That's a lot of Explaining...

[LTC8K6]

Predicting fuel mileage based on HALF a gallon of gasoline usage is asinine.

Yes, most people know better than to do that.

The thing is, if predictions about how people will drive the car are correct, then those are the amounts of fuel use you will have to work with.

If GM is correct, it will be rare for most users to burn a whole gallon of gas.

 

[LordMorpheus]

That's true of any vehicle, but Hybrids excel in the city because of the electric motors which can easily scoot you around town. However if there's no battery, then the advantage is no longer there.

on the interstate there is no advantage to a hybrid powertrain.

A hybrid (or electric) vehicle is good around town because when you want to stop the car, the drivetrain is capable of putting that energy back into the battery rather than turning it into heat in the brakes, like a normal gas car.

Aside from efficiency differences between gas and electric (electric is a little better), the ability to use the electric motors to turn kinetic energy into chemical / electrical energy in the batteries as opposed to just turning it into heat in the brake discs is the only reason that electric / hybrid vehicles are "better."

On the interstate this advantage is moot. In a hilly area, or in a city with lots of stop/start driving, hybrids or electrics can absolutely destroy a normal gas car as far as energy used / mile.

 

[Bignate603]

You want to see real hybrids with real efficiency? All electric with a small gas turbine (scale model aircraft or cruise missile size) running constant rpm to charge the batteries.

I work on turbine engines for a living and I've got to disagree. You'll be better off with an optimized diesel.

 

[Bignate603]

on the interstate there is no advantage to a hybrid powertrain.

Yes there is. With a hybrid drivetrain you can downsize the engine so it's just large enough to cruise (plus a little extra to allow the batteries to charge up to their operating levels and go up long inclines) but it doesn't need to large enough to do a 0-60 run in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Zap]

If a full charge can get 40 miles, how much does a full charge cost on your utility bill? On a super econobox that might be a gallon of gas, which (just checked today) runs $2.52.

EDIT: According to their FAQ costs will average $0.80 for the first "gallon" of 40 miles.

 

[lurk3r]

It doesn't need solar or a better generator it needs better batteries
The end
Until they can have a lot less battery 'lighter vehicle' and higher density for longer range and quicker charging to elimiate one powertrain the electric vehicle is non relevant in a practical sense which is what a Volt is supposed to be, not a hybrid.

Yes you are absolutely correct, and it could use a fairy godmother and run on smurfs. Better batteris do not exist, better generators do.

 

[skyking]

I work on turbine engines for a living and I've got to disagree. You'll be better off with an optimized diesel.

Indeed!
Typical gas turbine = 0.55 LB/HP/HR
Typical Diesel = 0.35 LB/HP/HR, and as low as 0.278 in the big engines.

 

[LTC8K6]

That GM-Volt site says up to 400 miles range, but the Chevrolet site says up to 300 miles range. After the 40 electric miles.

So either the mileage is not close to 50, or the fuel tank is smaller.

 

[Bignate603]

Yes you are absolutely correct, and it could use a fairy godmother and run on smurfs. Better batteris do not exist, better generators do.

Exactly, the fact of the matter is that batteries don't have the energy density of liquid fuels. They are trying to improve that but it's going to take a huge increase in energy density and recharging time to make it a direct replacement for gas.

 

[skyking]

My wife's commute is about 35 miles round trip, mine was about 25. 80 cents for a full charge is about .27 gallons at today's prices, so it would totally pencil out for us if the car were a reasonable price. I think they are good in a two car family with a short commute, alongside a conventional second car for the long trips.

 

[LTC8K6]

My wife's commute is about 35 miles round trip, mine was about 25. 80 cents for a full charge is about .27 gallons at today's prices, so it would totally pencil out for us if the car were a reasonable price. I think they are good in a two car family with a short commute, alongside a conventional second car for the long trips.

Why would you buy the Volt over the much cheaper Chevy Cruze though?

I can't see how it makes any sense even at 80 cents a fillup.

 

[skyking]

something about "a reasonable price" disqualifies the volt.
There are and will be be better alternatives.
In our scenario the Nissan leaf would fit.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think even the Leaf is pushing it for ever making up the price difference over a conventional small car.

For both cars, you also need to consider if you will need the extra cost charging system at home, or if what you already have will work for you.

The Leaf takes 20 hours to full from a standard 120V outlet, for example.

 

[skyking]

The big charger is a must, and both automakers are stupid in making it optional. It is akin to selling a car with three wheels, IMO.

 

[LTC8K6]

The charging stations are also subsidized by the taxpayers. For the Leaf it ends up costing about $1K.

Nissan is giving Leaf customers the option of buying a home charging station at an estimated cost, including installation, of US$2,200 , which is eligible for a 50% federal tax credit up to US$2,000 . So after the federal tax credit, the average cost for the charging dock would be US$1,100 .[65][66][67]

 

[mb]

Predicting fuel mileage based on HALF a gallon of gasoline usage is asinine.

Seriously.

And they based this off the trip computer too? Fail.

 

[LTC8K6]

Looking at the Leaf site, it doesn't look like the fast charge station is optional. It looks like you have to purchase one.

