There was absolutely no push off - watch the replay, it was incidental contact.
Your second sentence is ridiculous - it's like saying nobody would be charging me with murder if my bullet didn't kill someone. This is exactly why I am saying this: it did cost Baltimore a TD and it did cost Baltimore a chance at the game. At a minimum, it would have tied the game and given Cincy the ball with a long field and under 2 minutes with 1 TO against one of the best Ds in the league.
You guys have no idea what you are talking about - there is no way the game would lengthen by any noticeable amount if you reviewed every penalty call immediately after the call for a sign of whether or not the call was questionable. The broadcasting station does this anyway and usually knows whether or not the call was good well before the snap of the next down.
I am not suggesting trying to find all non-calls, I am suggesting reviewing all questionable calls with video evidence and if there is a sign that there may have been a mistake - force the officiating crew to review it. Throw away the red flag and throw away the challenge.
How many times on 3rd or 4th and short has Brian Billick called a pass since he took over playcalling last year. It frustrates the hell out of me. We just went out in the offseason and pick up a supposedly huge upgrade at running back, we ran the ball with success all night, yet when it really mattered, he threw the ball.
We finally take the lead and start a clock killing drive. 3rd and 2. Do you run the ball for the first against a tired defense? No, throw 15 yards down the field, interception. Cinci scores a few plays later. Then 4th and inches with Kyle fricking Boller at the helm. Pass to Heap. It was a bad call on the offensive pass interference, but why are we throwing there anyway?!!! Then, we get a fresh set of downs. On 1st down we run from the 6 to the 2.5 yard line. You're telling me opening night, Monday night football, divisional rivalry, you can't get jacked up enough to run 2.5 yards on 3 straight runs? Instead, back to back passes and the 2nd is intercepted. Again, Boller made a good throw, but why throw in the first place?
Sorry night for a Ravens fan
We finally take the lead and start a clock killing drive. 3rd and 2. Do you run the ball for the first against a tired defense? No, throw 15 yards down the field, interception. Cinci scores a few plays later. Then 4th and inches with Kyle fricking Boller at the helm. Pass to Heap. It was a bad call on the offensive pass interference, but why are we throwing there anyway?!!! Then, we get a fresh set of downs. On 1st down we run from the 6 to the 2.5 yard line. You're telling me opening night, Monday night football, divisional rivalry, you can't get jacked up enough to run 2.5 yards on 3 straight runs? Instead, back to back passes and the 2nd is intercepted. Again, Boller made a good throw, but why throw in the first place?
Sorry night for a Ravens fan
fixed.
I have never questioned that - this is why that call was so important. We don't manufacture offensive touchdowns very often - when we do and they are taken away, it cripples us.
There is no doubt that Baltimore had no business being in that game with 6 turnovers. Cincy did a horrible job of putting it away. There is no doubt we should have scored with 8 attempts to punch the ball in from the red zone against a poor red zone defense. But we did score and the refs took it away from us with no good reason.
Originally posted by: Lord Zado
How many times on 3rd or 4th and short has Brian Billick called a pass since he took over playcalling last year. It frustrates the hell out of me. We just went out in the offseason and pick up a supposedly huge upgrade at running back, we ran the ball with success all night, yet when it really mattered, he threw the ball.
We finally take the lead and start a clock killing drive. 3rd and 2. Do you run the ball for the first against a tired defense? No, throw 15 yards down the field, interception. Cinci scores a few plays later. Then 4th and inches with Kyle fricking Boller at the helm. Pass to Heap. It was a bad call on the offensive pass interference, but why are we throwing there anyway?!!! Then, we get a fresh set of downs. On 1st down we run from the 6 to the 2.5 yard line. You're telling me opening night, Monday night football, divisional rivalry, you can't get jacked up enough to run 2.5 yards on 3 straight runs? Instead, back to back passes and the 2nd is intercepted. Again, Boller made a good throw, but why throw in the first place?
Sorry night for a Ravens fan
Agreed - especially since Musa Smith punched it in earlier in the night.
Don't change the subject. I have never denied that Baltimore had no business being in the game at the end. The fact is they were in the game, the fact is that the TD the refs took away would have tied the game and the fact is that it was a bad call. This is what we are discussing - stay focused people.
KB
Diamond Member
- Nov 8, 1999
- 5,396
- 383
- 126
Give it up, the game was lost. I am a Ravens fan and even if the ref didn't make a bad, terrible, ridiculous call, the Ravens deserved to lose. No one wins with 6 turnovers. Face it Billick made bad offensive decisions and Boller has never been good and never will.
Originally posted by: Lord Zado
How many times on 3rd or 4th and short has Brian Billick called a pass since he took over playcalling last year. It frustrates the hell out of me. We just went out in the offseason and pick up a supposedly huge upgrade at running back, we ran the ball with success all night, yet when it really mattered, he threw the ball.
