Thank you Steve for doing the right thing.

[accguy9009]

Many around the world began to speak out about the poor working conditions at Hon Hai Precision Industry's Foxconn plant in China. This massive organization builds for Microsoft, HP, Dell, Apple, Nintendo, Sony, etc.. The story finally got some legs after more than a dozen employees who are part of the team manufacturing iphones, iPads & iPods committed suicide. At least one media member who went undercover to get the real story was allegedly discovered & beaten by Foxconn security.
Lots of people around the world were horrified to hear of the conditions and the overall plight of the factory workers. Sadly, far too many took the attitude "hey their lucky to have a job" or "the suicide rate is higher in other places" and even, incredibly, "there is nothing the OEM's can do about it".

Well one man decided enough was enough and decided to put his money where his mouth is.

Steve Jobs has essentially agreed to finance a reported 20% raise for employees building its devices at this plant. This raise should significantly improve the standard of living for the families of the workers.

The ball is now in the courts of Microsoft, HP, Dell, Nintendo, Sony, etc to step up and do the same, or better. More still needs to be done to address the alleged child labor issues, unpaid forced overtime & other work related conditions. Apple has long been a leader in the consumer electronics arena. They now have taken a good first step towards becoming a leader in the human rights arena. Thank you Steve!!


http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=18571

 

[Miramonti]

Money doesn't solve everything, particularly when the facts have been hidden as to why the suicides are happening.

Long hours? No breaks? Having to piss in a bucket? Dorm infestations? Mental abuse? Physical abuse? and so on, and so on... If salary alone was the issue to make so many people suicidal, was their pay really 20% away from making them very content people/employees?

Seriously, Jobs is absolutely doing these people a disservice if his capitalist 'give 20% more salary and ignore the facts' is his main response to this. It may work well in the PR arena, but can just as easily be a stab in the back to the workers and their working conditions, and their hope for significant improvement.

/edit: I'd also add possible chemical exposure as a possible contributor.

 

[TheWart]

Money doesn't solve everything, particularly when the facts have been hidden as to why the suicides are happening.

Long hours? No breaks? Having to piss in a bucket? Dorm infestations? Mental abuse? Physical abuse? and so on, and so on... If salary alone was the issue to make so many people suicidal, was their pay really 20% away from making them very content people/employees?

Seriously, Jobs is absolutely doing these people a disservice if his capitalist 'give 20% more salary and ignore the facts' is his main response to this. It may work well in the PR arena, but can just as easily be a stab in the back to the workers and their working conditions, and their hope for significant improvement.

What? How is giving them more money a bad thing? Sure, it doesn't fix all of the systemic issues at that factory, but I don't see how you can paint it as a 'bad' thing.

 

[Miramonti]

What? How is giving them more money a bad thing? Sure, it doesn't fix all of the systemic issues at that factory, but I don't see how you can paint it as a 'bad' thing.

It's a bad thing if this is his major response. A good thing would be to assess what conditions are making these people suicidal.

Do you really thing the problems stem from the fact they are paid 20% less than they should be? Sure, being underpaid is probably part of it, but he needs to own up to what's going on over there and commit to making changes to the fullest extent that give these workers the worker/human rights that they deserve. It's obviously a lot more than a 20% pay disparity.

 

[TheWart]

It's a bad thing if this is his major response. A good thing would be to assess what conditions are making these people suicidal.

Do you really thing the problems stem from the fact they are paid 20% less than they should be? He needs to own up to what's going on over there and commit to making changes to the fullest extent that give these workers the worker/human rights that they deserve. It's obviously a lot more than a 20% pay disparity.

Aside from the whole 'foxconn suicide rate is lower than China's avg,' argument, I have to ask whether we really know what sort of leverage Apple has here. If apple had a lot of leverage over Foxconn, I would have to imagine that they would have forced foxconn to eat the 20% raise, instead of paying it out of their own pocket.

As Apple is only one of many heavy hitters using foxconn, I don't think that if foxconn lost apple that they would go bankrupt. If, however, HP/Apple/IMB/whoever else uses the plant/ all banded together then they might be able to force foxconn to change conditions there...but just apple? I think that is doubtful.

 

[KeithP]

Money doesn't solve everything, particularly when the facts have been hidden as to why the suicides are happening.

As I understand, the suicide rate of Foxconn workers is less than the Chinese population as whole. So, as far as working conditions go, the suicides are irrelevant.

-KeithP

 

[Miramonti]

Aside from the whole 'foxconn suicide rate is lower than China's avg,' argument, I have to ask whether we really know what sort of leverage Apple has here. If apple had a lot of leverage over Foxconn, I would have to imagine that they would have forced foxconn to eat the 20% raise, instead of paying it out of their own pocket.

