Tesla SuperCharger

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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So what do people think in "The Garage" think about Tesla's recent announcement of the "Tesla SuperCharger"? I for one think it is very interesting and shows how Tesla is thinking long term. That you can add about 150-160 miles to a electrical vehicles range in about 30mins is great. Also that it is free to Tesla's owners is also good. You can drive from LA to San Francisco in a Model S without issue now. Or even drive to Lake Tahoe.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2012/1209_tesla_supercharger_an_in_depth_look/
 

RichieZ

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2000
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its pretty cool, but I canceled my reservation last week. just bought a condo and its not clear if I can install a charger, even though a law was passed saying the HOA can't stop you.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Because, as we all know, fast-charging batteries is the key to making them last a long time...

As stop-gap measures go, it's not bad. But at a 90kw charge rate, it's using 45kwh which is more than an entire house uses in the average day and it's using that in 30 minutes. They're not feasible in any sort of large numbers. Also, think of throughput. The average gas station can serve 8 cars every 5-10 minutes. According to the article, the "SuperCharger" stations can serve 2 cars every 30 minutes. While there are ports for up to 4 cars, plugging in more than two cars means that the last cars in get a much slower charge rate.

While it's better than waiting 3-4 hours, it's still objectively pretty crappy. They're doing the best they can, but batteries are just not a good "fuel tank." Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles can be fueled in 5 minutes and get 240 miles of range with that (numbers from the Honda FCX Clarity).

ZV
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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Because, as we all know, fast-charging batteries is the key to making them last a long time...

As stop-gap measures go, it's not bad. But at a 90kw charge rate, it's using 45kwh which is more than an entire house uses in the average day and it's using that in 30 minutes. They're not feasible in any sort of large numbers. Also, think of throughput. The average gas station can serve 8 cars every 5-10 minutes. According to the article, the "SuperCharger" stations can serve 2 cars every 30 minutes. While there are ports for up to 4 cars, plugging in more than two cars means that the last cars in get a much slower charge rate.

While it's better than waiting 3-4 hours, it's still objectively pretty crappy. They're doing the best they can, but batteries are just not a good "fuel tank." Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles can be fueled in 5 minutes and get 240 miles of range with that (numbers from the Honda FCX Clarity).

ZV

They are doing the best they can. However the SuperCharger stations are free to use and right now they can only be used with the Model S. Tesla does indicate that the supercharger doesn't affect the battery life. However I would like to see some long term use of these super charging stations. It is a interesting concept and the one thing about Tesla they are trying to address the problem of driving long distances with a electric car. Would you be willing to drive from say LA to Lake Tahoe knowing that charging would add another 1 1/2 to your drive? However the charging would be free. Also does Elon Musk bet on losing concepts? He didn't become a multi-billionaire by betting on losing concepts. Also Tesla must think they are feasible in large numbers because of the next several years they are going to be putting these all across the nation. They are also going to have these systems setup with a Grid Tie PV system so the PV system will put more into the grid than what the cars take out in electricity.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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James May hit the nail on the head.
“Batteries.. batteries are rubbish in everything. Think of all the things you’ve got at the moment that are battery powered – like torches and mobile phones and digital cameras and laptops. I bet you, they’re all either completely flat or going flat very quickly.”
 

Ferzerp

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,438
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They are doing the best they can.

I'll never understand this sentiment. Is it a product of our trophy for participation society? Sometimes (or most of the time) someone's or an organization's best just isn't enough. The nature of it being "their best" doesn't really enter in to the value of the final result.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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James May hit the nail on the head.
“Batteries.. batteries are rubbish in everything. Think of all the things you’ve got at the moment that are battery powered – like torches and mobile phones and digital cameras and laptops. I bet you, they’re all either completely flat or going flat very quickly.”

It all depends on how you manage the battery and what the battery is made to do. Digital Cameras, laptops, mobile phones etc are all items that have short lives. Cell phones are usually replaced every 2-years why would somebody invest in a advanced battery for them? These items are relatively disposable because tech has such a short life cycle. However standard car batteries properly taken care of can last 5-6 years. Pacemaker batteries can go for over 10 years. The Opportunity rover batteries on Mars have been going for over 8 years. It all depends on how you build and how the battery is maintained. The standard battery warranty on a Tesla is 8-years. The top gear UK guys have already shown that they have a very specific anti-electric car battery agenda already so I don't listen to them much in this area.
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
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James May hit the nail on the head.
“Batteries.. batteries are rubbish in everything. Think of all the things you’ve got at the moment that are battery powered – like torches and mobile phones and digital cameras and laptops. I bet you, they’re all either completely flat or going flat very quickly.”

