The 2 ( 3 !!!) ways to cool the planet

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,989
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[EDIT: At post 70 here, Ocean Pasture Restoration is introduced as a viable potential means of REDUCING CO2 in our atmosphere]
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Reading article from 2 days ago in NYTimes by expert Dr. David Keith.

David Keith is a professor of applied physics and of public policy at Harvard, where he led the development of the university’s solar engineering research program. He is also a co-host of the podcast “Energy vs Climate” and the founder and a board member of the company Carbon Engineering, which provides technology to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.


He's personally invested in carbon removal, started a company (Carbon Engineering) that's all about it. But he argues that geo-engineering is a real possibility, creating a reflective layer in the upper atmosphere using sulfur distributed by high flying airplanes and/or making low clouds more reflective by distributing salt into them.

A parameter he talks about is what it would/will take to decrease average global temperatures by a degree. I'm not seeing it, figure he's talking about Celsius, but is he? Working in the USA, it's possible he means Fahrenheit. What do you make of it?
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The summary paragraph at the end of the opinion essay:

Cooling the planet to reduce human suffering in this century will require carbon removal or solar geoengineering or both. The trade-offs between them are uncertain because little comparative research has been done. The fact that one or both are taboo in some green circles is a dreadful misstep of contemporary environmentalism. Climate justice demands fast action to cut emissions and serious exploration of pathways to a cooler future.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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Humans are notoriously terrible about making shit worse when trying to make it better on extremely large scales, doubly so when the natural world is involved. There's a near 100% chance that the only thing geoengineering will accomplish is just rendering the planet even more uninhabitable.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,439
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Hasn't it been shown that planting trees is the most cost-effective way to reduce greenhouse gasses short of actually reducing greenhouse gas production?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,989
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Hasn't it been shown that planting trees is the most cost-effective way to reduce greenhouse gasses short of actually reducing greenhouse gas production?
Well, David Keith does discuss this in the article. If coaxed, I could copy/paste what he says here...

Hit this:

 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,989
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136
Humans are notoriously terrible about making shit worse when trying to make it better on extremely large scales, doubly so when the natural world is involved. There's a near 100% chance that the only thing geoengineering will accomplish is just rendering the planet even more uninhabitable.
Could you back off a couple percentage points? 100% :rolleyes:
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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Hasn't it been shown that planting trees is the most cost-effective way to reduce greenhouse gasses short of actually reducing greenhouse gas production?
Kinda, problem is you have to remove the carbon from the carbon cycle. Just growing a tree traps it into the tree, but if it falls over and rots, all that carbon goes right back up. You gotta grow something, cut it down, then bury it deep underground where it won't rot. Like a coal mine.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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Could you back off a couple percentage points? 100% :rolleyes:
Hey, present me with a world-scale geoengineering project that we won't likely fuck up, and that we can disable within a short timeframe, and I'd be willing to listen. The most relevant ones I've heard sound absolutely bonkers though.
 
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dank69

Lifer
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Kinda, problem is you have to remove the carbon from the carbon cycle. Just growing a tree traps it into the tree, but if it falls over and rots, all that carbon goes right back up. You gotta grow something, cut it down, then bury it deep underground where it won't rot. Like a coal mine.
Unless we convert it back to building materials before it gets to the rotting stage.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,411
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Unless we convert it back to building materials before it gets to the rotting stage.
Yeah but more buildings tends to mean more carbon usage. Our population and economic growth isn't so massive that lumber turnover is going to overtake CO2 usage
You have to grow actual billions of tons of switchgrass or seaweed a year and bury it. Billions of tons.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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Yeah but more buildings tends to mean more carbon usage. Our population and economic growth isn't so massive that lumber turnover is going to overtake CO2 usage
You have to grow actual billions of tons of switchgrass or seaweed a year and bury it. Billions of tons.
Meh, the CCP has taken care of that.
 

