texas holdem - why do I suck so bad at this game?

[Special K]

Originally posted by: bananapeel42
All of this is good advice. I have played about 1.5 million hands in various cash games online at Partypoker, Fulltilt, and Pokerstars.


The main issue being is that no matter how much advice you get here, you're going to suck ass and keep losing until you take some of the strategy you read about and put it to practice.

There is NOTHING better than experience when it comes to poker. Also, what you must learn is that your style may very from the next guy by a good bit so don't try and copy anyone as what works for him may not work for you.


Anyway, get off the forum, deposit into Pokerstars if you can afford it, play small stakes and learn.

How well does skill in playing online translate to skill in playing in real games? Can I gain experience by playing on free poker sites, or does the lack of real money being at stake affect the game too much?

 

[amoeba]

Online play translates fine to live games. In fact, online games are usually much harder to win at than live of the same stakes.

A winner of .25/.50 NLHE stakes online can be a winner in almost all $1/$2 and some $2/$5 games in Vegas.

With regards to your own homegame, I have no idea but most live players in casinos are just terrible and commit very basic pot odds and betting mistakes that mitigates whatever disadvantage you have from brick and mortar poker inexperience.

 

[amoeba]

I would recommend Theory of Poker by Sklansky even though its not mostly NLHE, the advice in that book is invaluable. A beginner book to NLHE might be No limit Holdem by Ed Miller.

 

[V00DOO]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: V00DOO
Go read a couple of Poker books. It'll give you the basic strategy especially the starting hands, posittion, and pot odds.

Which ones are good for a beginner? I just finished Texas Holdem for Dummies, but it didn't seem to really address many of the issues presented in my OP. For example, it doesn't really tell you how much to bet under what circumstances.

Doyle Brunson Super System 2, David Sklansky: Hold'em Poker and Hold'em for Advanced Players, and all of Dan Harrington books on Hold'em. No book can tell you exactly how much to bet because of the complication of holdem: How many players in the hand, what's you chips stack, What's your opponents chips stack, your position, the community cards, etc. Normally I would bet 50% to 100% of the pot size if I feel I have the best hand. Learn the basic strategies and your game will eventually improve with more playing.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: V00DOO

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: V00DOO
Go read a couple of Poker books. It'll give you the basic strategy especially the starting hands, posittion, and pot odds.

Which ones are good for a beginner? I just finished Texas Holdem for Dummies, but it didn't seem to really address many of the issues presented in my OP. For example, it doesn't really tell you how much to bet under what circumstances.

Doyle Brunson Super System 2, David Sklansky: Hold'em Poker and Hold'em for Advanced Players, and all of Dan Harrington books on Hold'em. No book can tell you exactly how much to bet because of the complication of holdem: How many players in the hand, what's you chips stack, What's your opponents chips stack, your position, the community cards, etc. Normally I would bet 50% to 100% of the pot size if I feel I have the best hand. Learn the basic strategies and your game will eventually improve with more playing.

Texas Holdem For Dummies didn't even give general betting guidelines though, as you just did above. Do the books you list talk about guidelines for betting?

I think I'm going to return the Dummies book and pick up one of the others mentioned in this thread.

 

[thereaderrabbit]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: thereaderrabbit

Originally posted by: Special K
I've been playing no-limit holdem with a group of friends for several months now. Typically there are 5-7 players in the game. I just learned how to play the game last February, and have been getting my ass kicked ever since. We play once a week and I have only had two winning nights since the beginning of May. On those nights, I only made $3-$4. The buyin is always $10, although we allow an unlimited number of re-buys. The blinds are $0.10/$0.20. I don't expect poker to be profitable in the long run, but something is clearly wrong with my strategy if I have been losing this many games.


There are several points about the game that confuse me and I believe they are the source of my problems:

1. I don't know what hands I am supposed to play. I understand that position matters, and being in an earlier position generally requires a stronger hand, but what limits should I set for what is considered playable? One guide I read suggested to only play a pair of 10's and higher. I have tried this strategy before and end up seeing perhaps 3-4 flops in 3 hours of playing, and my stack gets reduced from $10 down to $3 just from paying the blinds.

2. When I am dealt a decent hand, such as pocket kings or aces, I have no idea whether I should bet pre-flop or not, and if so, how much I am supposed to bet. The same goes for future betting rounds. How do I know what a good amount to bet is?

3. As the game progresses, how am I supposed to know whether to check, raise, or fold? Do I want to bet aggressively and try to force the other players out, or do I want to make small bets and/or check in order to get as much money in the pot as possible?

