Texas Rape Survivors Billed for Rape Kits

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

No, sadly, it's not a "BS" stat. To be more accurate I should have said 1/4 to 1/3, but I've seen studies where the number is near 50%. It depends on the population being studied, women in the military tend to have even higher rates than civilians. As I mentioned above, I spent my entire last semester writing three research papers on the subject of female college rape victims.

The vast majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes, typically involving alcohol or drugs, and typically occurring during the first two years of college. I also helped to create and conduct a study for my advanced research class that had similar findings.

The "hook up" culture has made it much worse. Women go out, get absolutely wasted, and wake up in someone else's room with no idea how they got there. Legal Consent cannot be obtained while you are inebriated, and such a situation meets the legal definition of rape.

Oh, and since it'll come up sooner or later, my name is Carmen, but I'm male.

I think "hook-up culture" is a red herring. Rape is committed by rapists, not alcohol or promiscuity. And rapists are overwhelmingly male. To end rape we need to end the culture that creates them, not the culture that you (and I) think enables them. To end rape culture, we need to tell men that they should not "convince" women to sleep with them after they have said no. We need to tell men that they are not entitled to vaginal intercourse if they were receiving oral, and they're not entitled to anal if they were having vaginal. We need to tell men. We need to tell men that just because a woman's skirt is short, she's not "asking for it." We need to tell men that one "no" should end the discussion.

Most of all, we need to tell men and women that both partners should be enjoying themselves.

"Hook-up culture" does not create rape, it makes it easier to do and harder to get caught. This is an important distinction, because critiques of "hook-up culture" quickly turn into victim-blaming.

 

[RoloMather]

Bill the guy that raped her.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

No, sadly, it's not a "BS" stat. To be more accurate I should have said 1/4 to 1/3, but I've seen studies where the number is near 50%. It depends on the population being studied, women in the military tend to have even higher rates than civilians. As I mentioned above, I spent my entire last semester writing three research papers on the subject of female college rape victims.

The vast majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes, typically involving alcohol or drugs, and typically occurring during the first two years of college. I also helped to create and conduct a study for my advanced research class that had similar findings.

The "hook up" culture has made it much worse. Women go out, get absolutely wasted, and wake up in someone else's room with no idea how they got there. Legal Consent cannot be obtained while you are inebriated, and such a situation meets the legal definition of rape.

Oh, and since it'll come up sooner or later, my name is Carmen, but I'm male.

I think "hook-up culture" is a red herring. Rape is committed by rapists, not alcohol or promiscuity. And rapists are overwhelmingly male. To end rape we need to end the culture that creates them, not the culture that you (and I) think enables them. To end rape culture, we need to tell men that they should not "convince" women to sleep with them after they have said no. We need to tell men that they are not entitled to vaginal intercourse if they were receiving oral, and they're not entitled to anal if they were having vaginal. We need to tell men. We need to tell men that just because a woman's skirt is short, she's not "asking for it." We need to tell men that one "no" should end the discussion.

Most of all, we need to tell men and women that both partners should be enjoying themselves.

"Hook-up culture" does not create rape, it makes it easier to do and harder to get caught. This is an important distinction, because critiques of "hook-up culture" quickly turn into victim-blaming.

I'm not saying we should try to end the "culture" as it were. That won't happen through anything we can do. As you said though, these one time sexual encounters significantly increase the likelihood of being sexually victimized. Alcohol is often used by would be rapists as a door opener (*ahem*.) Helping women identify the types of situations where they may be at risk is common sense in my book, which is why "hook ups" are investigated.

Sexual assertiveness training for women (and men) has had good results. Oftentimes there is a communication disconnect between the man and woman that leads to these acquaintance rapes. Helping some woman overcome passivity, and men recognize that no means no, lowers the chance of this happening. A lot of woman still believe that if they get a man aroused they need to provide him relief. Another problem is that a lot of these 18 year old freshman have one night stands with seniors, expecting them to become "boyfriends." A lot of guys take advantage of their naivete.