Red Squirrel

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May 24, 2003
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I know Bill Gates has stated he wants to partially block out the sun with some kind of atmospheric chemical. Sounds like a bad idea to me. We need to stop burning fossil fuel, that is the reality of what actually needs to happen, but the world refuses to move on from it.

At the very least we need to stop relying on China for everything, putting money into that economy just means more pollution as they are one of the biggest polluters. Also all the ships coming here are big polluters too. Manufacture stuff locally with local resources, it will minimize transportation. And ideally use green energy to do it too. Airplanes are also another big contributing factor. The amount of airplane sin the air at any given time is completely insane. Even if we convert all passenger vehicles to EV it's going to be a very small percentage of emissions.

We should be working on carbon capture though but reality is I think it's only viable if you have a way to extact the CO2 from the upper atmosphere. That's where the real problem is.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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Unless we convert it back to building materials before it gets to the rotting stage.

On the geological scale, that only slightly extends the time that the carbon remains sequestered. The CO2 component of global warming is almost all about the release of long sequestered carbon back into our environment through the burning of fossil fuels, and very little about the circulation of carbon already in our environment.
 
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Red Squirrel

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I wonder if there is a way to use extracted carbon to make chips? Graphene? Could maybe take care of chip shortage while having a financial reason to capture carbon too.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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I know Bill Gates has stated he wants to partially block out the sun with some kind of atmospheric chemical. Sounds like a bad idea to me. We need to stop burning fossil fuel, that is the reality of what actually needs to happen, but the world refuses to move on from it.

At the very least we need to stop relying on China for everything, putting money into that economy just means more pollution as they are one of the biggest polluters. Also all the ships coming here are big polluters too. Manufacture stuff locally with local resources, it will minimize transportation. And ideally use green energy to do it too. Airplanes are also another big contributing factor. The amount of airplane sin the air at any given time is completely insane. Even if we convert all passenger vehicles to EV it's going to be a very small percentage of emissions.

We should be working on carbon capture though but reality is I think it's only viable if you have a way to extact the CO2 from the upper atmosphere. That's where the real problem is.
Reduce fossil fuel usage? Careful. The Trump party will call you a communist. (Hint: They aren't an evolved species of homo sapiens)
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
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There is only ONE way to make Earth a better place.


Only ONE.




Total and complete human extinction.
As will probably happen someday, people forget or don't realize Earth is 4.5 billion years old and humans have been around for just a tiny fraction of that. When she's ready mother Earth will shake off humans like a dog does a few fleas.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
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As will probably happen someday, people forget or don't realize Earth is 4.5 billion years old and humans have been around for just a tiny fraction of that. When she's ready mother Earth will shake off humans like a dog does a few fleas.
I mean sure. Humans can't do shit to earth. I mean you know if we fired off all our nukes we'd probably change that equation about life on earth.

The whole earth has been around for so long argument so we can't really affect life on it is lame as fuck.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Well, David Keith does discuss this in the article. If coaxed, I could copy/paste what he says here...
David Keith is a professor of applied physics and of public policy at Harvard, where he led the development of the university’s solar engineering research program. He is also a co-host of the podcast “Energy vs Climate” and the founder and a board member of the company Carbon Engineering, which provides technology to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
The summary paragraph at the end of this opinion essay:

Cooling the planet to reduce human suffering in this century will require carbon removal or solar geoengineering or both. The trade-offs between them are uncertain because little comparative research has been done. The fact that one or both are taboo in some green circles is a dreadful misstep of contemporary environmentalism. Climate justice demands fast action to cut emissions and serious exploration of pathways to a cooler future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How to cool the planet?

The energy infrastructure that powers our civilization must be rebuilt, replacing fossil fuels with carbon-free sources such as solar or nuclear. But even then, zeroing out emissions will not cool the planet. This is a direct consequence of the single most important fact about climate change: Warming is proportional to the cumulative emissions over the industrial era.

