were reading some science fiction piece. I mean when you read it, you can't
believe that this was signed by Israelis who are actually acquainted with Islamic policies and
civilization.

A few weeks after the Oslo agreement was signed, Arafat went to Johannesburg, and in a mosque
there he made a speech in which he apologized, saying, "Do you think I signed something with the
Jews which is contrary to the rules of Islam?" (I have obtained a copy of Arafat's recorded speech so
I heard it from his own mouth.) Arafat continued, "That's not so. I'm doing exactly what the prophet
Mohammed did."

Whatever the prophet is supposed have done becomes a precedent. What Arafat was saying was,
"Remember the story of Hodaybiya." The prophet had made an agreement there with the tribe of Kuraish
for 10 years. But then he trained 10,000 soldiers and within two years marched on their city of Mecca.
He, of course, found some kind of pretext.

Thus, in Islamic jurisdiction, it became a legal precedent which states that you are only
allowed to make peace for a maximum of 10 years. Secondly, at the first instance that you are able,
you must renew the jihad [thus breaking the "peace" agreement].

In Israel, it has taken over 50 years in this country for our people to understand that they
cannot speak about [permanent] peace with Moslems. It will take another 50 years for the western world
to understand that they have got a state of war with the Islamic civilization that is virile and strong.
This should be understood: When we talk about war and peace, we are not talking in Belgium, French,
English, or German terms. We are talking about war and peace in Islamic terms.

Cease-fire as a Tactical Choice

What makes Islam accept cease-fire? Only one thing - when the enemy is too strong. It is a
tactical choice.

Sometimes, he may have to agree to a cease-fire in the most humiliating conditions. It's
allowed because Mohammed accepted a cease-fire under humiliating conditions. That's what Arafat said to them in Johannesburg. When western policy makers hear these things, they answer, "What are you
talking about? You are in the Middle Ages. You don't understand the mechanisms of politics."

Which mechanisms of politics? There are no mechanisms of politics where power is. And I want to
tell you one thing - we haven't seen the end of it, because the minute a radical Moslem power has
atomic, chemical or biological weapons, they will use it. I have no doubt about that.

Now, since we face war and we know that we cannot get more than an impermanent cease-fire, one
has to ask himself what is the major component of an Israeli/Arab cease-fire. It is that the Islamic side is weak and your side is strong. The relations between Israel and the Arab world in the last 50 years
since the establishment of our State has been based only on this idea, the deterrent power.

Wherever You Have Islam, You Will Have War

The reason that we have what we have in Yugoslavia and other places is because Islam
succeeded into entering these countries. Wherever you have Islam, you will have war. It grows out of
the attitude of Islamic civilization.

What are the poor people in the Philippines being killed for? What's happening between Pakistan
and India?

Islamic Infiltration

Furthermore, there is another fact that must be remembered. The Islamic world has not only the
attitude of open war, but there's also war by infiltration.

One of the things which the western world is not paying enough attention to is the tremendous
growth of Islamic power in the western world. What happened in America and the Twin Towers is not
something that came from the outside. And if America doesn't wake up, one day the Americans will find
themselves in a chemical war and most likely in an atomic war - inside the U.S.

End of Days

It is highly important to understand how a civilization sees the end of days. In Christianity
and in Judaism, we know exactly what is the vision of the end of days.

In Judaism, it is going to be as in Isaiah - peace between nations, not just one nation, but
between all nations. People will not have any more need for weapons and nature will be changed - a
beautiful end of days and the kingdom of God on earth.

Christianity goes as far as Revelation to see a day that Satan himself is obliterated. There are
no more powers of evil. That's the vision.

I'm speaking now as a historian. I try to understand how Islam sees the end of days. In the
end of days, Islam sees a world that is totally Moslem, completely Moslem under the rule of Islam.
Complete and final victory.

Christians will not exist, because according to many Islamic traditions, the Moslems who are in
hell will have to be replaced by somebody and they'll be replaced by the Christians.