We finally take the lead and start a clock killing drive. 3rd and 2. Do you run the ball for the first against a tired defense? No, throw 15 yards down the field, interception. Cinci scores a few plays later. Then 4th and inches with Kyle fricking Boller at the helm. Pass to Heap. It was a bad call on the offensive pass interference, but why are we throwing there anyway?!!! Then, we get a fresh set of downs. On 1st down we run from the 6 to the 2.5 yard line. You're telling me opening night, Monday night football, divisional rivalry, you can't get jacked up enough to run 2.5 yards on 3 straight runs? Instead, back to back passes and the 2nd is intercepted. Again, Boller made a good throw, but why throw in the first place?
Sorry night for a Ravens fan
That play you're talking about was 3 and $@%@#1, and that arrogant idiot Billick decides to call a pass, on a night when both his RBs are averaging over 3 yards/carry! Instead of taking the sure first down, he decides to call an intermediate pass to show how 'smart' he is, and it got picked. Serves him right. And then when his back-up QB is in the game, he again ignores his RBs and calls mostly passes. What a flaming idiot. The Ratbirds totally deserved to lose that game.
And the hilarious thing was, Billick was complaining earlier this weekend that all the analysts are saying it's a 3-way race for the Super Bowl, between Indy, NE, and SD, totally ignoring his team. Well Coach, if you can't beat a non-playoff team like Cinncy, then you don't deserve to complain about not being mentioned as a SB contender. Bad coaching lost that game, plain and simple.
Bro did you see the drive they had? Were you watching? It was yards from the endzone and there was offensive pass interference that was questionable. Then redemption hits them right in the face with holding and an automatic first down after a few yards bumped up. It put them right back in the exact same place that they started before the pass interference call. Its like taking a giant etch-e-sketch after 2 really crappy plays and shaking it all over the place to start again and THEY STILL COULDNT GET A TD. They had their chances, they blew it. They blew every single time they failed to convert a drive into points. Baltimore Fails.
Heh, I was pretty drunk and pissed off when I posted this last night.
Now that I have my composure.....
That really was a horrible call. But I am also upset with Billick's decision to pass. Everybody knows exactly what we do in the redzone; we pass to Todd Heap. The Bengals knew it, and they had 3 guys on Heap; not to mention the pass was coming from Kyle Boller.
I cant deal with a loss, but not a loss like that.
We could have sent it into overtime if we ran the ball.
Now that I have my composure.....
That really was a horrible call. But I am also upset with Billick's decision to pass. Everybody knows exactly what we do in the redzone; we pass to Todd Heap. The Bengals knew it, and they had 3 guys on Heap; not to mention the pass was coming from Kyle Boller.
I cant deal with a loss, but not a loss like that.
We could have sent it into overtime if we ran the ball.
I watched every second of the game. I am not talking about the rest of the game, I am not talking about all the turnovers, I am not talking about the bad play calls (these all suck for Ravens fans). I am simply talking about the bad penalty call and how we have the technology to dramatically reduce the chances of this ever happening again.
It is frustrating to me that it is not being used and this forces an offensively challenged team to give up a game tying TD (which are obviously hard to come by for Baltimore) resulting in a loss when it should have been tied.
Right, pushing another player away from the area when you are about to receive a catch isn't a push off. :roll:
Aside from you trying to equate my statement to murder... you're still wrong... if you shoot someone and they don't die... you wouldn't be charged with murder you'd get charged with attempted murder. Regardless, if the Ravens were up 40 to zip you wouldn't have made this post because you wouldn't give a damn. If they had scored after that, you would be making posts saying "Doesn't matter... they still got the job done." If they had scored again, and with the remaining minute and a half the Bengals kicked a field goal, it wouldn't have made any damn difference, would it? It's just like the people that got all pissy when a fan in Chicago caught a foul ball that could have been an out.
You can't come out on the field, play like crap and be pissed you didn't win because of one bad call. You get what you give. The only thing that cost Baltimore a chance at winning the game was Baltimore themselves.
Things have been fine for decades without it. It's part of the game. Everyone gets calls in their favor or against them at some point, deal with it. I still stand by it being a legit call, but even if it wasn't... crap happens. Which is why I keep saying that if it comes down to that one call, they don't deserve to win... because it just doesn't matter.
Way to put words in my mouth.
You are the only one who has posted here that thinks that was a foul and a valid call. As such you have no credibility with me. Hands down, they didn't deserve to be in the position they were in after 6 turnovers and a bunch of bad play calls. But they were in that position and they did lose that game because of that one call.
My argument is that it should have been reviewable and on review it would have been reversed and the TD would have been awarded. It is ridiculous that the broadcasting stations can review the play 20 ways to sunday before the snap of the next down, but there isn't enough time for the league to do so.