In reply to this plus maybe some of Zen's comments:

Battery tech is actually getting REALLY good. I've used Li-Ion tools for multiple years. They charge rapidly, and the damn battery can sit for a year on a full charge (literally have observed this...full battery after over a year of sitting).

James May, despites his smarts, says as much idiotic shit as Clarkson, really. I'm a 'Hammond guy' because I respect that he rarely speaks about what he doesn't know, at least not with any seriousness.

Phone, camera, and laptop batteries can all last years. They're mostly hampered by improper care and cheap design/manufacture (even if they are the current 'top tech'). Not to mention that poor management by the devices they power is not uncommon.

I think this is a good idea for Tesla. They have the perfect platform for it- a shitpile of small lithium cells. They're using the best battery 'style,' for one...the rapid charge (and discharge) would be much more of an issue with lead acid or NiCad batteries. Even the current NimH's (Prius is NimH, right?) are going to be inferior and, according to all research I've read, should not last as long as the Lithium stuff. I don't know why this doesn't always seem to be backed up by real world experiences, though.

But the BIG thing is the insane number of cells (six thousand something, right?) that the Tesla uses. Since each cell has less capacity, it takes less time to recharge. So if you can recharge them all at the same time, a non-abusive quick-charge SHOULD be possible.

Didn't some grad students or something design a vehicle that was powered by a giant pile of makita batteries or something? I'm fuzzy on that, I just remember thinking 'lol drill batteries, you guys are fuckin' dumb...'

...Now I'm thinking that might've been genius. The worries about having to replace a super-expensive, 100lb+ batteries would be gone if you could just plug in individual cells. Right now we have tech that is akin to replacing an entire engine just because one part went out (yeah, I know, engine = motor, batteries = gas, but stay with me, here). Electric motors are not THAT expensive (in a relative sense) and can have very low failure rates, if properly designed. It's the battery that that driver needs to keep 'tuned up.'

edit: oh, and keep in mind that ideally, a standard lead acid car battery (12v) is meant to be kept at a high state of charge. That's why it lasts. Even with a few complete drains, a few rapid charges, ect; it's nothing like what just normal driving will do to a battery in a 'pure' electric. Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I just wanted to point that out...there are a lot of good ideas out there, many of them based in stuff that we have known for a LONG time, that is for some reason no being applied these current electrics.

The Prius, for all the hate I have for it, is doing the right thing with its battery...it never runs it dead. The computer tries to keep it in that 'butter zone' where constant charging and discharging is less detrimental to it (i.e. no overcharging and nowhere close to total discharge).
 
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phucheneh

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Jun 30, 2012
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While it's better than waiting 3-4 hours, it's still objectively pretty crappy. They're doing the best they can, but batteries are just not a good "fuel tank." Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles can be fueled in 5 minutes and get 240 miles of range with that (numbers from the Honda FCX Clarity).

ZV

I know I'm bad about thinking about one topic and rambling, but this warranted another comment/question...what's the current state of fuel cell tech?

Last I knew, the expense was quite extreme. What was the Honda fuel cell car selling for? Like 150k or some crazy shit? What is it that causes those production costs? Difficulty/complicated nature of manufacture? Rare/expensive materials? I honestly don't know; I'm just thinking about how I've heard NOTHING about the tech becoming more econically viable. It seems to have gone the way of the turbine car...

...man, that one really was a good frickin' idea. Chrysler didn't have the technology to make it work in the 60's. Volvo didn't pursue it far enough in the 90's...and...I think that's about all that's been done.

It could still work well as a primary propulsion device; but as a generator, it seems PERFECT. Better than the small diesels...that they're also not using.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,699
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Not perfect, not entirely practical, not good enough to convert all vehicles to Electric Only, but Progress nonetheless.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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It all depends on how you manage the battery and what the battery is made to do. Digital Cameras, laptops, mobile phones etc are all items that have short lives. Cell phones are usually replaced every 2-years why would somebody invest in a advanced battery for them? These items are relatively disposable because tech has such a short life cycle. However standard car batteries properly taken care of can last 5-6 years. Pacemaker batteries can go for over 10 years. The Opportunity rover batteries on Mars have been going for over 8 years. It all depends on how you build and how the battery is maintained. The standard battery warranty on a Tesla is 8-years. The top gear UK guys have already shown that they have a very specific anti-electric car battery agenda already so I don't listen to them much in this area.

Standard car batteries are lead-acid and have an absolutely horrific energy density. They absolutely suck for use as a power source for an electric car, and there's a reason why absolutely zero manufacturers use them for that purpose.