The Jews will no longer exist, because before the coming of the end of days, there is going to be
a war against the Jews where all Jews should be killed. I'm quoting now from the heart of Islamic
tradition, from the books that are read by every child in school. The Jews will all be killed.
They'll be running away and they'll be hiding behind trees and rocks, and on that day Allah will give
mouths to the rocks and trees and they will say, "Oh Moslem come here, there is a Jew behind me, kill
him." Without this, the end of days cannot come. This is a fundamental of Islam.

Is There a Possibility to End This Dance of War?

The question which we in Israel are asking ourselves is what will happen to our country? Is
there a possibility to end this dance of war?

The answer is, "No. Not in the foreseeable future." What we can do is reach a situation where
for a few years we may have relative quiet.

But for Islam, the establishment of the state of Israel was a reverse of Islamic history. First,
Islamic territory was taken away from Islam by Jews. You know by now that this can never be accepted, not
even one meter. So everyone who thinks Tel Aviv is safe is making a grave mistake. Territory, which at
one time was dominated by Islamic rule, now has become non-Moslem. Non-Moslems are independent of
Islamic rule; Jews have created their own independent state. It is anathema.

And (this is the worst) Israel, a non-Moslem state, is ruling over Moslems. It is unthinkable
that non-Moslems should rule over Moslems.

I believe that Western civilization should hold together and support each other. Whether this
will happen or not, I don't know. Israel finds itself on the front lines of this war. It needs the
help of its sister civilization. It needs the help of America and Europe. It needs the help of the
Christian world. One thing I am sure about, this help can be given by individual Christians who see
this as the road to salvation.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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Cliff Notes: Christians and Jews should join together in an inevitable religious war with Islam due to the very nature of Islam.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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OMG, an Israeli says Islam hates Jews and Christian and everyone should join together to fight all Islam. That's a huge surprise......
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
OMG, an Israeli says Islam hates Jews and Christian and everyone should join together to fight all Islam. That's a huge surprise......

Check the link that I supplied. This is from a Muslim.

The Trouble with Islam

The Trouble with Islam is an open letter from me, a Muslim voice of reform, to concerned citizens worldwide -- Muslim and not. It's about why my faith community needs to come to terms with the diversity of ideas, beliefs and people in our universe, and why non-Muslims have a pivotal role in helping us get there.

The themes I'm exploring with the utmost honesty include:

the inferior treatment of women in Islam;
the Jew-bashing that so many Muslims persistently engage in; and
the continuing scourge of slavery in countries ruled by Islamic regimes.




 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
76
Originally posted by: rchiu
OMG, an Israeli says Islam hates Jews and Christian and everyone should join together to fight all Islam. That's a huge surprise......

She is Canadian now.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
299
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0
What really worries me is that the foundation of western civilization is being conquered by Islam at this very moment. It's a "peaceful" invasion. In the next 100 years Europe will be dominated by Islam because 1. Immigration from Muslim countries is very high. 2. The native Europeans reproduce at pathetic rates. 3. The Muslim immigrants reproduce at a very high rate.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,007
314
126
No worry from Islam. The U.S. will long since be overrun by fundementalist (read 'radical') "illegal alien" long before Islam takes even a token hold.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Just wondering, there are close to 10 million Muslims in the United States, and if they are as this author described, where is this war "against those people who don't want to accept the Islamic superior rule."?

Little fact that people may not know. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and less than 20% lives in the Middle East. There are large Mulsim poplulations in China, Africa, Indonesia and America. Many of those Muslims live peacefully with people from other religion.

If you really want to understand Islam, go to one of the many Mosques in the United States and talk to some real Muslim instead of listening or reading this kind of biased junk.

And no, I am not a Muslim, but I see enough of the world and meet enough people to know what this author is trying to incite animosity towards Muslim and divert people's attention away from the real cause of conflicts between Muslims and Jews/Christian.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,859
6,394
126
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Cliff Notes: Christians and Jews should join together in an inevitable religious war with Islam due to the very nature of Islam.

Without saying as much, that's what this author is advocating. Why else write such rubbish?

Kid yourself not, Jews and Christians believe the same thing this author tries to pin on Muslims alone. The Jew believes the Messiah will establish Israel as the ruling Nation, the Christian believes they will rule the Earth as followers of Jesus. Christians certainly believe in Infiltration, Missionaries have already flooded into Iraq in order to replace Islam with Christianity. On this very board and in recent days Christians have claimed that they will Judge the World. About the only difference between the 3 is that Jews do not Proselytize.
 

