The A.I. revolt has begun! Robot kills Man!

[Howard]

Either LOTO wasn't done correctly or the robot was in "troubleshooting" mode.

Either way, the technician is likely at fault.

 

[MongGrel]

Lockout/tagout, dammit.

This.

Who needs the unions and worker safety and collective bargaining I guess.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Plant/OSHA/Union regs require machines to be shut off when worked on.

 

[ControlD]

Plant/OSHA/Union regs require machines to be shut off when worked on.

That isn't true, and this is also a European plant with different safety regulations.

Plant safety / OHSA only require that a machine is in a safe state before entering. There are numerous cases when qualified personnel need to enter machines while they are powered on (such as commissioning robot cells as this person was likely doing). Those procedures are agreed upon by plant safety and the union before a machine is installed.

 

[MongGrel]

That isn't true, and this is also a European plant with different safety regulations.

Plant safety / OHSA only require that a machine is in a safe state before entering. There are numerous cases when qualified personnel need to enter machines while they are powered on (such as commissioning robot cells as this person was likely doing). Those procedures are agreed upon by plant safety and the union before a machine is installed.

It is true in a real plant in the US.

I have no idea about Europe.

Of course why some companies in the US pushed for a STAR OSHA rating from the Union that was there just prior to phasing them out and fucked them up the ass shortly thereafter.

Then outsourced everything mechanically related.

It was just a ass fucking in progress after that point.

 

[ControlD]

It is true in a real plant in the US.

It is NOT true. I have been doing this for 20+ years and I have been inside live machines for almost every major automotive manufacturer, USA and abroad. Every plant has procedures in place for entering machines while they are powered on. You would never get a machine commissioned otherwise.

 

[MongGrel]

It is NOT true. I have been doing this for 20+ years and I have been inside live machines for almost every major automotive manufacturer, USA and abroad. Every plant has procedures in place for entering machines while they are powered on. You would never get a machine commissioned otherwise.

I've been doing it 30+ years, and my dad was a Foreman at GM and my mother was a line worker and active in the Union there.

I guess that's why I was a product of a divorce there, and one of my Grandfathers was a Tool and DieMaker at Chrysler building tanks during WWII and several Uncles that were engineers at GM and Saturn.

Don't tell me about procedures for a powered on machine, I used to hear my dad come home a lot bitching about how they were locked out and shut down for safety features growing up.

Having power to a machine when it is a being worked on is a recipe for someone getting fucked up.

 

[mmntech]

So how does this end?
Terminators?
Matrix?
Borg?
Reaper invasion?
Will Smith?

Seriously though, sounds to me like there were some serious lapses in safety. Not sure how things work in Germany but there will probably be a full investigation by their equivalent of the Ministry of Labour. Having worked on jobsites with big machines, that's the sort of stuff you don't want to muck around with.

A 22 year old kid with a giant robot,kind of says it all.

Pff, in Japan he'd already be a 10 year war veteran in the mech squadron.

 

[chimaxi83]

It is true in a real plant in the US.

I have no idea about ANYTHING, EVER.

Of course why some companies in the US pushed for a STAR OSHA rating from the Union that was there just prior to phasing them out and fucked them up the ass shortly thereafter.

Then outsourced everything mechanically related.

It was just a ass fucking in progress after that point.

FTFY

 

[MongGrel]

FTFY

Hardly.

Twat.

That was a pretty lame ass attempt to begin with.

You fail.

 

[ControlD]

I've been doing it 30+ years, and my dad was a Foreman at GM and my mother was a line worker and active in the Union there.

I guess that's why I was a product of a divorce there, and one of my Grandfathers was a Tool and DieMaker at Chrysler building tanks during WWII and several Uncles that were engineers at GM and Saturn.

Don't tell me about procedures for a powered on machine, I used to hear my dad come home a lot bitching about how they were locked out and shut down for safety features growing up.

Having power to a machine when it is a being worked on is a recipe for someone getting fucked up.

Well, I don't know what to say. I do it on a regular basis (daily actually) with union and safety approval. I am not dreaming that up and I'm not sure why I would make that up. I'm sure any of the other controls people here would say the same. For sure the normal procedure is to power off and lock out the machine. However, every plant also has with power on safety approved procedures as well, especially with the newer more robust safety systems out these days.