There are some areas that are gray, particularly coercion. I'm married, I've definitely coerced my wife into sex when she probably didn't want to. Does that make me a rapist? In the context of a hook up, it probably would, but in a committed relationship, it's a different story.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
I'm not saying we should try to end the "culture" as it were. That won't happen through anything we can do. As you said though, these one time sexual encounters significantly increase the likelihood of being sexually victimized. Alcohol is often used by would be rapists as a door opener (*ahem*.) Helping women identify the types of situations where they may be at risk is common sense in my book, which is why "hook ups" are investigated.

Sexual assertiveness training for women (and men) has had good results. Oftentimes there is a communication disconnect between the male and female that leads to these acquaintance rapes, so helping some woman overcome passivity can be extremely helpful.

There are some areas that are gray, particularly coercion. I'm married, I've definitely coerced my wife into sex when she probably didn't want to. Does that make me a rapist? In the context of a hook up, it probably would, but in a committed relationship, it's a different story.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think there needs to be more emphasis on the male role in rape. Telling women to avoid high-risk environments and to be more assertive totally ignores men, the people who are doing the raping. It's ridiculous to demand that the victims change their behavior while ignoring the rapists' actions. Men are responsible for rape; rape prevention should target us. As long as rape is thought of as a "women's issue," rape culture will not end.

As an example, if a neighborhood is being overrun by crime, the easier response is to tell the residents to move or carry a concealed weapon. The better response is to reduce the crime.

 

[Riceninja]

Originally posted by: n yusefRapists: rape a poor woman. She won't be able to afford the evidence needed to prosecute you.

thanks 4 protip

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

So lets look at this a differrent way....
If somebody beats the snot out of you and breaks an arm and a leg........and it was not your fault at all...should the hospital bill you for services rendered even though it was not your fault......hmnmmm

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: n yusef

I see your Men's Rights books and raise you Yes Means Yes: Visons of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape.

Rape is a problem, and it is under-reported. I don't really feel like arguing with a rape-apologizing MRA though.

I didn't say it isn't a problem and I'm not an apologist for it. If you guys would read my most more carefully you would see that I'm questioning the 1/3 to 1/4 of women on campus have been raped statistic.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: n yusefTwo people, Dan and Vicki, are be comfortable with one sexual activity. Dan "escalates" and attempts to do something that makes Vicki is uncomfortable. She expresses her discomfort, but is ignored. Dan tries again, but with a little more force this time. He is getting angry; he pressures Vicki into an unwanted sexual activity, and eventually she concedes. Do you think this is rape?

Vicki "consented" to the sex, but not because she wanted to. Rather, she was probably fearful of an angry man who was getting increasingly physical. She may have thought her safest option was to lie there and "get it over with." Vicki may have internalized victim blaming rhetoric, and thought that she couldn't be raped because she had already done another sexual activity with Dan. She would have teased him, and he would be unable to control his hormones. She may have thought that this type of sexual experience is normal, and assumed that she just needed to accept it if she wanted to attract men.

Rape is more than a random attack from an armed man in a dark alley. Often, it happens without great resistance, and some people take this to mean that it was "sex that she regrets." I cannot agree with this assessment.

You're assuming that in all of those cases the women consented only because they feared physical coercion. Maybe they feared the man would lose interest in them (perfectly legitimate).

The logical implications of what you are suggesting is bordering on men and women having to get lawyers before engaging in sexual activity. If we took your same logic and applied it to men's lives, couldn't we come up with a whole boatload of indignities that men have to suffer?

"He went into the military because he was afraid he'd be drafted."

"As a two month old he consented to the circumcision because he had no choice."

"He worked the dangerous job where he died because he feared his wife would leave him if he didn't bring in the money."

"He tolerated his wife's cheating on him because he was afraid that the biased and unjust family law courts would strip him of all his income and savings and forbid him from seeing his children if he tried to divorce her."

"The woman said the baby was his child and not being very sophisticated he signed the papers but now he knows but the courts are still forcing him to pay child support even though DNA tests have proven that the kid isn't his."

"He felt raped after having been falsely accused of rape. He felt worse knowing that even though the police knew she made it up, prosecutors wouldn't investigate it or prosecute her and there weren't really any legal penalties for a false accusation (such as having to serve the sentence a convicted rapist would serve) other than a $500 fine. (Numerous stories of this get reported in the news--see the Duke Lacrosse Rape Hoax for a classic example of a lack of punishment for a false accuser and as an example of how Marxist-Feminists, the media, a university, and prosecutors tried to railroad innocent men.)