Pacemaker batteries last for a long time because a pacemaker is a very low-drain device which makes it relatively easy to design a reasonably sized battery that has a low-enough self-discharge rate to last a decade. If you've ever seen a pacemaker, you'll note that the vast majority of the device is the battery and that's necessary to get a long enough life.

The issue with cell phone batteries (which are essentially the same LiIon technology as the batteries in the Tesla) is that they see a lot of charge/discharge cycles and their charging control is not as good as it could be, partially because of the desire to have them recharge quickly and partially because of the design life issues you mentioned.

All that said, none of this is relevant to my criticism of the Tesla SuperCharger in any way, shape, or form.

My criticism is that fast charging shortens battery life. That's a fact and there's no way around it (regardless of what Tesla's marketing department has to say).

My criticism is that 30 minutes is still too long.

My criticism is that fast-charging a car for 30 minutes uses more power than my entire 5-bedroom house uses in 24 hours. The electrical grid can't handle that on any sort of large scale; it's just not sustainable.

My criticism is that the charging stations can only handle 2 cars at once at the fast-charge rate.

Is this an improvement? Sure. Does it still leave the Tesla far less convenient for extended trips than a conventional car? Yes. Even if we postulate a nationwide network of these stations it's not even close to the convenience of gasoline's 5-minute re-fuel for a 300-400 mile range.

Do I think that this makes the Tesla slightly more viable? Yes. Do I think any of this is even a sliver of indication that batteries are the right way to go for EVs? Not for even a single unit of Planck time.

In response to what's going on with fuel cells, there is rapid development in the field.

Daimler has a small fleet of fuel cell buses that have just had a successful 3-year trial (operating and maintenance costs 40% less than diesel buses), San Francisco and Oakland are in the process of deploying their own fuel cell buses, and Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Mazda, Fiat, Audi, VW, Mercedes, and BMW are all aggressively pursuing fuel cell technology (Mercedes will have a fuel cell vehicle in volume production in 2014).

The main reason that we don't hear too much about fuel cell vehicles is because the research is being done by established companies that don't need to keep making headlines to keep people interested.

Yes, fuel cells are still more expensive than batteries and they will be for some time. But I still see batteries as, at most, a stop-gap measure until fuel cells are ready for prime time. I just cannot see batteries as the long-term "fuel tank" for electric vehicles.

ZV
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,260
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I know I'm bad about thinking about one topic and rambling, but this warranted another comment/question...what's the current state of fuel cell tech?

Last I knew, the expense was quite extreme. What was the Honda fuel cell car selling for? Like 150k or some crazy shit? What is it that causes those production costs? Difficulty/complicated nature of manufacture? Rare/expensive materials? I honestly don't know; I'm just thinking about how I've heard NOTHING about the tech becoming more econically viable. It seems to have gone the way of the turbine car...

...man, that one really was a good frickin' idea. Chrysler didn't have the technology to make it work in the 60's. Volvo didn't pursue it far enough in the 90's...and...I think that's about all that's been done.

It could still work well as a primary propulsion device; but as a generator, it seems PERFECT. Better than the small diesels...that they're also not using.

Fuel Cell cars always seem to be about 5-10 years away from being practical.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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All noted.

However as of right now Tesla has a waiting list of 13,000+ people for the Model S currently. So they must be doing something right.

Also I disagree about the grid. I don't think you realize the difference in power draws between commercial and residential power. Drawing 100Kw from a commercial power source isn't really that big of deal. As far as charging two cars at once. They are not going to build a charging station that can charge 20 cars at once. Why the demand isn't there. If more cars get on the road and charging stations start becoming backed up I am sure that Tesla will adjust. Right now these charging stations can only charge Tesla Model S cars.

Eleon Musk has bet big on EV vehicles, really big to the tune of 70 Million dollars and a good chunk of his pay pal money. He is a very successful entrepreneur. Another one of his companies (Space X) builds space vehicles and rockets. So far the other auto companies are all talking a lot but not a lot of action. Tesla is taking action. There will always be the na-sayers, but so far both Tesla and Space X are executing. We can all throw stones all we want but Eleon Musk has taken $180 Million from selling PayPal and built two companies that employ thousands of peoples and both of these companies are trying to break into a tough business. Building a brand new US Auto Company is really tough. We have the big 3 auto companies in the US. At some point there could be a 4th. I am really interested to see what happens over the next couple of years in the innovation from Tesla.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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All noted.

However as of right now Tesla has a waiting list of 13,000+ people for the Model S currently. So they must be doing something right.