4. How much do tells really matter, and how am I supposed to interpret tells correctly if I never end up seeing what cards the person actually had?

5. I understand pot odds matter, and one rule of thumb I have heard is that if the pot odds you get by calling a bet exceed your estimated odds of making your hand, then you should call. However, what if the hand you are trying to make isn't the best possible hand that could be made? How do I estimate the odds of someone hitting a higher hand than what I am going for?


Basically, I end up folding nearly every hand I am dealt, and lose most of my money to the blinds. In the rare occasion that I do get a decent hand, everyone always folds and I end up taking just the blinds. I have tried an occasional bluff pre-flop, and sometimes I am able to steal the blinds that way. However, this strategy doesn't always work. Sometimes 1 or more players will call me. Usually the flop doesn't end up helping me in these cases, and I have to fold.

There are lots of ways to go about playing no-limit hold'em, but they depend on the cards you're being dealt that night, the people you are up against, knowing your odds, staying sharp, and being able to use and adjust a strategy. That's a lot to do.

I'd start with learning how good hands are and what are the likely hood of them improving against a competitor. Getting a simple electronic game will help you get started. Play the game until you consistently break even. This will also teach you some of the basics of how to bet and over time will teach you the difference between good and great hands (you should make some effort to play both).

The next challenge is learning to understand the people you're playing against. It's not a big deal to not be winning off the bat. Take your time and slowly enter the game while waiting for good cards and while developing an understanding of how the people at your table are going about their games. Learn to spot the uncontrolled better, the baiter, and the weaker players. People you can't place as one of these three are your top threats.

As time goes on most good players loose their discipline and become uncontrolled betters. If you stay focused on the odds and your understanding of how well they go about paying their antes, you can beat them at this point while using good and/or better hands.

I didn't cover bluffing. I like to bluff, but do it at an absolute minimum. Simply put, as your average player becomes worn out they become uncontrolled betters who will challenge your bluffs on their way out of the game. Wait these players out with good fundamentals (playing somewhat conservative cards). Bluffs are for when you have broken the will of a player who is up against you while still having something to loose or when you are going up against a good player when you have a clear understanding of their mindset. If you want to bluff, take your time during the first half of the game learning what makes people tick and finding out how to get into their heads. But still, rarely are nights won by incredible hands or wild bluffs (like in the movies).

As far as tells go, I've found them to be rare. If you want to have fun make up an occasional tell for yourself, but if you want to work you'll have to hurt yourself occasionally or put on a good show, but be warned most people are bad actors (this includes you). I've found it's more important to know a persons play style and strengths rather than a potential tell (so be sure to focus on the right things).

As said before don't let your self loose discipline. This includes getting warn down and making stupid mistakes, but also letting people get the better of you. Confidence in a good hand and your understanding of the other players is key. You will get knocked around, but be sure to not loose your cool.

Okay, that's more than enough. Best of luck,

-Reader

PS. there are a few specific strategies for keeping people guessing as to how you play and shaking other players confidence, but I do not want to talk personal secrets when you'll develop them on your own.

How do you know how much money to bet in any particular situation?

Also, how well will playing for free online help my cash games that I play face to face?

Even on a simple hand held poker game you can learn the basics of betting, as most of them allow you to place bets and do raises. The nice thing about a tool like this is you get a number of hands in quickly to obtain a quick evaluation. Strategies on betting get more complex when going around a larger table, and you can pick up pointers for that from from playing against opponents (real or computerized) or from books.

I never said anything in my previous post about playing for 'free online'. Based on what I've heard, you pay for what you get with free poker on-line. You'll learn more from the crowd that you pay to play against, but I will not recommend going on-line for something like this (something that could turn into an expensive friendless addiction).

To get better at playing face to face it's important to have a strong grasp on the fundamentals, have endurance and confidence. Once you have these things going for you, you next focus on getting as much experience as possible. Books and videos might help, but here is no substitute for experience, but looking for more play time without the right skills is a poor use of your time and money.

 

[amoeba]

If you are going to practice online, don't practice with free online play as its a waste of time and you will pick up bad habits.

There must be something at stake in order for you to learn as people play wildly different when there is money on the line, even miniscule amounts.

 

[bananapeel42]

Above posters are correct. However playing free games will almost be wasting your time as it is nothing like a true money game.


Also, playing a .25/50 NL game may seem small, but when you buy in for 50 dollars and play 4 tables or more you can actually make good money playing small stakes.

Even at .10/.25 NL games online (25 dollar buy in) you're going to find some very tough competition and more than likely lose a good bit so I'd start there as you'll find some good players and not be risking too much.

