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TF2 questions and rants

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ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: ayabe
So bunny hopping and grenades for all classes add depth? I don't think so.
Then you haven't thought about it. Yes of course it adds depth. Look at this way, you could play TF1 without these things and you had 1 game, then you could slowly learn these things over time until you are playing a completely new game. This is why you can watch a video of someone better than you playing a level and simply not even recognize the way they are moving about the level. New paths that open up, new strategies that come into play.

The way the game changes as you learn new skills is the very definition of depth.
Cheap exploits and parlor tricks do not add depth.

Like BF2 macros? That's a "skill"? Grenade spamming is a "skill"? bunny hopping is a "skill"?

I think we're not going to see eye to eye on this because we're speaking a different language.
 

Robert Munch

Senior member
Oct 11, 2006
899
0
76
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: ayabe
So bunny hopping and grenades for all classes add depth? I don't think so.
Then you haven't thought about it. Yes of course it adds depth. Look at this way, you could play TF1 without these things and you had 1 game, then you could slowly learn these things over time until you are playing a completely new game. This is why you can watch a video of someone better than you playing a level and simply not even recognize the way they are moving about the level. New paths that open up, new strategies that come into play.

The way the game changes as you learn new skills is the very definition of depth.
Cheap exploits and parlor tricks do not add depth.

Like BF2 macros? That's a "skill"? Grenade spamming is a "skill"? bunny hopping is a "skill"?

I think we're not going to see eye to eye on this because we're speaking a different language.
yes bh requires good movement coordination to breeze on through a map and timing grenades without the weak time counters increase the chances of survival during reloads/out of ammo. TF1 has the capability of these aspects of rocket + gren combos and gren jumping. Spamming is lame and grenade delays are put in place to prevent it. It's opens up different tactics versus just point blank rocket firing at walls for that lucky frag from splash damage. TF1 is a completely different ballgame versus the nub friendly TF2.

Originally posted by: pontifex
Is there any story behind TF or TF2 at all? Like why are we all fighting against each other?
AFAIK there is no story i'm assuming it was made for LAN play back in 96' when it was created http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Fortress there is still a huge following for CUTF http://www.customtf.com/
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
The crits are no big deal imo. Sure it's annoying when you get killed by one, but it's such a fast paced game that you come right back and kill him back. And you have crits of your own too. I don't think a "critical meter" would work too well because this is a game where you are supposed to kill a lot, and die a lot. Adding something like that would simply detract from the mayhem. TF is all about the mayhem.
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
The story is two opposing businesses hire mercenaries to battle for their land. Or something.
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
Originally posted by: pontifex

yeah, i've had that happen with snipers a lot, especially near that corrugated iron paneling or whatever it is where the snipers like to hang out. i 've been behind it a few times and got hit.
That's a glitch in some of the gates where the areas above and below the gate let shots through.

I play sniper a lot and I agree the hit detection is off. Sometimes I just need to shoot near somebody's head and it registers a headshot.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
44
91
Originally posted by: dighn
Originally posted by: pontifex

yeah, i've had that happen with snipers a lot, especially near that corrugated iron paneling or whatever it is where the snipers like to hang out. i 've been behind it a few times and got hit.
That's a glitch in some of the gates where the areas above and below the gate let shots through.

I play sniper a lot and I agree the hit detection is off. Sometimes I just need to shoot near somebody's head and it registers a headshot.
actually, i should have specified that this is on 2fort, not a spawn area. i only tend to playon 24/7 2fort servers. i love ctf and the control point crap just annoys me.
 

40Hands

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2004
5,042
0
71
I played the original and TF:C. I really do not miss grenades. Say what you want about them but they definitely were not balanced.
 

Robert Munch

Senior member
Oct 11, 2006
899
0
76
Originally posted by: 40Hands
I played the original and TF:C. I really do not miss grenades. Say what you want about them but they definitely were not balanced.
maybe for TFC, players think otherwise on QWTF

 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,543
422
126
I don't know anything about the original TF, but TFC I hated the nades. I sucked at that game in general, but it always just felt like the grenades were "to much". Some of the grenades were cool because they were kind of unique...but they all made the game feel really spammy to me I guess.
 