Eliminating emissions by about 2050 is a difficult but achievable goal. Suppose it is met. Average temperatures will stop increasing when emissions stop, but cooling will take thousands of years as greenhouse gases slowly dissipate from the atmosphere. Because the world will be a lot hotter by the time emissions reach zero, heat waves and storms will be worse than they are today. And while the heat will stop getting worse, sea level will continue to rise for centuries as polar ice melts in a warmer world. This July was the hottest month ever recorded, but it is likely to be one of the coolest Julys for centuries after emissions reach zero.

Stopping emissions stops making the climate worse. But repairing the damage, insofar as repair is possible, will require more than emissions cuts.
To cool the planet in this century, humans must either remove carbon from the air or use solar geoengineering, a temporary measure that may reduce peak temperatures, extreme storms and other climatic changes. Humans might make the planet Earth more reflective by adding tiny sulfuric acid droplets to the stratosphere from aircraft, whitening low-level clouds over the ocean by spraying sea salt into the air or by other interventions.

Yes, this is what it comes down to: carbon removal or solar geoengineering or both. At least one of them is required to cool the planet this century. There are no other options.

Carbon removal would no doubt trounce geoengineering in a straw poll of climate experts. Removal is riding a wave of support among centrist environmental groups, governments and industry. Solar geoengineering is seen as such a desperate gamble that it was dropped from the important “summary for policymakers” in the United Nations’ latest climate report.

Yet if I were asked which method could cut midcentury temperatures with the least environmental risk, I would say geoengineering.

Lest you dismiss me, I founded Carbon Engineering, one of the most visible companies developing technology to capture carbon directly from the air and then pump it underground or use it to make products that contain carbon dioxide. The company’s interests could be hurt if geoengineering were seen as an acceptable option. I was also an early proponent for burning biofuels like wood waste, capturing the resulting carbon at the smokestack and storing it underground. I am proud to be a part of the community developing carbon removal. These approaches can help manage hard-to-abate emissions, and they are the only way to reduce the long-term climate risks that will remain when net emissions reach zero.

But the problem with these carbon removal technologies is that they are inherently slow because the carbon that has accumulated in the atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution must be removed ton by ton. Still, the technology provides a long-term cure.

Geoengineering, on the other hand, is cheap and acts fast, but it cannot deflate the carbon bubble. It is a Band-Aid, not a cure.

The trade-off between geoengineering and carbon removal depends on one’s time horizon. The sooner cooling is pursued, the greater the environmental and social impacts of carbon removal.

Suppose emissions were under control and you wanted to cool the planet an additional degree by midcentury. How would removal and geoengineering compare?

Carbon removal could work. But it will require an enormous industry. Trees are touted as a natural climate solution, and there are some opportunities to protect natural systems while capturing carbon by allowing deforested landscapes to regrow and pull in carbon dioxide as they do. But cooling this fast cannot be achieved by letting nature run free. Ecosystems would need to be manipulated using irrigation, fire suppression or genetically modified plants whose roots are resistant to rot. This helps to increase the buildup of carbon in soils. To cool a degree by midcentury, this ecological engineering would need to happen at a scale comparable to that of global agriculture or forestry, causing profound disruption of natural ecosystems and the too-often-marginalized people who depend on them.

Industrial removal methods have a much smaller land footprint; a single carbon capture facility occupying a square mile of land could remove a million tons of carbon from the air a year. But building and running this equipment would require energy, steel and cement from a global supply chain. And removing the few hundred billion tons required to cool a degree by midcentury requires a supply chain that might be smaller than what feeds the construction industry but larger than what supports the global mining industry.

The challenge is that a carbon removal operation — industrial or biological — achieves nothing the day it starts, but only cumulatively, year upon year. So, the faster one seeks that one degree of cooling, the faster one must build the removal industry, and the higher the social costs and environmental impacts per degree of cooling.

Geoengineering could also work. The physical scale of intervention is — in some respects — small. Less than two million tons of sulfur per year injected into the stratosphere from a fleet of about a hundred high-flying aircraft would reflect away sunlight and cool the planet by a degree. The sulfur falls out of the stratosphere in about two years, so cooling is inherently short term and could be adjusted based on political decisions about risk and benefit.

