The “middle class” myth: Here’s why wages are really so low today

[IndyColtsFan]

We were warned not to buy cheap imported crap back in the 70's or we would lose a lot of jobs. We bought the crap anyways and were just utterly shocked to find out we were losing jobs. Now we blame the loss of jobs on the corporations. Smashing baby.

I know what will fix things. Let's over-regulate the crap out the businesses we have left and demand they pay even higher wages.

Let's not forget things like NAFTA. Who signed that into law.......

 

[Matt1970]

Let's not forget things like NAFTA. Who signed that into law.......

Got that right. Bush Sr. ceremonially signed it and then Clinton signed it after it was ratified. Perot was very openly against it. Queue the southern accent "giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the country. But it's not about assigning blame. Getting Bush and Clinton to openly admit it was a mistake isn't likely to happen and doesn't do anything to fix the mess.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Got that right. Bush Sr. ceremonially signed it and then Clinton signed it after it was ratified. Perot was very openly against it. Queue the southern accent "giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the country. But it's not about assigning blame. Getting Bush and Clinton to openly admit it was a mistake isn't likely to happen and doesn't do anything to fix the mess.

Perot was right. I remember the "giant sucking sound" speech and both parties dismissed him. And yes, both parties are to blame -- I certainly don't blame Clinton solely, I just find it a historical curiosity since I believe the free trade religion has damaged the US and middle class so badly.

 

[Matt1970]

Perot was right. I remember the "giant sucking sound" speech and both parties dismissed him. And yes, both parties are to blame -- I certainly don't blame Clinton solely, I just find it a historical curiosity since I believe the free trade religion has damaged the US and middle class so badly.

Clinton/Bush and Congress at the time can all take a share of the blame. I might be more in favor of free trade if it was also fair. Instead we trade with countries that either manipulate their currency, get around tariffs with VATs or other hidden "fees" or just flat out tariff stuff coming in at 30%.

 

[BoberFett]

Solution: unionize labor pools in 3rd world nations.

Good idea. I suggest going to China and starting a movement to unionize workers. Let us know how that works out for you.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Good idea. I suggest going to China and starting a movement to unionize workers. Let us know how that works out for you.

Or instead of trying to score points on an internet forum, you could actually offer pragmatic advice. China situation is solving itself. My response was to "emerging" (untapped) labor pools in other areas of the globe.

If the solution is to raise the pay and standards of living of workers worldwide, in order to aid the struggling american middle class, then you need an accelerant, or there will not be a middle class to save here. Especially since ideologue dogma prevents attacking the problem from any other angle.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

comparing shoveling heavy shit constantly near a 2000 degree oven to tossin frozen french fries in a fryer. I mean, that's an equal relation amirite?

Fucking retards. It's funny, if you did that shoveling job today - guess what? You WILL be getting $17.50. You won't get the minimum wage job they are comparing of working at McDonalds.

Yes, I understand shoveling shit doesn't equate to skill - sometimes it's not about skill, it's about someone that has the balls to get up and do hard labor for 8 hours instead of sit by a cash register and text underneath the counter.

 

[BoberFett]

Or instead of trying to score points on an internet forum, you could actually offer pragmatic advice. China situation is solving itself. My response was to "emerging" (untapped) labor pools in other areas of the globe.

If the solution is to raise the pay and standards of living of workers worldwide, in order to aid the struggling american middle class, then you need an accelerant, or there will not be a middle class to save here. Especially since ideologue dogma prevents attacking the problem from any other angle.

Raising the standard of living worldwide will necessarily lower our living standards here in the US. The entire world cannot live a US middle class lifestyle, demand for raw materials will vastly outstrip world production.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

We were warned not to buy cheap imported crap back in the 70's or we would lose a lot of jobs. We bought the crap anyways and were just utterly shocked to find out we were losing jobs. Now we blame the loss of jobs on the corporations. Smashing baby.

I don't blame businesses for obeying the laws and doing what makes business sense. Our politicians are to blame for our international trade and immigration policies.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Clinton/Bush and Congress at the time can all take a share of the blame. I might be more in favor of free trade if it was also fair. Instead we trade with countries that either manipulate their currency, get around tariffs with VATs or other hidden "fees" or just flat out tariff stuff coming in at 30%.

True. And the fact of the matter is, no American business can compete with third-world labor forces. Oh sure, our workers can probably make higher quality stuff, but at what premium? This is where, IMO, the free trade religion fails. As WhipperSnapper has pointed out several times, global labor arbitrage is killing the middle class.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Or instead of trying to score points on an internet forum, you could actually offer pragmatic advice. China situation is solving itself. My response was to "emerging" (untapped) labor pools in other areas of the globe.