I almost always work in powertrain operations however. I know that vehicle assembly plants have different safety protocols.

 

[MongGrel]

The last place I was at had several HAAS VMC's, and Lathes.

They had to be powered off, and if any safety features were disabled like a lot of tool shops do in various ways, HAAS would not allow their techs to even do any repair work on them.

 

[Engineer]

Lockout/tagout, dammit.

Doesn't work when you're the guy installing and programming the robot. Of course, that's what the 'deadman' switch is for. I've had robots that run 100% on the teach pendant and literally went a different direction that what I anticipated.....deadman switch most likely saved me from injury or death (this robot was capable of lifting 300 pounds and moving damn fast).

 

[Engineer]

It is NOT true. I have been doing this for 20+ years and I have been inside live machines for almost every major automotive manufacturer, USA and abroad. Every plant has procedures in place for entering machines while they are powered on. You would never get a machine commissioned otherwise.

This (at least from the machine builder point of view).

 

[ControlD]

The last place I was at had several HAAS VMC's, and Lathes.

They had to be powered off, and if any safety features were disabled like a lot of tool shops do in various ways, HAAS would not allow their techs to even do any repair work on them.

Yeah, I can see that being the protocol for those types of machines for sure.

In a GM plant for example (and really every major auto manufacturer) robot cells are treated with special safety procedures.

If anyone is interested, this is what we are talking about:

Part of the commissioning of a robot is simply teaching all of the pick up and drop off points that the robot has to service. If you have a robot inside a guarded area, you HAVE to be inside the guarding with the robot to teach these points. You simply cannot see what is going on any other way.

Robots have a pendent that is basically a small handheld controller that allows someone to position the robot, clamp/unclamp the end tooling and teach points. When the robot is in manual mode and the pendent is active, that robot will only accept commands from that pendent. To move the robot or control the end tooling you have to engage a live man switch that is monitored through dual channel safety circuits.

So, you can have the machine locked and AND powered on to commission a robot cell. The safety door is open with the technician's lock in the tongue. The rest of the machine besides the robot is in a controls off state. The robot however can still be operated with the pendent. If you don't pay attention to what you are doing, you can injure or kill yourself (for example by clamping the gripper while you are inside it). Whenever we install a machine for VW for example, we first have a long meeting with the union and plant safety to discuss how robot commissioning will be handled. Same for GM, Ford, etc. But all these plants have power on tasks approved for machine maintenance and commissioning. You would never get such a machine running otherwise.

 

[MongGrel]

This (at least from the machine builder point of view).

... I've built many robotic assembly lines myself over the years...

I usually agree with you...

 

[MongGrel]

Yeah, I can see that being the protocol for those types of machines for sure.

In a GM plant for example (and really every major auto manufacturer) robot cells are treated with special safety procedures.

If anyone is interested, this is what we are talking about:

Part of the commissioning of a robot is simply teaching all of the pick up and drop off points that the robot has to service. If you have a robot inside a guarded area, you HAVE to be inside the guarding with the robot to teach these points. You simply cannot see what is going on any other way.

Robots have a pendent that is basically a small handheld controller that allows someone to position the robot, clamp/unclamp the end tooling and teach points. When the robot is in manual mode and the pendent is active, that robot will only accept commands from that pendent. To move the robot or control the end tooling you have to engage a live man switch that is monitored through dual channel safety circuits.

So, you can have the machine locked and AND powered on to commission a robot cell. The safety door is open with the technician's lock in the tongue. The rest of the machine besides the robot is in a controls off state. The robot however can still be operated with the pendent. If you don't pay attention to what you are doing, you can injure or kill yourself (for example by clamping the gripper while you are inside it). Whenever we install a machine for VW for example, we first have a long meeting with the union and plant safety to discuss how robot commissioning will be handled. Same for GM, Ford, etc. But all these plants have power on tasks approved for machine maintenance and commissioning. You would never get such a machine running otherwise.

Yes, I was working with FANUC controllers and similar robots as far back as the mid 80's.