BugsBunny1078

Banned
Jan 11, 2004
910
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Christians are working hard every day to save muslim lives. All those who are converted will be safe from what is to come.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
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this author is trying to incite animosity towards Muslim and divert people's attention away from the real cause of conflicts between Muslims and Jews/Christian.

So what is the real cause of the conflict?
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Cliff Notes: Christians and Jews should join together in an inevitable religious war with Islam due to the very nature of Islam.

Without saying as much, that's what this author is advocating. Why else write such rubbish?

Kid yourself not, Jews and Christians believe the same thing this author tries to pin on Muslims alone. The Jew believes the Messiah will establish Israel as the ruling Nation, the Christian believes they will rule the Earth as followers of Jesus. Christians certainly believe in Infiltration, Missionaries have already flooded into Iraq in order to replace Islam with Christianity. On this very board and in recent days Christians have claimed that they will Judge the World. About the only difference between the 3 is that Jews do not Proselytize.

My heart wants to believe this but my mind will not let me.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
81
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: rchiu
OMG, an Israeli says Islam hates Jews and Christian and everyone should join together to fight all Islam. That's a huge surprise......

Check the link that I supplied. This is from a Muslim.

The Trouble with Islam

The Trouble with Islam is an open letter from me, a Muslim voice of reform, to concerned citizens worldwide -- Muslim and not. It's about why my faith community needs to come to terms with the diversity of ideas, beliefs and people in our universe, and why non-Muslims have a pivotal role in helping us get there.

The themes I'm exploring with the utmost honesty include:

the inferior treatment of women in Islam;
the Jew-bashing that so many Muslims persistently engage in; and
the continuing scourge of slavery in countries ruled by Islamic regimes.

So one voice of dissent from a "Muslim" justifies bias against the religion?

Talk about anecdotal...
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Just wondering, there are close to 10 million Muslims in the United States, and if they are as this author described, where is this war "against those people who don't want to accept the Islamic superior rule."?

I worry that this hasn't happened yet because they are still a very small minority. I do worry that in the future we might have a small violent group emerge that wants to separate themselves and establish an independent state ruled by Islam. It just seems to be a common occurence that occurs in other parts of the world.

Little fact that people may not know. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and less than 20% lives in the Middle East. There are large Mulsim poplulations in China, Africa, Indonesia and America. Many of those Muslims live peacefully with people from other religion.

But it's still a fact that many of the terrorist problems around the world are linked to Islamic terrorists. Most Muslims are peaceful but a small minority are not. Unfortunately, this small minority might be too big that it causes problems.

If you really want to understand Islam, go to one of the many Mosques in the United States and talk to some real Muslim instead of listening or reading this kind of biased junk.

And no, I am not a Muslim, but I see enough of the world and meet enough people to know what this author is trying to incite animosity towards Muslim and divert people's attention away from the real cause of conflicts between Muslims and Jews/Christian.

Why a Mosque in the US? Why not a Mosque in other parts of the world? It just seems to me that a lot of non-Muslims are bending over backwards making excuses for Islam. They tell us to look at Islam in the US as an example of true Islam. But only a small percentage of Muslims live in the US. Why are they the true representative of Islam? I heard Muslims in Pakistan speaking of how they dream of a world ruled by a Caliph(sp?) and how all non-Muslims would then be taxed. I heard Imans in other countries make speaches full of hate and inciting violence.

But I'm supposed to ignore them and listen only to a non-Muslim?
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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0
Originally posted by: StormRider
I worry that this hasn't happened yet because they are still a very small minority. I do worry that in the future we might have a small violent group emerge that wants to separate themselves and establish an independent state ruled by Islam. It just seems to be a common occurence that occurs in other parts of the world.

Hehe, you need to worry about those hardcore Christian right malitia more then the Muslim in this country about committing violant acts and wanting to be independant.

But it's still a fact that many of the terrorist problems around the world are linked to Islamic terrorists. Most Muslims are peaceful but a small minority are not. Unfortunately, this small minority might be too big that it causes problems.