If the solution is to raise the pay and standards of living of workers worldwide, in order to aid the struggling american middle class, then you need an accelerant, or there will not be a middle class to save here. Especially since ideologue dogma prevents attacking the problem from any other angle.

It's obvious you've never worked overseas. In many of the 3rd world countries the goverment dictates what workers are paid. Even if a company decided to pay their workers more or provide better benefits they would be visited by government labor representative to inform them that they must follow set wage/benefits guidelines.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I don't blame businesses for obeying the laws and doing what makes business sense. Our politicians are to blame for our international trade and immigration policies.

The consumers that fed the beast aren't responsible? 😵

What the fuck, you expect the government to be parent's and tell us not to buy cheap imported goods? Pretty much goes against capitalism.... I understand your point of what is good for our labor market, but still.

 

[Matt1970]

The consumers that fed the beast aren't responsible? 😵

What the fuck, you expect the government to be parent's and tell us not to buy cheap imported goods? Pretty much goes against capitalism.... I understand your point of what is good for our labor market, but still.

Ultimately the consumers are the ones who have to make the choice of what to buy, but I think she is more pointing out that imported stuff has an unfair advantage due to our trade policies. I am always willing to shell out a few extra bucks for an American made product but not enough people feel the same way and with a lot of products we no longer even have a choice.

 

[OverVolt]

It's obvious you've never worked overseas. In many of the 3rd world countries the goverment dictates what workers are paid. Even if a company decided to pay their workers more or provide better benefits they would be visited by government labor representative to inform them that they must follow set wage/benefits guidelines.

And this is why the 3rd world is the 3rd world.

 

[piasabird]

I was in a union at manufacturing plant. All I ever got from the union was being laid off every year for 3 or 4 months. I quit my job and went to school. I may not make as much now but I work all year round and save a lot more money. My life expectancy is probably increased by 20 years.

 

[HumblePie]

comparing shoveling heavy shit constantly near a 2000 degree oven to tossin frozen french fries in a fryer. I mean, that's an equal relation amirite?

Fucking retards. It's funny, if you did that shoveling job today - guess what? You WILL be getting $17.50. You won't get the minimum wage job they are comparing of working at McDonalds.

Yes, I understand shoveling shit doesn't equate to skill - sometimes it's not about skill, it's about someone that has the balls to get up and do hard labor for 8 hours instead of sit by a cash register and text underneath the counter.

That's basically what I said. And a few less than bright individuals couldn't understand the concept at all.

 

[Spungo]

Good idea. I suggest going to China and starting a movement to unionize workers. Let us know how that works out for you.

The Chinese workers should petition to have the suicide nets removed. Seriously, those nets are to prevent slaves from ending their miserable lives.

 

[Jeff7]

My understanding is that we've also got government policies shouldering some of the blame, which helped open the door to start shipping jobs overseas, and benefiting from impoverished people who were just happy to have a few dollar a day thrown their way. If your goal is to help the Chinese economy and spread that "American Dream" stuff to other countries, mission accomplished. I'm pretty sure that it was simple short-sighted greed though.

“Working class” should be defined by your relationship to your employer, not whether you perform physical labor. Unless you own the business, you’re working class.

++

Holy fail, Batman!

Nobody said unions hire illegals, you boob. Illegals, which the left coddles, displace union workers by working for extremely low wages under the table.

I guess I'm something of a leftish moderate?

Illegals: Want to come to the US? Fine. Follow the proper procedures for immigration, learn English*, and pay taxes. Welcome!
Where the whole thing gets stupid is because of stupid people: "I don't want illegal immigrants here" gets equated to "I want to kill all foreigners!!!"





* learn English - I don't give a damn about "Learn English ya damn ferners!" or that whole attitude. It's simply practical. If you can't communicate with the people around you, it makes life difficult for you and for everyone you have to deal with. Pragmatism, dammit. 🙂

 

[unokitty]

Charting technology’s new directions: A conversation with MIT’s Erik Brynjolfsson

... there is no economic law that says that technological progress needs to benefit everybody, or even that it needs to benefit a majority of people. It’s entirely possible for technology to advance, to make the pie bigger, and yet for some people to get a smaller share of that pie.

If anyone thinks that they can go to school and get a masters in American Studies, or Theater Studies, or anything with a 'studies' in the title and that some other entity is responsible for finding them a job commensurate with their talent and their education, then I'd say that that person likely has been educated beyond their intelligence.

We all make decisions. Some people make the decision to change with the times. Some people make the decision to whine about things not being how they used to be...

Uno

 

[werepossum]

My understanding is that we've also got government policies shouldering some of the blame, which helped open the door to start shipping jobs overseas, and benefiting from impoverished people who were just happy to have a few dollar a day thrown their way. If your goal is to help the Chinese economy and spread that "American Dream" stuff to other countries, mission accomplished. I'm pretty sure that it was simple short-sighted greed though.