JUST IN CASE IT ISN'T CLEAR - I AM NOT ARGUING THAT BALTIMORE SHOULD HAVE WON THAT GAME. I AM ARGUING THAT THE OFFENSIVE PASS INTEREFENCE WAS A HORRIBLE CALL, SHOULD HAVE BEEN REVIEWED AND REVERESED - SO THE TD SHOULD HAVE BEEN AWARDED RESULTING IN A TIE GAME. THE WAY BALTIMORE WAS PLAYING THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE TURNED IT OVER A 7TH TIME AND LOST THE GAME ANYWAY, BUT THEN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE RIGHT PEOPLE DECIDING THE WINNER AND THE LOSER.
AND JUST TO BE CLEAR MY ARGUMENT IS "LET IT GO, IT DOESN'T MATTER". THE GAME HAS BEEN PLAYED FOR YEARS WITH THE ABILITY TO REVIEW REFEREE CALLS AND NO ONE WANTS THAT BECAUSE IT'S DETRACTING FROM THE FACT THAT IT'S A DAMN SPORT, AND SPORTS AREN'T ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND WHAT CAMERA ANGLES YOU GET, IT'S ABOUT A GROUP OF PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO COMPETE, WHICH BALTIMORE WAS INCAPABLE OF DOING. AGAIN, LET IT GO.
Darn, I don't have any credibility from Garet Jax. I'm heartbroken. I didn't see a push-off UNTIL the replay, which made it quite obvious that Trash Heap hindered the ability of the defensive player to do his job, including knocking the ball down, intercepting it, or screening the pass.
So it goes back to my first argument - either have video replay for everything or have it for nothing. Do not arbitrarily choose what can be reviewed and what can't be reviewed.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
- 12,648
- 201
- 106
I saw the play... I saw all the replays... It was a push off. Heap clearly has his hand on the shoulder of the defender to gain/maintain seperation... Despite what the announcer said on air... It was a good call.
Replays available here The reason why most penalties are not reviewable is they are a judgement call... a penalty could be called on nearly every play... theres always incidental hand contact, blockers hold defenders, etc... You could throw flags from the replay booth on every play if you wanted to... its just a referee judgement call on how severe the infraction was.
Every team gets calls for and against them... look at the jerome bettis coin toss!!!
But here is the point oblivious to you... a game is not won or lost on one play or by one player... either team can score on any/every play in the game... there are 100-some snaps in a game... and if your win hinges on one play... then you didnt play well enough to win.
- Oct 28, 1999
- 62,387
- 8,154
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I don't know why I'm even entering this thread again...
Some calls will ALWAYS be arbitrary. No amount of replay will fix it. If somebody is defense minded they will say it's this. If they are offense minded, they will say it's that. Even refs alone won't agree on it.
Fans of one team see it one way. Fans of another see it another.
Fumbles, out of bounds, ball placement, possession, ect are pretty indisputable and that's why they are allowed to be reviewed.
Personal fouls/player to player contact will always be a judgement call. That's just part of contact sports.
Some calls will ALWAYS be arbitrary. No amount of replay will fix it. If somebody is defense minded they will say it's this. If they are offense minded, they will say it's that. Even refs alone won't agree on it.
Fans of one team see it one way. Fans of another see it another.
Fumbles, out of bounds, ball placement, possession, ect are pretty indisputable and that's why they are allowed to be reviewed.
Personal fouls/player to player contact will always be a judgement call. That's just part of contact sports.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
- 12,648
- 201
- 106
Its nowhere near arbitrary...Facts are reviewable... judgement opinions are not.
Whether the ball crosses the goal line is either true or false... thats reviewable.
whether hand contact between a reciever and a defender is interference or incidental is judgement... there is no clear cut black and white dividing line...
Opinions are not reviewable.
That is so far from the truth. Two great teams pitted against each other will usually have the game decided on one or two plays.
I have never denied that Baltimore didn't even come close to playing well enough to win, but it doesn't change the fact that they were in a position to win and were denied that opportunity because of a bad call.
Heap's hand was on the defender, but the defenders hands were also on Heap and there was no pushing motion - he jumped, he didn't push.
Even more reason to review it - remove the opinion and the ability to alter a game from the hands of one ref who has to make a split second call without the luxury of replay.
Setup a panel of refs (odd number) and leave the decision to them in these questionable calls.
That's not a fact, that's your opinion. Once again, for the Nth time in this thread, you can't call a game on one play. They were denied the opportunity to win because they did not play well. Anything else is a matter of luck.
He certainly did something that warranted a flag. These aren't amateur refs looking over a youth league game, here. Between the ref and you, one of you has experience doing this, and one doesn't.
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