Adding two million tons of sulfur to the atmosphere sounds reckless, yet this is only about one-twentieth of the annual sulfur pollution from today’s fossil fuels. Geoengineering might worsen air pollution or damage the global ozone layer, and it will certainly exacerbate some climate changes, making some regions wetter or drier even as it cools the world. While limited, the science so far suggests that the harms that would result from shaving a degree off global temperatures would be small compared with the benefits. Air pollution deaths from the added sulfur in the air would be more than offset by declines in the number of deaths from extreme heat, which would be 10 to 100 times larger.

Geoengineering’s grand challenge is geopolitical: Which country or countries get to decide to inject aerosols into the atmosphere, on what scale and for how long? There is no easy path to a stable and legitimate governance process for a cheap, high-leverage technology in an unstable world.

Which is better? Carbon removal is doubtless the safest path to permanent cooling, but solar geoengineering may well be able to cool the world this century with fewer environmental impacts and less social and economic disruption. Yet no one knows, because the question is not being asked. Geoengineering research budgets are minuscule, and much of the work is accomplished after hours by scientists acting outside their institutions’ priorities.

The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change assumes enormous use of carbon removal to meet the Paris Agreement target of 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit), but not because scientists carefully compared removal and geoengineering. This was a glaring omission in the I.P.C.C. report, given that one of the very few areas of agreement about geoengineering is that it could lower global temperatures.

Research is minimal because geoengineering has influential opponents. The strongest opposition to geoengineering research stems from fear that the technology will be exploited by the powerful to maintain the status quo. Why cut emissions if we can seed the atmosphere with sulfur and keep the planet cool? This is geoengineering’s moral hazard.

This threat is real, but I don’t find it a convincing basis to forgo research, particularly given evidence that support for geoengineering research is stronger in regions that are poorer and more vulnerable to climate change, regions that would benefit most from cooling.

Some will no doubt exaggerate the benefits of solar geoengineering to protect the fossil fuel industry. But this threat is not unique to geoengineering. Carbon removal may pose a stronger moral hazard today. Activists like Al Gore once opposed adaptive measures such as flood protection, out of fear it would distract from emission cuts. They now embrace such measures, yet support for emissions cuts has never been higher, proving that support for one method of limiting climate risks need not reduce support for others.

Emissions cuts are necessary. But pretending that climate change can be solved with emissions cuts alone is a dangerous fantasy. If you want to reduce risks from the emissions already in the atmosphere — whether that’s to prevent forest fires in Algeria, heat waves in British Columbia or floods in Germany — you must look to carbon removal, solar geoengineering and local adaptation.

Emissions monomania is not an ethical climate policy because those three approaches together do what emissions cuts cannot: They reduce the future harms caused by historical emissions and provide a reason to hope that collective action can begin repairing Earth’s climate within a human lifetime.

Perhaps the best reason to take cooling seriously is that benefits seem likely to go to the poorest countries. Heat reduces intellectual and physical productivity with economywide consequences. Hotter regions are more sensitive to extra degrees of warming, while some cool regions may even benefit. A year that’s a degree warmer than normal will see economic growth in India reduced by about 17 percent, while Sweden will see growth increased by about 22 percent.

Poor people tend to live in hot places. This, combined with the fact that an added degree causes more harm in warmer climates, explains why the costs of climate change fall heaviest on the poor — and why the benefits of cooling will be felt the most in the hottest regions.

This dynamic explains why the one study to quantitatively examine the consequences of geoengineering for global inequality found that it might reduce economic inequality by about 25 percent, similar to the impressive reduction the United States achieved in the four decades following the New Deal.

Cooling the planet to reduce human suffering in this century will require carbon removal or solar geoengineering or both. The trade-offs between them are uncertain because little comparative research has been done. The fact that one or both are taboo in some green circles is a dreadful misstep of contemporary environmentalism. Climate justice demands fast action to cut emissions and serious exploration of pathways to a cooler future.
 
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