Do you see people saying all Irish are inherently evil and violent because of the acts of IRA? Again, you need to be very careful in labeling the entire group of people because of acts of small minority. You also need to look at why those people commit terrorism and if the cause religion. In my opinion, those terrorist groups all have agenda that are not religion related, they just use religion to rally their people. Most of the conflicts are political and territorial that are not religion driven.

Why a Mosque in the US? Why not a Mosque in other parts of the world? It just seems to me that a lot of non-Muslims are bending over backwards making excuses for Islam. They tell us to look at Islam in the US as an example of true Islam. But only a small percentage of Muslims live in the US. Why are they the true representative of Islam? I heard Muslims in Pakistan speaking of how they dream of a world ruled by a Caliph(sp?) and how all non-Muslims would then be taxed. I heard Imans in other countries make speaches full of hate and inciting violence.

But I'm supposed to ignore them and listen only to a non-Muslim?
Fine, go to a mosque in Malaysia, Indonesia, China or many other countries where they preach non-violent message that are not tainted by political conflicts. Or better yet, read some books from author like Karen Armstrong, a British who was an ex-Catholic nun and have years of experiences with Judaism and Islam, and have no political agenda on her table.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
0
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
This is the best argument against organized religion I have ever read.

Your post is the best example of the need for selective breeding I've read.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
81
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: rchiu
Just wondering, there are close to 10 million Muslims in the United States, and if they are as this author described, where is this war "against those people who don't want to accept the Islamic superior rule."?

I worry that this hasn't happened yet because they are still a very small minority. I do worry that in the future we might have a small violent group emerge that wants to separate themselves and establish an independent state ruled by Islam. It just seems to be a common occurence that occurs in other parts of the world.

Little fact that people may not know. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and less than 20% lives in the Middle East. There are large Mulsim poplulations in China, Africa, Indonesia and America. Many of those Muslims live peacefully with people from other religion.

But it's still a fact that many of the terrorist problems around the world are linked to Islamic terrorists. Most Muslims are peaceful but a small minority are not. Unfortunately, this small minority might be too big that it causes problems.

If you really want to understand Islam, go to one of the many Mosques in the United States and talk to some real Muslim instead of listening or reading this kind of biased junk.

And no, I am not a Muslim, but I see enough of the world and meet enough people to know what this author is trying to incite animosity towards Muslim and divert people's attention away from the real cause of conflicts between Muslims and Jews/Christian.

Why a Mosque in the US? Why not a Mosque in other parts of the world? It just seems to me that a lot of non-Muslims are bending over backwards making excuses for Islam. They tell us to look at Islam in the US as an example of true Islam. But only a small percentage of Muslims live in the US. Why are they the true representative of Islam? I heard Muslims in Pakistan speaking of how they dream of a world ruled by a Caliph(sp?) and how all non-Muslims would then be taxed. I heard Imans in other countries make speaches full of hate and inciting violence.

But I'm supposed to ignore them and listen only to a non-Muslim?

Nice sig

People who generalize are all stupid! :|
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: rchiu
Just wondering, there are close to 10 million Muslims in the United States, and if they are as this author described, where is this war "against those people who don't want to accept the Islamic superior rule."?

I worry that this hasn't happened yet because they are still a very small minority. I do worry that in the future we might have a small violent group emerge that wants to separate themselves and establish an independent state ruled by Islam. It just seems to be a common occurence that occurs in other parts of the world.

Little fact that people may not know. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and less than 20% lives in the Middle East. There are large Mulsim poplulations in China, Africa, Indonesia and America. Many of those Muslims live peacefully with people from other religion.

But it's still a fact that many of the terrorist problems around the world are linked to Islamic terrorists. Most Muslims are peaceful but a small minority are not. Unfortunately, this small minority might be too big that it causes problems.

If you really want to understand Islam, go to one of the many Mosques in the United States and talk to some real Muslim instead of listening or reading this kind of biased junk.

And no, I am not a Muslim, but I see enough of the world and meet enough people to know what this author is trying to incite animosity towards Muslim and divert people's attention away from the real cause of conflicts between Muslims and Jews/Christian.