As Apple is only one of many heavy hitters using foxconn, I don't think that if foxconn lost apple that they would go bankrupt. If, however, HP/Apple/IMB/whoever else uses the plant/ all banded together then they might be able to force foxconn to change conditions there...but just apple? I think that is doubtful.

To the best of my knowledge, and common sense, Foxconns suicide rate is not below the average suicide rate for china's factory workers (muchless of very successful manufacturing companies.) These are people that have jobs, that are supporting their families, theoretically should have a stronger sense of self-esteem and ability to manage their challenges. In general, they should not be compared to the suicide rates of those overcome by shame, futility, and helplessness that the unemployed, the unsuccessful (as measured by themselves and society), or the fringe demographic of china's culture and society faces.

For Jobs to pay 20% more to accommodate foxconn salary increases, it ensures the money will be used for this (theoretically!) There's nothing to say the management won't take it for themselves tho, unless there is followup and accountability from apple, something that apparently is still quite lacking since the facts of these suicides are still not public. It does nothing to address other issues, perhaps even more significant and destructive to these people's physical/mental state.

 

[metalmania]

As I understand, the suicide rate of Foxconn workers is less than the Chinese population as whole. So, as far as working conditions go, the suicides are irrelevant.

-KeithP

If you consider the frequency, there is something seriously wrong.

If you consider the victims are all young, there is something seriously wrong.

Do not compare apples to oranges.

 

[Miramonti]

Aside from the whole 'foxconn suicide rate is lower than China's avg,' argument, I have to ask whether we really know what sort of leverage Apple has here.

Negative publicity is powerful. Apple has all the leverage that's needed to see that the proper changes and improvements are made.

Apple leaving Foxconn due to "worker/human rights abuses" would be the last foxconn needs in the media, which would put pressure and scrutiny on any other multinationals that do significant business with foxconn to reevaluate their partnerships.

 

[accguy9009]

Negative publicity is powerful. Apple has all the leverage that's needed to see that the proper changes and improvements are made.

Apple leaving Foxconn due to "worker/human rights abuses" would be the last foxconn needs in the media, which would put pressure and scrutiny on any other multinationals that do significant business with foxconn to reevaluate their partnerships.

Excellent point jjsole, you are a wise an considerate individual. I wish I had thought of that point first, lol.

 

[Miramonti]

Excellent point jjsole, you are a wise an considerate individual. I wish I had thought of that point first, lol.

You must have been too busy anointing Steve Jobs as a human rights hero, when he has in effect done little to nothing to ensure Foxconn fixes its own internal problems. 😉

 

[accguy9009]

You must have been too busy anointing Steve Jobs as a human rights hero, when he has in effect done little to nothing to ensure Foxconn fixes its own internal problems. 😉

A lot of my friends and colleagues over the years have faulted me for praising Apple every chance I get. I have plenty of faults and if praising Steve for taking the right first step to helping these workers, payroll wise anyway, is one of them I can live with that. My OP did clearly state that more needs to be done to address working conditions overall. My opinion is that Steve is in negotiation with Foxconns parent co. to see that conditions are improved. If this does happen it will, no doubt, cost Apple more to build their electronics. Steve may be working with other possible future mfg. co's who will build his gear in a "greener" environment and who will provide much better conditions for workers. I believe, or would like to anyway, that Steve will be on the front lines to see that workers building his hardware get proper conditions in the future. Rome wasn't built in a day and some negotiations take time to reach fruition.

 

[AnyMal]

You must have been too busy anointing Steve Jobs as a human rights hero, when he has in effect done little to nothing to ensure Foxconn fixes its own internal problems. 😉

I do not think anyone here is saying that Apple's contribution is going to solve the problems at Foxconn. That said, we can not deny that at least Apple is doing something unlike Dell, Microsoft, Logitech, and other major brands that utilize Foxconn. Would Apple ditching Foxconn make a loud statement? Of course it will. Is it going to solve the issue of poor working conditions? That's up in the air. Let's not be rash in dissing Apple for what they're doing. Even a little contribution is better then nothing at all.

 

[Miramonti]

A lot of my friends and colleagues over the years have faulted me for praising Apple every chance I get. I have plenty of faults and if praising Steve for taking the right first step to helping these workers, payroll wise anyway, is one of them I can live with that. My OP did clearly state that more needs to be done to address working conditions overall. My opinion is that Steve is in negotiation with Foxconns parent co. to see that conditions are improved. If this does happen it will, no doubt, cost Apple more to build their electronics. Steve may be working with other possible further mfg. co's who will build his gear in a "greener" environment and who will provide much better conditions for workers. I believe, or would like to anyway, that Steve will be on the front lines to see that workers building his hardware get proper conditions in the future. Rome wasn't built in a day and some negotiations take time to reach fruition.