Sureshot324

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
3,370
0
71
Valve designed this game so even a n00b could come into the game and do really well. For example, go engineer in 2fort and put a turret in the room with 2 stairs. You're guaranteed to be near the top of the list even if you have no skills whatsoever. This may make the game more accessible, but it's kind of cheating the more experienced players. Don't get me wrong, it's a fun game, but I can't see my self playing it long term.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Valve designed this game so even a n00b could come into the game and do really well. For example, go engineer in 2fort and put a turret in the room with 2 stairs. You're guaranteed to be near the top of the list even if you have no skills whatsoever. This may make the game more accessible, but it's kind of cheating the more experienced players. Don't get me wrong, it's a fun game, but I can't see my self playing it long term.
That's another major complaint I have: it's TOO accessible. People use to rock at 1 or 2 classes, but suck at the rest of them. Now, every class is masterable in about 10 minutes. I can attest to this as I use to suck at soldier and HW guy, but once I actually bothered playing them for 5 minutes, I was already near the top. Now I have no trouble being at/close to the top of every class. Clearly, this is the same for everyone else. Demoman use to be pretty hard to play, but now everyone and their mother has some of their highest scores with it. The instant kills just make it even easier. Way back when with TFC, there was no contest between a newb demo spamming regular grenades and a pipe (sticky) only demo with finesse. I still do better than most, but all it takes is one lucky shot and there goes my full health.

I also miss the grenades. When I started TF2, I was looking for the grenades button, thinking "it's gotta be there, no way they took something so important out...". TFC wasn't as fast-paced as TF2 is now, so it really didn't add to spam that much cause you only got a max of 4 (each), and if you used them too quick, everyone else still had their 4 to nail you. It also made classes more versatile cause even HW guys had frags to lob at sentries or whatever. Even on the second level of TFC Dustbowl, I did not see as much spam as there is now without them; only 1 backpack was available that resupplied grenades close to the action.

And a minor rant on HLstats I'm seeing on servers now: these stats are a joke. If I play as a normal (non-engy) class, I can make maybe 100 points a match cause every time a noob on the server gets me, there goes 20 points. Meanwhile I need to kill 10 just to make that back. On the otherhand, as long as I play engy, I can make around 500 a match so you may as well call it HLbuildspats.
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
TFC's Dustbowl was just stupid. The choke point was thinner than a TF2 Heavy and that was the ONLY way out. Nades I'm indifferent about, because I simply don't care. They didn't add anything, and taking them out didn't lessen anything. None of the classes are masterable in 10 minutes, but you can pick up on a class easily. Every class has their quirks that take a while to perfect.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
44
91
too accessible? that just sounds like a major elitist attitude.

uh oh, joe just started playing a week ago and he's already as good as me and i've been playing since the original TF!! i'm not leet any more!
 

RandomFool

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2001
3,913
0
71
www.loofmodnar.com
I've had a blast with TF. I did miss the grenades at first when it would have been nice to be able to drop some caltrops behind me while taking off with the flag. Now I'm kind of glad they're gone because it makes people focus more on shooting people than spamming grenades into choke points.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: pontifex
too accessible? that just sounds like a major elitist attitude.

uh oh, joe just started playing a week ago and he's already as good as me and i've been playing since the original TF!! i'm not leet any more!
Ya, it is slightly elitist which I hate to admit (not to the amount of "I'm not leet or cool enough anymore"), but the point stands: it is too easy for Joe Tuesday to be able to be able to kill everyone else as easily as everyone else by Wednesday. This isstupid to rant about, but come on, can you honestly tell me that you don't play an MMORPG or BF-clone to "put" yourself higher up (level or just score)? If you say no, then someone really has to explain to me the deal with all these competitive sports, school grade rankings and bureaucracy. Also, this kills the incentive to play more to get better, which in turn kills the lasting appeal.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
44
91
Originally posted by: Imp
Originally posted by: pontifex
too accessible? that just sounds like a major elitist attitude.