++

I guess I'm something of a leftish moderate?

Illegals: Want to come to the US? Fine. Follow the proper procedures for immigration, learn English*, and pay taxes. Welcome!
Where the whole thing gets stupid is because of stupid people: "I don't want illegal immigrants here" gets equated to "I want to kill all foreigners!!!"

* learn English - I don't give a damn about "Learn English ya damn ferners!" or that whole attitude. It's simply practical. If you can't communicate with the people around you, it makes life difficult for you and for everyone you have to deal with. Pragmatism, dammit. 🙂

Well said.

Charting technology’s new directions: A conversation with MIT’s Erik Brynjolfsson

If anyone thinks that they can go to school and get a masters in American Studies, or Theater Studies, or anything with a 'studies' in the title and that some other entity is responsible for finding them a job commensurate with their talent and their education, then I'd say that that person likely has been educated beyond their intelligence.

We all make decisions. Some people make the decision to change with the times. Some people make the decision to whine about things not being how they used to be...

Uno

Universities ought to require people who major in anything with a 'studies' in the title to eat nothing but Ramen noodles every day and get kicked in the face every day for the entirety of their studies, to prepare them for the reality of their chosen field of study. These are typically fields whose principle use is to teach others the same material. The equivalent would be math degrees in abacus theory or architecture schools teaching monolithic stone construction.

 

[berzerker60]

Congrats to everyone for another fun round of Talking Out of Your Ass About Fields You Imagine to be Dumb Without Any Knowledge of Them!

Not everyone defines success in terms of money. The lowest earning majors are Counseling Psychology and Early Childhood Education - do you really think social workers and kindergarten teachers are in it for the money? That said, these majors you despise on principle still aren't bad decisions economically.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/whatsitworth-complete.pdf

"Other majors have relatively high unemployment rates, among them Social Psychology(16 percent), Nuclear Engineering (11 percent),and Educational Administration and Supervision (11 percent)."

Ahh yes, noted liberal arts softball field Nuclear Engineering!

Top 10 majors with lowest median earning:
Counseling Psychology
Early Childhood Education
Theological and Religious Vocations
Human Services / Community Organizing
Social Work
Drama and Theater Arts
Studio Arts
Communication Disorders Sciences
Visual and Performing Arts
Health/Medical Preparatory Programs.

They still have a median of $40k, which is $10k/year more than a median high school graduate with no college, and $20k/year more than a high school dropout.

 

[OverVolt]

Ahh yes, noted liberal arts softball field Nuclear Engineering!

Lol :X

 

[TurtleCrusher]

I understand history and the place that Unions have in it. But it's time for them to hang up the hat and enjoy their place in history. There's nothing unions offer to society that isn't already available via other means. You don't need unions anymore. I'd never consider joining one. Fuck that.

Compare a journeyman electricians pay from Florida to Oregon and you'll see why unions are necessary. No licenced, highly skilled and back breaking tradesman shouldn't be making $16 an hour with fringe benefits when organized labor is extremely thriving and doling out $70 an hour compensation packages.

Unions are necessary; especially for tradesmen. Unlike you tech-forum crawlers, we spend our day working and not wasting company time posting on internet message boards.

Ask Intel why they'd rather hire union electricians to wire their fabs? They'd tell you many reasons.

First, unions provide a competent, highly trained workforce that's able to work on a moment's notice.

Second, they'd tell you the quality of work is much higher due to morale, and that the employee takes pride in their work as they are paid above prevailing wage.

Third, this is evident in their most recent Arizona fab where it's been delayed many times due to insufficiently trained electricians and poor workmanlike results have been performed. Due to this, it's so far over budget and their timeline that they've put the project on hold. FAB 42 has been a non-union disaster. While D1X here in Oregon is ahead of schedule on an even more state of the art facility.

Fourth, employees can be laid off at any time and there's no loss of morale or a loss in quality of work as the tradesmen can go find work elsewhere on a dime.

And it doesn't surprise me that a computer lab aide wouldn't want to organize into a union. You guys don't even perform a real function except for rebooting a few computers and showing the elderly how to plug in a flash drive.

 

[OverVolt]

.....

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The consumers that fed the beast aren't responsible? 😵

What the fuck, you expect the government to be parent's and tell us not to buy cheap imported goods? Pretty much goes against capitalism.... I understand your point of what is good for our labor market, but still.

If you take it one step beyond the politicians, you are correct. Ultimately the American people are to blame for the actions and inactions of the politicians that they have elected. We're getting what we deserve for not having a sense of economic nationalism.