Point understood, and me too.

I would like to see them continue to use Foxconn since foxconn isn't going away anytime soon and he's in a great position to positively affect change. Apple has high margins and has room to give (such as offering more money to increase worker salaries), but the changes that are needed most in the long run are changes and concessions by foxconn themselves, not directly from Jobs.

It would be great to see Jobs stay the course to be the change agent that's desperately needed for this company, not to mention as a result even affect the culture of worker's rights in Chinese industry as a whole. At that point I'd gladly consider him a human rights hero, even if it makes him much richer than he already is.

 

[accguy9009]

Point understood, and me too.

I would like to see them continue to use Foxconn since foxconn isn't going away anytime soon and he's in a great position to positively affect change. Apple has high margins and has room to give (such as offering more money to increase worker salaries), but the changes that are needed most in the long run are changes and concessions by foxconn themselves, not directly from Jobs.

It would be great to see Jobs stay the course to be the change agent that's desperately needed for this company, not to mention as a result even affect the culture of worker's rights in Chinese industry as a whole. At that point I'd gladly consider him a human rights hero, even if it makes him much richer than he already is.

Your thoughts and observations about Apple being in a "great position to positively affect change" at Foxconn are brilliant and right on point. Sadly I no longer have the mental acuity
to see things like this as clearly as you do. Let me give you a pat on the back for seeing what others choose not too.

 

[compman25]

I do not think anyone here is saying that Apple's contribution is going to solve the problems at Foxconn. That said, we can not deny that at least Apple is doing something unlike Dell, Microsoft, Logitech, and other major brands that utilize Foxconn. Would Apple ditching Foxconn make a loud statement? Of course it will. Is it going to solve the issue of poor working conditions? That's up in the air. Let's not be rash in dissing Apple for what they're doing. Even a little contribution is better then nothing at all.

How do you know that the employees making Dell's, Microsoft's and Logitech's products aren't already getting 20% more than the ones making the Apple products? Maybe all he is doing is making sure those employees get the same as all the other employees.

 

[Emulex]

36 cents a day? they deserve the american minimum wage. we should just take over china and make those oriental-american's since they work so hard.

you wouldn't mind paying $2000 for an ipad instead of $400 right?

 

[AnyMal]

How do you know that the employees making Dell's, Microsoft's and Logitech's products aren't already getting 20% more than the ones making the Apple products? Maybe all he is doing is making sure those employees get the same as all the other employees.

Are you saying that Foxconn worker's pay differs depending on who they're making products for? I find that hard to believe. Got any info?

Apple is the only company that's doing something for those workers and forcing a change, while Dell and others do nothing. I'd like OP to start threads bashing Dell, Microsoft, and others for not doing anything, but that's not going to happen because he's clearely biased against Apple.

 

[accguy9009]

Are you saying that Foxconn worker's pay differs depending on who they're making products for? I find that hard to believe. Got any info?

Apple is the only company that's doing something for those workers and forcing a change, while Dell and others do nothing. I'd like OP to start threads bashing Dell, Microsoft, and others for not doing anything, but that's not going to happen because he's clearely biased against Apple.

AnyMal, I respect your feelings and opinions mate, I really do. All of the OEM's using Foxconn and the other mfgs who provide these horrific conditions for employees need to address these issues in a substantive way. I praised Apple here for taking a good first
step in helping the workers. I said the ball was in the courts of the other OEM's and I named some names and others I left out need to become part of the solution as well. I originally got started expressing my concerns for the workers after reading several articles on Daily Tech about the suicides at the plant where workers were building electronic devices for Apple. I haven't seen any stories about workers building stuff for Dell, HP, Sony, Acer, Microsoft, Logitech etc. committing suicide. Maybe they are and it is not being reported. I originally felt and said Apple had the clout and the $ to start the process to correct this issue. There are no quick fixes. The culture that created these conditions will not change overnight. You may call me biased. You are entitled to your opinion. Reasonable people can have different thoughts and feelings on a subject of this nature.

You seem to want to make this about me. Thats your choice. I happen to feel you could be a bit more open minded on this subject, even if you said something like-"We all know Apple has never been wrong but on this matter they were not so good on being right". I would have a bit more respect for your objectivity if you had.

Lets just say we agree we disagree on this subject, fair enuf mate?

 

[compman25]

Are you saying that Foxconn worker's pay differs depending on who they're making products for? I find that hard to believe. Got any info?

Apple is the only company that's doing something for those workers and forcing a change, while Dell and others do nothing. I'd like OP to start threads bashing Dell, Microsoft, and others for not doing anything, but that's not going to happen because he's clearely biased against Apple.