"She lied to him about being on the pill and now he's an involuntary father since there isn't any such thing as 'paper abortions for men'."1

Now, I agree with you that in some circumstances something like what you describe where there is some sort of implied physical coercion might be rape, but it's gotta be more than traditional aggressive courtship, such as guys' getting past "no" by being persistent while not using physical coercion or threats of violence.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

So lets look at this a differrent way....
If somebody beats the snot out of you and breaks an arm and a leg........and it was not your fault at all...should the hospital bill you for services rendered even though it was not your fault......hmnmmm

Let me guess, you ate a lot of paint chips as a kid.


A rape kit does not heal/repair a rape victim; it is to collect evidence.
Repairing a broken arm does not collect evidence; it is only to heal the person.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

So lets look at this a differrent way....
If somebody beats the snot out of you and breaks an arm and a leg........and it was not your fault at all...should the hospital bill you for services rendered even though it was not your fault......hmnmmm

i would agree IF the fact taht the cast was used for evidence of a crime. nobody is saying pay for the womens medical care. we are saying that she should NOT have to pay for the rape kit since its used to find out who did it.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: n yusef

I see your Men's Rights books and raise you Yes Means Yes: Visons of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape.

Rape is a problem, and it is under-reported. I don't really feel like arguing with a rape-apologizing MRA though.

I didn't say it isn't a problem and I'm not an apologist for it. If you guys would read my most more carefully you would see that I'm questioning the 1/3 to 1/4 of women on campus have been raped statistic.

Well, feel free to question it, as I did myself when I began looking into this issue. However, the evidence is very hard to refute at this point. It's been conducted by multiple different research teams, in different regions of the country, with very different populations of women. It's been done over a period of years. Go spend some time on PsychInfo searching for sexual aggression, rape, and sexual assault. You will see the plethora of research available.

There are many different situations where woman get raped. Consenting because you feel physical coercion isn't consenting at all. Consenting because you fear the man will leave you isn't not consent, that is simply another form of psychological coercion.

N yusef,
Assertiveness training isn't about victim-blaming, it's about giving women the tools to communicate their sexual desires more effectively and physical methods they can use to get their point across if necessary. As for the high-risk environment stuff, it isn't about teaching them to avoid those situations, it's about teaching them to recognize them in the first place. A *lot* of women do not realize they are in a dangerous situations. That is what these programs aim to correct, by teaching woman to use buddy systems or other things.

I see it as akin to self-defense training.

 

[Carmen813]

Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of 16th and Locust??
?Yes.?
?Did you struggle with the robber??
?No.?
?Why not??
?He was armed.?
?Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than to resist??
?Yes.?
?Did you scream? Cry out??
?No. I was afraid.?
?I see. Have you ever been held up before??
?No.?
?Have you ever given money away??
?Yes, of course??
?And did you do so willingly??
?What are you getting at??
?Well, let?s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You?ve given away money in the past?in fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren?t contriving to have your money taken from you by force??
?Listen, if I wanted??
?Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith??
?About 11 p.m.?
?You were out on the streets at 11 p.m.? Doing what??
?Just walking.?
?Just walking? You know it?s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren?t you aware that you could have been held up??
?I hadn?t thought about it.?
?What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith??
?Let?s see. A suit. Yes, a suit.?
?An expensive suit??
?Well?yes.?
?In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be a good target for some easy money, isn?t that so? I mean, if we didn?t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think you were asking for this to happen, mightn?t we??
?Look, can?t we talk about the past history of the guy who did this to me??
?I?m afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don?t think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you??

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: n yusef

I see your Men's Rights books and raise you Yes Means Yes: Visons of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape.

Rape is a problem, and it is under-reported. I don't really feel like arguing with a rape-apologizing MRA though.

I didn't say it isn't a problem and I'm not an apologist for it. If you guys would read my most more carefully you would see that I'm questioning the 1/3 to 1/4 of women on campus have been raped statistic.

Well, feel free to question it, as I did myself when I began looking into this issue. However, the evidence is very hard to refute at this point. It's been conducted by multiple different research teams, in different regions of the country, with very different populations of women. It's been done over a period of years. Go spend some time on PsychInfo searching for sexual aggression, rape, and sexual assault. You will see the plethora of research available.