I play at some local Indian casino's and it is definitely easier to win at 2/5 where I buy in for 500 because you have people not just coming to make money there.


The one thing I always suggest is watching out for sharks, and learning to point out good players quickly, as you are only as good as the players around you. If you're at a table full of sharks get the fuck up and leave as it's pointless to play unless you just want the "challenge."


There is a reason people teach courses on poker and have camps, classes, etc. due to the fact that you can spend countless hours playing, teaching, and learning and still have more to learn.

 

[amoeba]

Honestly even .10/.25 online is too high of a stake for OP. Notice in his initial post he says he plays with $10 buy ins and .1/.2 blinds.

with 50 big blind stacks, its a rather shorter stacked game so you are trying to put more money in on earlier streets such as the flop and preflop. So look for premium hands and put money in when you have them.

 

[udneekgnim]

you can watch WSOP on YouTube (the whole 2007 main event is on it) or you can watch High Stakes Poker on YouTube

there might be WPT clips on YouTube too. I'd even recommend watching videos of Potripper (cheater who could see other's people hole cards in online poker) on YouTube just because it allows you to see what other people play and how they play it (ignore what Potripper does)

you need to keep in mind though that tournament hold'em and cash game hold'em are very different beasts. cash game HE is a lot of getting / hitting monsters and getting the most out of it. tournament HE is more about managing the chip stack and playing steady because one bad move can end your tournament.

and in my opinion, cash game HE is a whole lot hard to play than tournament HE.

 

[PokerGuy]

As far as playing online to gain experience: yes, you can get some more experience with the mechanics of the game, but it's not a good teacher for learning the nuances of the game. For one thing, when you play online (especially in small stakes), you're facing a clock that forces everyone to move within only a few seconds. That's not a good way to approach the game. In a real game (cash or tournament), you'll want to make sure that you think your actions through. That's really the number one mistake I see people make when playing -- they make a quick decision based on "gut feel" or a quick back-of-the-envelope odds calculation. Instead, think through the situation. What happened? What did the other player do, and why? What are the most likely explanations for the steps taken? etc etc.

Nobody can answer the "how much to bet" question, the right answer is always "it depends". As a general rule, (pre flop), I tend to raise 3 to 5 times the big blind, depending on what I want to accomplish. For example, if I'm holding AA, I might raise a little less than usual -- push out the rifraff, but you still want some action. If I'm holding 10/10, I'd bet more -- I feel comfortable that unless I'm going up against a big pair, I'm at least a 50-50 if I need to go all-in, yet I don't want to allow too many people in the hand since someone is bound to hit a JQKA.

Of course a lot of that expertise is worthless when you play for fun with your buddies drinking beer, they are not out to win, they are out to have a good time. That changes the dynamic considerably. In that scenario, you don't need to do nearly as much analysis, I'd be in a lot more pots (limping in) than I would playing against "real" players.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
As far as playing online to gain experience: yes, you can get some more experience with the mechanics of the game, but it's not a good teacher for learning the nuances of the game. For one thing, when you play online (especially in small stakes), you're facing a clock that forces everyone to move within only a few seconds. That's not a good way to approach the game. In a real game (cash or tournament), you'll want to make sure that you think your actions through. That's really the number one mistake I see people make when playing -- they make a quick decision based on "gut feel" or a quick back-of-the-envelope odds calculation. Instead, think through the situation. What happened? What did the other player do, and why? What are the most likely explanations for the steps taken? etc etc.

Nobody can answer the "how much to bet" question, the right answer is always "it depends". As a general rule, (pre flop), I tend to raise 3 to 5 times the big blind, depending on what I want to accomplish. For example, if I'm holding AA, I might raise a little less than usual -- push out the rifraff, but you still want some action. If I'm holding 10/10, I'd bet more -- I feel comfortable that unless I'm going up against a big pair, I'm at least a 50-50 if I need to go all-in, yet I don't want to allow too many people in the hand since someone is bound to hit a JQKA.

Of course a lot of that expertise is worthless when you play for fun with your buddies drinking beer, they are not out to win, they are out to have a good time. That changes the dynamic considerably. In that scenario, you don't need to do nearly as much analysis, I'd be in a lot more pots (limping in) than I would playing against "real" players.

I'd say the games against my friends are semi-serious. People aren't focused like a laser on the game, but they most certainly are analyzing each other, calculating pot odds, etc.