 

[Paperlantern]

On a 25 Mile round trip like my drive to work, and the fact that I get 25mpg in my car, i need roughly 1 gallon of gas per trip to work and back. So approximately 5 gallons a week, at even a conservative $2.50 per gallon, that comes to $12.50 per week, or $50/mo in fuel costs to operate my ancient car, that is paid off.

The Volt, costing 80 cents per fill up, per approximately 40 miles, on my weekly trips of 125 miles would run me $2.40, assuming if i plugged it in and it would only top off and then of course, stop charging when full each day. Monthly that is $9.60, compared to $50, so in rough terms, the volt would save me $40 a month in gas, so to even out to the cost of the car at what? Lets say a nice round $40,000 to make the math easy, id need 1000 months to break even, or roughly 83 years.

I'll stick with my gas engine for now... thanks.

 

[Pariah]

On a 25 Mile round trip like my drive to work, and the fact that I get 25mpg in my car, i need roughly 1 gallon of gas per trip to work and back. So approximately 5 gallons a week, at even a conservative $2.50 per gallon, that comes to $12.50 per week, or $50/mo in fuel costs to operate my ancient car, that is paid off.

The Volt, costing 80 cents per fill up, per approximately 40 miles, on my weekly trips of 125 miles would run me $2.40, assuming if i plugged it in and it would only top off and then of course, stop charging when full each day. Monthly that is $9.60, compared to $50, so in rough terms, the volt would save me $40 a month in gas, so to even out to the cost of the car at what? Lets say a nice round $40,000 to make the math easy, id need 1000 months to break even, or roughly 83 years.

I'll stick with my gas engine for now... thanks.

It's not designed to save you money. It's designed to reduce our dependency on oil which is going to run out at some point. We need to start developing the technologies that will transition us to a post oil world long before we actually run out, or it becomes impractically expensive to use as the supply begins to dry up.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's not designed to save you money. It's designed to reduce our dependency on oil which is going to run out at some point. We need to start developing the technologies that will transition us to a post oil world long before we actually run out, or it becomes impractically expensive to use as the supply begins to dry up.

But should you waste money, though?

You'd be spending a lot on a car that still has a conventional gas burning ice in it. It's hardly going to wean you off gasoline.

A Focus or a Cruze will be substantially cheaper if you are in the market for a new car. For me, either would use substantially less gas than what I cruise in now.

 

[Pariah]

But should you waste money, though?

You'd be spending a lot on a car that still has a conventional gas burning ice in it. It's hardly going to wean you off gasoline.

A Focus or a Cruze will be substantially cheaper if you are in the market for a new car. For me, either would use substantially less gas than what I cruise in now.

What makes it a waste of money? The fact that it isn't a perfect fit for your needs?

Just watch, GM will not be able to produce enough of these to keep up with demand. They're only going to produce 10,000 in the first year. Ford sells about 35,000 F150's in a month by comparison. The Volt is NOT for penny pinchers. Why people keep trying to put it in the same categories of cars for people that are is beyond me. Even without the tax credit, GM would have no problem in the first year at least selling every car for $40,000. So why would they be stupid and charge less?

 

[LTC8K6]

What makes it a waste of money?

It's several thousand dollars more money than anyone needs to spend on that size/type of car, and you will never make up the difference. That's wasted money.

It's not about cars in general being a waste of money, they are all money losers for the most part. It's about how much money you lose depending on which car you buy, or how much money you lose by not keeping your present car, in order to get a Volt.

For people with enough money not to care, then they don't care, so be it. I'm one of them. The extra money for the Volt over a Focus or Cruze is not critical to me, personally.

For people who are on a budget, it's a big deal.

Why do you keep saying sales will be strong? No one has questioned that. Sales of the Volt and Leaf will certainly be strong, especially for the first year. The cars will definitely be trendy for a while.

 

[LTC8K6]

Included will be the capability of turning off charging upon request of the local utility company if it finds the grid to be overburdened.

Sorry, you can't charge your car yet...

:biggrin:

 

[Paperlantern]

It's several thousand dollars more money than anyone needs to spend on that size/type of car, and you will never make up the difference. That's wasted money.

It's not about cars in general being a waste of money, they are all money losers for the most part. It's about how much money you lose depending on which car you buy, or how much money you lose by not keeping your present car, in order to get a Volt.

For people with enough money not to care, then they don't care, so be it. I'm one of them. The extra money for the Volt over a Focus or Cruze is not critical to me, personally.

For people who are on a budget, it's a big deal.

Why do you keep saying sales will be strong? No one has questioned that. Sales of the Volt and Leaf will certainly be strong, especially for the first year. The cars will definitely be trendy for a while.

Exactly... trendy... Practical? No. Not for, as you say, the average Joe. I'm glad we are making strides in the right direction, but they are still a ways off before they will become mainstream.

 

[Zap]

It's not designed to save you money. It's designed to reduce our dependency on oil which is going to run out at some point. We need to start developing the technologies that will transition us to a post oil world long before we actually run out, or it becomes impractically expensive to use as the supply begins to dry up.

How about have people convince themselves to use less gasoline by substantially increasing the tax on it? Use the tax revenues to subsidize consumer purchases of cars that get above the CAFE for that year model. Voila! Instant increased demand on fuel efficiency!

CAFE has been stuck for two decades at 27.5MPG, but starting next year will start to go up again until it hits mid-30's in the next five years.