There are many different situations where woman get raped. Consenting because you feel physical coercion isn't consenting at all. Consenting because you fear the man will leave you isn't not consent, that is simply another form of psychological coercion.

N yusef,
Assertiveness training isn't about victim-blaming, it's about giving women the tools to communicate their sexual desires more effectively and physical methods they can use to get their point across if necessary. As for the high-risk environment stuff, it isn't about teaching them to avoid those situations, it's about teaching them to recognize them in the first place. A *lot* of women do not realize they are in a dangerous situations. That is what these programs aim to correct, by teaching woman to use buddy systems or other things.

I see it as akin to self-defense training.

I agree that assertiveness training and high-risk environment recognition are good, but they needs to be accompanied by anti-rape education aimed ar men. It's not the programs that are victim blaming, it's the attitude. To only focus on women and to frame rape as a "women's issue" is victim blaming.

I think we agree more than we disagree

 

[theeedude]

Keeps the taxes low, so must be a good thing.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
There are many different situations where woman get raped. Consenting because you feel physical coercion isn't consenting at all. Consenting because you fear the man will leave you isn't not consent, that is simply another form of psychological coercion.

How do you define physical coercion? Shouldn't some actual or actual implied threat of force be involved? I'm just having a difficult time believing that about 10% or so of the college educated male population are rapists. I don't believe it.

Also, I'm fully aware that academia is infested with Marxist-Feminists who want to paint males as primitive, if not outright evil, Neanderthals. Hence, any of these studies that result in shocking numbers need to be taken with rocks of salt, especially after the bogus claims that women earn less than men for the same type of work, amount of work, and effort have been refuted (yet the media still say women earn 77 cents for every dollar men earn ignoring the context of having to consider equal work and effort.)

 

[Cattlegod]

so if someone gets shot by a gun, hit by a car, or are poisoned they shouldn't have to pay the bill to have their life saved if they don't know who did it? Who do you suggest pays? I sure as hell don't want my tax money going to that stuff, I have insurance for a reason.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
so if someone gets shot by a gun, hit by a car, or are poisoned they shouldn't have to pay the bill to have their life saved if they don't know who did it? Who do you suggest pays? I sure as hell don't want my tax money going to that stuff, I have insurance for a reason.

Do you know what a rape kit is? It's a test to gather evidence about the crime, not medical care. Billing victims for rape kits is a pay-for-play judicial system. It is morally indefensible.

 

[cubby1223]

^^^

You know what? Life ain't fair. We *all* have our own set of injustices that don't get paid for by the government. Deal with it.

Self reliance is a wonderful thing that liberals have destroyed.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
so if someone gets shot by a gun, hit by a car, or are poisoned they shouldn't have to pay the bill to have their life saved if they don't know who did it? Who do you suggest pays? I sure as hell don't want my tax money going to that stuff, I have insurance for a reason.

Do you know what a rape kit is? It's a test to gather evidence about the crime, not medical care. Billing victims for rape kits is a pay-for-play judicial system. It is morally indefensible.

But it is still a service that I would assume is provided by doctors. They have to bill someone for the service. I dont think the state should be first in line to receive such bills. I have little problem with insurance and the investigating authority being in first in line to receive to the bill and without a doubt the state should be at the end of line for receiving the bill.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Rape victims are treated pretty damn poorly, which is why it's one of the least reported, yet most common, crimes in the country. Something like 1/4 to 1/2 of all college woman meet the legal definition of having been raped during their college career. It's just disturbing.

Rape kits themselves are extremely cheap, like 20 dollars. Then again, what would you expect from the state that only made it illegal for men to rape their wives in the 1990s?

I've heard stats like that, but honestly if that's true, either I'm completely ignorant, which is possible, or the legal definition is extremely broad--too broad. I know that more people qualify as alcoholics than I think prudent, based on the extremely broad definition of alcoholism.

Anyway, I thought it was ok to make fun of China billing family members for the bullet used to put to death one of their own, and this seems similar in imprudence.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
^^^

You know what? Life ain't fair. We *all* have our own set of injustices that don't get paid for by the government. Deal with it.

Self reliance is a wonderful thing that liberals have destroyed.