I'm saying if Apple is giving a 20% raise now wouldn't that mean the ones building Apple products are paid different then the ones making the other companies products? So how do you know the other companies aren't already paying more so the employees making their products are getting more to begin with and Apple is just catching up to the others?

 

[AnyMal]

I'm saying if Apple is giving a 20% raise now wouldn't that mean the ones building Apple products are paid different then the ones making the other companies products? So how do you know the other companies aren't already paying more so the employees making their products are getting more to begin with and Apple is just catching up to the others?

Where did you see that only workers who build Apple products would be eligible for raises? From everyting I've seen that raise would apply to all production workers.

AnyMal, I respect your feelings and opinions mate, I really do. All of the OEM's using Foxconn and the other mfgs who provide these horrific conditions for employees need to address these issues in a substantive way. I praised Apple here for taking a good first
step in helping the workers. I said the ball was in the courts of the other OEM's and I named some names and others I left out need to become part of the solution as well. I originally got started expressing my concerns for the workers after reading several articles on Daily Tech about the suicides at the plant where workers were building electronic devices for Apple. I haven't seen any stories about workers building stuff for Dell, HP, Sony, Acer, Microsoft, Logitech etc. committing suicide. Maybe they are and it is not being reported. I originally felt and said Apple had the clout and the $ to start the process to correct this issue. There are no quick fixes. The culture that created these conditions will not change overnight. You may call me biased. You are entitled to your opinion. Reasonable people can have different thoughts and feelings on a subject of this nature.

You seem to want to make this about me. Thats your choice. I happen to feel you could be a bit more open minded on this subject, even if you said something like-"We all know Apple has never been wrong but on this matter they were not so good on being right". I would have a bit more respect for your objectivity if you had.

Lets just say we agree we disagree on this subject, fair enuf mate?

It appears that Daily Tech is misleading its readers. Apple is just one of Foxconn customers and I have no idea how Daily Tech was able to discern that workers who commited suicides worked exclusively on Apple products. As I understand, there is no way to verify that claim. I believe it's called "sensationalism" and reeks of bad journalism, but I certainly understand that Apple makes for a "juicy" target.

 

[accguy9009]

36 cents a day? they deserve the american minimum wage. we should just take over china and make those oriental-american's since they work so hard.

you wouldn't mind paying $2000 for an ipad instead of $400 right?

If it costs $ 2000 to the end user for the device while providing more humane conditions to the people who make the ipads, so be it. It is what it is. Its not like people have to have a tablet. Since when is the iPad $ 400? They start at $ 500. Don't let the facts get in the way of you making your feelings on the subject known, lol.

 

[AnyMal]

If it costs $ 2000 to the end user for the device while providing more humane conditions to the people who make the ipads, so be it. It is what it is. Its not like people have to have a tablet. Since when is the iPad $ 400? They start at $ 500. Don't let the facts get in the way of you making your feelings on the subject known, lol.

You're right, the price difference between $500 and $2000 is so negligible most everyone should be able to afford it. You're right, no one needs a tablet, just like no one needs a computer, a cell phone, plasma TV, or Nintendo game system. Since most, if not all of those things, are made in China nowdays we should either volunteer to pay ten-fold in a faint hope that at least some of that money will trickle down to Chinese workers, or simply stop buying their stuff outright. Of course, this would mean few hundred thousand US retail and logistics workers might lose their jobs, but hey, maybe there will be one less suicide in China. Right?

 

[accguy9009]

You're right, the price difference between $500 and $2000 is so negligible most everyone should be able to afford it. You're right, no one needs a tablet, just like no one needs a computer, a cell phone, plasma TV, or Nintendo game system. Since most, if not all of those things, are made in China nowdays we should either volunteer to pay ten-fold in a faint hope that at least some of that money will trickle down to Chinese workers, or simply stop buying their stuff outright. Of course, this would mean few hundred thousand US retail and logistics workers might lose their jobs, but hey, maybe there will be one less suicide in China. Right?

Just curious mate, where did you get the $ 2000 price point anyway, lol? I am sure that number may be a few fazules off the accurate figure, no? Your whole premise sounds like a Fugazi to me, mate. Don't confuse the issues with the facts, mate. Please don't do this.

 

[AnyMal]

Just curious mate, where did you get the $ 2000 price point anyway, lol? I am sure that number may be a few fazules off the accurate figure, no? Your whole premise sounds like a Fugazi to me, mate. Don't confuse the issues with the facts, mate. Please don't do this.

I got it from this guy.

If it costs $ 2000 to the end user for the device while providing more humane conditions to the people who make the ipads, so be it. It is what it is. Its not like people have to have a tablet. Since when is the iPad $ 400? They start at $ 500. Don't let the facts get in the way of you making your feelings on the subject known, lol.

Fugazi indeed.