uh oh, joe just started playing a week ago and he's already as good as me and i've been playing since the original TF!! i'm not leet any more!
Ya, it is slightly elitist which I hate to admit (not to the amount of "I'm not leet or cool enough anymore"), but the point stands: it is too easy for Joe Tuesday to be able to be able to kill everyone else as easily as everyone else by Wednesday. This isstupid to rant about, but come on, can you honestly tell me that you don't play an MMORPG or BF-clone to "put" yourself higher up (level or just score)? If you say no, then someone really has to explain to me the deal with all these competitive sports, school grade rankings and bureaucracy. Also, this kills the incentive to play more to get better, which in turn kills the lasting appeal.
i try not to worry about score, but i will admit that i like to get a nice score, but its more about doing well than it is about being able to brag about it or to be better than someone else.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,219
383
126
I've played every Team Fortress since the QuakeWorld days and still find this one to be great. Only time will tell if I play it as consistently and as long as QW: TF (I admit I didn't play a ton of TFC but enough). So far I've had a blast playing it and can't wait to get home after work to play it, haha.

I like the inclusion of the voice chat, it makes forming strategies and communicating with team members way easier (as opposed to say QW: TF era). The art style is a refreshing change from the very realistic style they were originally shooting for with Team Fortress 2. I don't really miss the grenades though... not that I hated them in previous version, I just don't find their exclusion to be a bad thing.

For how early it is, I think it's pretty balanced overall. Though I f'ing hate pyros when I'm a medic. I swear I get killed by that class 90% when I am.

I'd like to see some quality user maps that mimic the old QW: TF ones I had so much fun playing too.

Overall so far I think it's quite good. No matter what Valve would've done with the game I think there's always going to be dissatisfied gamers. If you kept it basically QW: TF or TFC then they'd call it just a clone. Change it too much, then you lose the core gameplay. They've done a good job keeping the premise the same while introducing a few new things... props to them.
 

40Hands

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2004
5,042
0
71
Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Valve designed this game so even a n00b could come into the game and do really well. For example, go engineer in 2fort and put a turret in the room with 2 stairs. You're guaranteed to be near the top of the list even if you have no skills whatsoever. This may make the game more accessible, but it's kind of cheating the more experienced players. Don't get me wrong, it's a fun game, but I can't see my self playing it long term.
Cheating the more experienced players? :confused: Sounds like you might need to get some more experience yourself. Go ahead and put a turret in the ramp room...I'll take it out for you no problem. Each class has its counter class. If you have one really good engineer on a team and no good solders/heavy + medic or no good spy, sure the engineer is going to rock the score board. The game is about balance, skill and playing your part correctly. Pubs usually fail at this.


Originally posted by: pontifex
too accessible? that just sounds like a major elitist attitude.

uh oh, joe just started playing a week ago and he's already as good as me and i've been playing since the original TF!! i'm not leet any more!

I agree. They probably got frustrated Just because it's easy to figure out, does not mean it's easy to master. I would compare it to chess. Anyone can figure out how each piece moves but to master the game, you really need to know what you're doing. You cannot look at pub games and get a proper perspective of the game as a whole. Playing against a team that knows what they're doing is a different experience altogether.
 

getbush

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2001
1,771
0
0
Originally posted by: Imp
blah blah blah pass the cheese
I barely even check the score when I play. It's just about those funny moments that make you lol, whether it's a kill I make, or a kill someone makes on me. That and the teamwork on a good flag capture. It's a game. It's not a professional sport or school or politics. That's the whole point, to have fun. If the only thing that is fun to you is being the best, go play basketball with a bunch of kindergarteners and pwn those little bastards to your heart's content.
 

Robert Munch

Senior member
Oct 11, 2006
899
0
76
Originally posted by: clamum
I've played every Team Fortress since the QuakeWorld days and still find this one to be great. Only time will tell if I play it as consistently and as long as QW: TF (I admit I didn't play a ton of TFC but enough). So far I've had a blast playing it and can't wait to get home after work to play it, haha.