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
so if someone gets shot by a gun, hit by a car, or are poisoned they shouldn't have to pay the bill to have their life saved if they don't know who did it? Who do you suggest pays? I sure as hell don't want my tax money going to that stuff, I have insurance for a reason.

Do you know what a rape kit is? It's a test to gather evidence about the crime, not medical care. Billing victims for rape kits is a pay-for-play judicial system. It is morally indefensible.

But it is still a service that I would assume is provided by doctors. They have to bill someone for the service. I dont think the state should be first in line to receive such bills. I have little problem with insurance and the investigating authority being in first in line to receive to the bill and without a doubt the state should be at the end of line for receiving the bill.

So you agree, rapists should rape poor women? Keeping government small and taxation low is more important than justice.

Never mind that there are millions of surplus dollars in the Texas system that could pay for rape kits, aka EVIDENCE.

From TFA:

Texas State Comptroller's office figures show the fund has tens of millions of dollars left over at the end of each year. In September 2006, the balance was $67,058,646 and one year later, the balance was $57,669,432. In 2008, that figure was up again to $66,572,261 that was left unspent in the fund.

You two are terrible men. I feel like I should become religious, if only to damn you.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: cubby1223
^^^

You know what? Life ain't fair. We *all* have our own set of injustices that don't get paid for by the government. Deal with it.

Self reliance is a wonderful thing that liberals have destroyed.

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
so if someone gets shot by a gun, hit by a car, or are poisoned they shouldn't have to pay the bill to have their life saved if they don't know who did it? Who do you suggest pays? I sure as hell don't want my tax money going to that stuff, I have insurance for a reason.

Do you know what a rape kit is? It's a test to gather evidence about the crime, not medical care. Billing victims for rape kits is a pay-for-play judicial system. It is morally indefensible.

But it is still a service that I would assume is provided by doctors. They have to bill someone for the service. I dont think the state should be first in line to receive such bills. I have little problem with insurance and the investigating authority being in first in line to receive to the bill and without a doubt the state should be at the end of line for receiving the bill.

So you agree, rapists should rape poor women? Keeping government small and taxation low is more important than justice.

Never mind that there are millions of surplus dollars in the Texas system that could pay for rape kits, aka EVIDENCE.

From TFA:

Texas State Comptroller's office figures show the fund has tens of millions of dollars left over at the end of each year. In September 2006, the balance was $67,058,646 and one year later, the balance was $57,669,432. In 2008, that figure was up again to $66,572,261 that was left unspent in the fund.

You two are terrible men. I feel like I should become religious, if only to damn you.

Trying reading next time. I stated that the state/government should be the last one to receive the bill. The perp should be the one paying the bill.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
^^^

You know what? Life ain't fair. We *all* have our own set of injustices that don't get paid for by the government. Deal with it.

Self reliance is a wonderful thing that liberals have destroyed.

so next time you get robbed/beaten/whatever and the cops are called for the crime they should bill you for anything done?


a victim of a crime should not be paying to have the investigation done.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

No, sadly, it's not a "BS" stat. To be more accurate I should have said 1/4 to 1/3, but I've seen studies where the number is near 50%. It depends on the population being studied, women in the military tend to have even higher rates than civilians. As I mentioned above, I spent my entire last semester writing three research papers on the subject of female college rape victims.

The vast majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes, typically involving alcohol or drugs, and typically occurring during the first two years of college (Freshman are by far at highest risk). I also helped to create and conduct a study for my advanced research class that had similar findings.

The "hook up" culture has made it much worse. Women go out, get absolutely wasted, and wake up in someone else's room with no idea how they got there. Legal Consent cannot be obtained while you are inebriated, and such a situation meets the legal definition of rape.

Oh, and since it'll come up sooner or later, my name is Carmen, but I'm male.

i've had sex that i don't remember, was i raped?


*i'm a dude

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
The 1/4 to 1/2 is a complete BS stat of course, but that's besides the point.

I agree that the policy of billing a victim for a rape kit is morally indefensible. Someone in TX needs to fix it, stat.

So lets look at this a differrent way....
If somebody beats the snot out of you and breaks an arm and a leg........and it was not your fault at all...should the hospital bill you for services rendered even though it was not your fault......hmnmmm

is that part of a criminal investigation?