Why a Mosque in the US? Why not a Mosque in other parts of the world? It just seems to me that a lot of non-Muslims are bending over backwards making excuses for Islam. They tell us to look at Islam in the US as an example of true Islam. But only a small percentage of Muslims live in the US. Why are they the true representative of Islam? I heard Muslims in Pakistan speaking of how they dream of a world ruled by a Caliph(sp?) and how all non-Muslims would then be taxed. I heard Imans in other countries make speaches full of hate and inciting violence.

But I'm supposed to ignore them and listen only to a non-Muslim?

Nice sig

People who generalize are all stupid! :|


I'm not generalizing. ;)

I never said that all Muslims were evil or terrorists. I just think some of you guys are going out of your way to ignore some things that don't fit into your preconceived judgements.

Sure, it would be nice if the sun was the center of the universe, but that doesn't make me ignore any evidence that might suggest otherwise.


 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
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Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: StormRider
I worry that this hasn't happened yet because they are still a very small minority. I do worry that in the future we might have a small violent group emerge that wants to separate themselves and establish an independent state ruled by Islam. It just seems to be a common occurence that occurs in other parts of the world.

Hehe, you need to worry about those hardcore Christian right malitia more then the Muslim in this country about committing violant acts and wanting to be independant.

But it's still a fact that many of the terrorist problems around the world are linked to Islamic terrorists. Most Muslims are peaceful but a small minority are not. Unfortunately, this small minority might be too big that it causes problems.

Do you see people saying all Irish are inherently evil and violent because of the acts of IRA? Again, you need to be very careful in labeling the entire group of people because of acts of small minority. You also need to look at why those people commit terrorism and if the cause religion. In my opinion, those terrorist groups all have agenda that are not religion related, they just use religion to rally their people. Most of the conflicts are political and territorial that are not religion driven.

Why a Mosque in the US? Why not a Mosque in other parts of the world? It just seems to me that a lot of non-Muslims are bending over backwards making excuses for Islam. They tell us to look at Islam in the US as an example of true Islam. But only a small percentage of Muslims live in the US. Why are they the true representative of Islam? I heard Muslims in Pakistan speaking of how they dream of a world ruled by a Caliph(sp?) and how all non-Muslims would then be taxed. I heard Imans in other countries make speaches full of hate and inciting violence.

But I'm supposed to ignore them and listen only to a non-Muslim?
Fine, go to a mosque in Malaysia, Indonesia, China or many other countries where they preach non-violent message that are not tainted by political conflicts. Or better yet, read some books from author like Karen Armstrong, a British who was an ex-Catholic nun and have years of experiences with Judaism and Islam, and have no political agenda on her table.

Don't you think that this is selective data hunting? Go to Malaysia, Indonesia, China or many other countries where they preach non-violent message that are not tainted by political conflicts? In other words, ignore all the things that might contradict your preconceived ideas?

I prefer to look at all the evidence before trying to make a judgement. And I still haven't made up any judgements. My thoughts change every day as I process new information.

And again where did I say that all Muslims are evil or terrorists? The only thing that I've said is that the small minority that are seems to be larger than I feel comfortable with.

Sure the Irish has the IRA but the IRA is so small (and limited to a small part of the world) compared to Islamic terrorists. Islamic terrorists seem to be striking all over the world.

And I disagree with your belief that Islamic terrorist groups all have an agenda that are not religiously motivated. I believe just the opposite.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Want to guess who said this;



"The religious crusade is upon us, it has a begining
far removed from our shores with indoctrination of the
Islamic warrior's beginning even before Israel was declared a
Nation.
Only now that the war has reached her shores, should the
might of the Jewish nation and her whore the United states come
together to fall before Alla"

People do understand that this is a religious war,, they just don't
want to say it..


For those of us that need a bit more than religion to prove the
existance of God,,,,, It will be real interesting to see whose God
Kicks whose gods ass....
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
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if we were to treat all religious texts literally we wouldn't be here now.
i am sure there are quite a number of christians and jews that would like every other religion vanquished from the face of this earth, and see any non-believers suffer eternal punishment. please read revelations.