I like the inclusion of the voice chat, it makes forming strategies and communicating with team members way easier (as opposed to say QW: TF era). The art style is a refreshing change from the very realistic style they were originally shooting for with Team Fortress 2. I don't really miss the grenades though... not that I hated them in previous version, I just don't find their exclusion to be a bad thing.

For how early it is, I think it's pretty balanced overall. Though I f'ing hate pyros when I'm a medic. I swear I get killed by that class 90% when I am.

I'd like to see some quality user maps that mimic the old QW: TF ones I had so much fun playing too.

Overall so far I think it's quite good. No matter what Valve would've done with the game I think there's always going to be dissatisfied gamers. If you kept it basically QW: TF or TFC then they'd call it just a clone. Change it too much, then you lose the core gameplay. They've done a good job keeping the premise the same while introducing a few new things... props to them.
I completely agree with you on that refeshing feel from TF2 but coming from playing QWTF in it's heydays of 96 and to even playing it now, I feel stripped of not being able to BH and toss grens or perform rocket+gren/midair combos but, again it is a different playing field without these aspects and that's just my take on it.
and the pyro rockets were removed?

I wouldn't mind seeing rock2, spit, canyon1, 2fort4, street1, z7 and well6 recreated similar to the original bsp format.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: getbush
Originally posted by: Imp
blah blah blah pass the cheese
I barely even check the score when I play. It's just about those funny moments that make you lol, whether it's a kill I make, or a kill someone makes on me. That and the teamwork on a good flag capture. It's a game. It's not a professional sport or school or politics. That's the whole point, to have fun. If the only thing that is fun to you is being the best, go play basketball with a bunch of kindergarteners and pwn those little bastards to your heart's content.
Is it cheddar, I'll take some!

Yes, it is about having fun. TF2 is still very fun, and the accessibililty is what makes it so appealing. Remember Tribes/Tribes 2? You got raped as a noob cause it's so hard and now no one is playing it (well relative to HL). But what made it unique was that there was so much stuff to specialize get better at. It took days/weeks to learn the disc gun, another to learn heavy, and you had to use what YOU were good at to take care of a different class. In TF2, getting raped by someone? Just go demo and and spam him to death or spam something else, hope for a critical.

And this isn't about being the best or having a good score. It's about stuff being too easy. Everyone has essentially the same style, same strengths, same weaknesses, bla bla bla. Oh, and fyi, I don't care about my score most of the time cause it's not going to get me anywhere. I'm just trying to best my old personal achievements most of the time. Hell, most fun I'm having these days is engineer which usually puts me near the bottom.
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
2
81
Originally posted by: Imp
Originally posted by: pontifex
too accessible? that just sounds like a major elitist attitude.

uh oh, joe just started playing a week ago and he's already as good as me and i've been playing since the original TF!! i'm not leet any more!
Ya, it is slightly elitist which I hate to admit (not to the amount of "I'm not leet or cool enough anymore"), but the point stands: it is too easy for Joe Tuesday to be able to be able to kill everyone else as easily as everyone else by Wednesday. This isstupid to rant about, but come on, can you honestly tell me that you don't play an MMORPG or BF-clone to "put" yourself higher up (level or just score)? If you say no, then someone really has to explain to me the deal with all these competitive sports, school grade rankings and bureaucracy. Also, this kills the incentive to play more to get better, which in turn kills the lasting appeal.
Wow.

Your e-peen not big enough?

Maybe go buy a huge truck - that'll help.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Wow.

Your e-peen not big enough?

Maybe go buy a huge truck - that'll help.
Ya, it's all about e-peen. This game dwarfs it. Hail to the superior elitist who is too good for this kiddy crap and caring about a challenge.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
The critical hits rock. That shit is FUN as hell even if you are on the receiving end.

I think it really adds an element of fun to the game. Don't get started on some "skill" argument. You can't get a crit if you can't make the hit. It does not give a noob any real advantage over a skilled person. Statistically someone skilled will get many more kills from crits than a noob will simply because they'll hit more often.

If you are getting one shotted from a noob more than once in a great great while then perhaps it's because you aren't as l337 as you think you are.

I personally like the "ooohhh giblets!" factor of the crits...then again I dish out more than I receive. :)
 

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