Again, I never said their cars were bad. I said that I don't see battery-powered electric vehicles as the long-term answer. You seem intent on disputing things I've never said.

Regardless, there are a couple of things about your wait list comment that I'll address.

(1) I've not seen a "13,000 person" number. I've seen "10,000+" and "10-12 months." Even assuming that 13,000 is a 12-month delay, whoop-de-friggin-do. Acura sells ~15,000 cars every month. And Acura isn't exactly moving large numbers of vehicles.

(2) Even if we take 13,000 orders as a large number, the fact that they can sell a bunch now doesn't mean that battery electrics are the future in any long-term sense. Steam and battery electrics both outsold gasoline-powered cars during the early stages of the automobile. This doesn't actually have any relevance to my position that battery electrics will not be the long-term solution.

Also I disagree about the grid. I don't think you realize the difference in power draws between commercial and residential power. Drawing 100Kw from a commercial power source isn't really that big of deal. As far as charging two cars at once. They are not going to build a charging station that can charge 20 cars at once. Why the demand isn't there. If more cars get on the road and charging stations start becoming backed up I am sure that Tesla will adjust. Right now these charging stations can only charge Tesla Model S cars.

Drawing 100kw from a commercial hook-up isn't a problem in isolation. The problem is that it's not sustainable if you extend it to cover all cars on the road. Just playing with numbers here, if the average gas station serves 35 cars a day, that's a sudden additional draw on the overall grid of 1,575 kwh per station per day on the grid. Multiplying that out by all gas stations is a problem, especially when states are already having rolling blackouts because the overall power grid is overloaded.

The only reason the Tesla stations can work is because there are so few cars on the road. Expanding the model to universality just isn't possible without massive upgrades to the overall power grid.

Eleon Musk has bet big on EV vehicles, really big to the tune of 70 Million dollars and a good chunk of his pay pal money. He is a very successful entrepreneur. Another one of his companies (Space X) builds space vehicles and rockets. So far the other auto companies are all talking a lot but not a lot of action. Tesla is taking action. There will always be the na-sayers, but so far both Tesla and Space X are executing. We can all throw stones all we want but Eleon Musk has taken $180 Million from selling PayPal and built two companies that employ thousands of peoples and both of these companies are trying to break into a tough business. Building a brand new US Auto Company is really tough. We have the big 3 auto companies in the US. At some point there could be a 4th. I am really interested to see what happens over the next couple of years in the innovation from Tesla.

So far most of Tesla's corporate profits are from licensing their battery technology and from selling LEV credits to other companies, not from the cars. There are huge reasons to invest in Tesla that have nothing to do with the cars (even when you ignore the fact that there are huge amounts of government money in Tesla which can sweeten the pot a LOT for investors). Viewed properly, Tesla is not an auto company. Tesla is a battery company that just happens to produce a few cars as tech showpieces. The vast majority of their income comes from licensing their battery tech to other companies for use in hybrids or other projects aside from battery electric vehicles.

Also, I would like to point out that fuel cell vehicles are EVs. The fuel cell is simply an electricity generator and the cars are driven by electric motors. I would bet on EVs too. I'm just betting on fuel cell electrics, not battery electrics. Battery electric cars are short-term, not long-term.

ZV
 
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LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
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The solar cells on the roofs have nothing to do with charging the cars, they just return some power back to the grid. Presumably on a yearly basis, so little power will be used by the station, that the solar cell bank will return more than that to the grid.

Also, the supercharger stations are only free to those who buy the upscale model cars.

Sounds like a system designed for very few cars.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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I apologize if I was disputing things you never said.

As far as Model S production. In the grand scheme of things compared to other car companies their production is very small. Even if they ramp up to 10-15k cars a year this is still small compared to GM etc.

http://www.insideline.com/tesla/mod...osting-model-s-production-to-meet-demand.html

I could see a future cars have different forms of engines/fuel systems instead of just looking at Gas/Diesel.
The big thing I like about Batteries over Fuel Cell's is the ability to plug in at home after a day and then refill the battery. The Fuel Cell requires a trip to a Hyrdogen fuel station.

The current Tesla super charger system cannot work on a large scale because it would draw to much power. However it works for the scale that Tesla is producing it's cars at. Long term the power grid would need to be updated if we ever had thousands of SuperCharger systems. However until we start seeing this demand the grid probably isn't going to be updated.

I for one am very interested to see where things go. It could be 10 years from now we could have a option of a internal combustion car(using gas or Diesel), a car powered by Natural gas or a EV car using either batteries or a fuel cell.