The place I was at was probably one of the earliest ones, had one like that that actually had a vacuum suction on it to pick it up a glue syringe to apply it to and alternator bridge and placed the in three spots, rinse lather repeat on a whole tray of them.

 

[ControlD]

Yes, I was working with FANUC controllers and similar robots as far back as the mid 80's.

Well, if you were working on them in the present, you would know the modern safety procedures

Robot safety has come a LONG way since the 1980's.

 

[MongGrel]

Kinda sucked even in the 80's even they were trying to make shit like that off and make it fully automated and GM was shipping them to Mexico even then. when they were getting ready to wipe the whole manufacturing base in Anderson Indiana area out.

Several Large GM plants died, over a dozen Delco Plants, Borg Warner Gear in the area, were may others in the area.

I went up for my dad's funeral a few years back and drove my wife around trying to look for things, all the manufacturing had been bulldozed or closed and shuttered.

They finally did, even when they shipped the robots back on a regular basis and other production machines because they didn't have the tech to repair or maintain them.

 

[MongGrel]

Well, if you were working on them in the present, you would know the modern safety procedures

Robot safety has come a LONG way since the 1980's.

I was still running HAAS VMC's and programing them with MasterCam tilll about a month ago.

I used to be the Shop Steward and the head Safety guy in the Union at Honeywell Space and Navigation down here till they fucked us about 5 years ago for 10 years prior to that.

I was the first person the main OSHA rep talked to when Honeywell Clearwater went for STAR certification.

It was a years long process, more or less, Honeywell got their reduced insurance, I got fucked.

They dumped the Union right after that, they just new having the Union there would increase their odds of certification then fucked everyone left up the ass.

A couple guys that had been there 20+ years saw it coming, it was just politics at the time.

 

[BUTCH1]

Lockout/tagout, dammit.

Ding! ding!, winner. your supposed to de-energize any machinery your working on and put a tag on the breaker notifying anyone NOT to start it.

 

[Engineer]

... I've built many robotic assembly lines myself over the years...

I usually agree with you...

I simply don't know how you're going to build some of these cells unless you're right up inside the guts of the cells. Now you don't necessarily need to have the robot set to 100% teach pendant speeds (not all robots support this anyway). You may have it set to max 20% speed just for rough-in purposes. Still can be scary when you're right up inside the cell (beside the place or pick points) trying to run at 20%.


We try to video our stuff now (phones everywhere) so we can analyze what's going on with picking / placing / general movements. Movements at a slow speed may not be the same path at high speed (as the robot controller interpolates points somewhat different at higher speeds unless you have it go to a ZERO point (i.e. no radius moves, etc).

Have seen several programmers hit with robots. Have nearly been hit myself a few times.

Haven't programmed one in many years though. Have set settings on them recently and modified general code but no movements. I usually program the cell PLC controllers and let another guy program the robot (he's much more on top of them than I am currently). I do design the cell electrical systems including robots and safety circuits though.

By the way, I'm not advocating anyone other than the guy holding the teach pendant with dead-man circuit go anywhere near the equipment like this. Without some sort of dead man safety handheld device, you're just asking to get killed, especially if running anywhere near full speeds.

Here's one of the last 'big boy' robots that I and the other guy worked on. Uses lasers and a vision system to find the brake drums (up to 150 pounds each) and unload them from the pallets. Then stacks the plywood between layers and finally removes and stacks the pallets. Starts over by conveying a new pallet in once old one gone. The openings are guarded with light curtains with the ones on the conveyor set up to allow the pallets to enter via a certain sensor sequence without stopping the robot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNEloS7rU4E

 

[Jeff7]

Doesn't work when you're the guy installing and programming the robot. Of course, that's what the 'deadman' switch is for. I've had robots that run 100% on the teach pendant and literally went a different direction that what I anticipated.....deadman switch most likely saved me from injury or death (this robot was capable of lifting 300 pounds and moving damn fast).

Good point.

I wonder then if we'll ever get details on how this happened. Place your bets on "operator error."

 

[TheGardener]

Could be the perfect crime. Malaware takes over robot's programming to kill. Then it reprograms the robot app to delete the malicious code and any evidence.

 

[TheGardener]

Robot had job goes wrong. Good news, no one loses his member.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k0bzMWFNls