One concern I have about the betting is that I will burn through my entire chip stack in a few minutes. If I start betting 3x-5x the big blind each time, then it won't take long for my chip stack to be exhausted. On the other hand, I already know what happens when I don't play any hands - I get slowly taken down to 0 by the blinds. I could bet small, such as 1x the big blind, but I'm not sure that's ever going to be enough to scare anyone out.

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: Special K

I'd say the games against my friends are semi-serious. People aren't focused like a laser on the game, but they most certainly are analyzing each other, calculating pot odds, etc.

One concern I have about the betting is that I will burn through my entire chip stack in a few minutes. If I start betting 3x-5x the big blind each time, then it won't take long for my chip stack to be exhausted. On the other hand, I already know what happens when I don't play any hands - I get slowly taken down to 0 by the blinds. I could bet small, such as 1x the big blind, but I'm not sure that's ever going to be enough to scare anyone out.

Betting 3 to 5 times the big blind won't "burn through your stack" any quicker if you do it when you're supposed to. I'm not saying go out and bet a bunch on crazy hands. In each hand, you have to evaluate the situation, figure out what your goal is and bet accordingly. Sometimes you want to trap. Sometimes you want to push everone out. When it's your turn to act, betting 3x the big blind basically just says "I have a decent/good hand, it's going to cost a little more to play" to the other players. If you have a small pair in the hole, it's often better to just limp in without raising to see if you can catch a set.

That's why I say that there's no "right way" to do it, it all depends. Reading some of the better books helps you by giving you a framework for how to analyze the situation and take action. No book is going to tell you specifically what to do. Experience helps you fill in the gaps. Also, reading "tells" and such is very much overrated. Instead of a tell (like "hey, he itches his ear when he has a strong hand!"), your best results are going to come from observing betting patterns and observing players when they don't know you're observing them. When they know you're watching (like when they are in a big hand and need to make a big decision), players put on an act (intentionally or not). When they are not aware that they're being observed, players give you all sorts of information that could be useful. The best book on tells is "Mike Caro's Book Of Tells", it's informative and very well done.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
As far as playing online to gain experience: yes, you can get some more experience with the mechanics of the game, but it's not a good teacher for learning the nuances of the game. For one thing, when you play online (especially in small stakes), you're facing a clock that forces everyone to move within only a few seconds. That's not a good way to approach the game. In a real game (cash or tournament), you'll want to make sure that you think your actions through. That's really the number one mistake I see people make when playing -- they make a quick decision based on "gut feel" or a quick back-of-the-envelope odds calculation. Instead, think through the situation. What happened? What did the other player do, and why? What are the most likely explanations for the steps taken? etc etc.

Nobody can answer the "how much to bet" question, the right answer is always "it depends". As a general rule, (pre flop), I tend to raise 3 to 5 times the big blind, depending on what I want to accomplish. For example, if I'm holding AA, I might raise a little less than usual -- push out the rifraff, but you still want some action. If I'm holding 10/10, I'd bet more -- I feel comfortable that unless I'm going up against a big pair, I'm at least a 50-50 if I need to go all-in, yet I don't want to allow too many people in the hand since someone is bound to hit a JQKA.

Of course a lot of that expertise is worthless when you play for fun with your buddies drinking beer, they are not out to win, they are out to have a good time. That changes the dynamic considerably. In that scenario, you don't need to do nearly as much analysis, I'd be in a lot more pots (limping in) than I would playing against "real" players.

I'd say the games against my friends are semi-serious. People aren't focused like a laser on the game, but they most certainly are analyzing each other, calculating pot odds, etc.

One concern I have about the betting is that I will burn through my entire chip stack in a few minutes. If I start betting 3x-5x the big blind each time, then it won't take long for my chip stack to be exhausted. On the other hand, I already know what happens when I don't play any hands - I get slowly taken down to 0 by the blinds. I could bet small, such as 1x the big blind, but I'm not sure that's ever going to be enough to scare anyone out.

You bet/raise for three reasons:
1) Because you think you have the best hand and you want everyone else to pay to see more cards.
2) To get information about your opponents. If you check or call, you've learned little to nothing.
3) To feign strength to try and win the pot outright.

If you raise too much then you will drain your stack too quickly.

If you don't raise enough, then you will be slowly drained because you won't win enough when you should. One of sklansky's book opens by saying something to the effect:

"The number of hands you win in poker is irrelevant. It is the amount of money you win."

Your goal isn't to win hands, it is to win as much money as possible on each hand you win and to minimize how much you lose to realize you aren't going to win the hand.

 

[TCPpacket]

it's time to move up in limits where they respect your raises =)