Tesla slams NYT review of Model S as "Fake"

[mmntech]

First Top Gear, now the NYT.

Tesla Motors chief executive Elon Musk has branded a New York Times review of his company's electric saloon car as "fake".

The former Paypal and Space X founder took to Twitter to defend the Model S after the review said the car ran out of power sooner than expected during a test drive on a cold, winter's day.

"NYTimes article about Tesla range in cold is fake," Mr Musk tweeted.

The NYT defended its article, rebutting Mr Musk's claim as "flatly untrue".

Mr Musk claimed the reviewer did not charge the car fully and "took a long detour".

The NYT reviewer, John Broder, wrote that during the test drive from Washington DC to Connecticut, the power had drained sooner than expected, forcing him to turn down the heating and drive below the speed limit. The car had to be towed to a charging station, he said.

In a statement responding to Mr Musk's tweets, the NYT said Mr Broder's review "was completely factual, describing the trip as it occurred. Any suggestion that the account was 'fake' is, of course, flatly untrue".

The newspaper also said that "there was no unreported detour".

Tesla says the Model S has a range of up to 265 miles (426km) per charge and has sometimes managed more than 300 miles.

Mr Musk also tweeted that Tesla was preparing a blog "detailing what actually happened" and was "lining up other journalists to do the same drive".

The range of electric car batteries is known to shrink sometimes in cold weather, as industry experts have discovered.

This is not the first time Tesla has had a run-in with a media organisation.

Last year it failed in its attempt to sue the BBC's Top Gear having claimed libel and "malicious falsehood" following the TV programme's 2008 review of its Roadster model.

Tesla's share price fell 2% after the NYT article appeared on 8 February, but has risen 23.5% over the last 12 months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21426132

 

[LTC8K6]

Why would it be fake? The range drops precipitously in cold weather, both because the battery doesn't perform as well, and because you have to run the electric heaters.

Hybrids get worse mileage in the cold as well. Because the battery doesn't perform as well, and because the engine has to run more often to maintain it's temperature.

 

[mmntech]

Tesla's CEO just doesn't like anybody smack talking his cars. They sued Top Gear when the Roadster they tested only went 55 miles on a charge. Tesla claimed Top Gear and the BBC had misrepresented the vehicle. The suit ended up being thrown out of court.

 

[LTC8K6]

There's also the fact that if a Lithium Ion battery gets too low on charge, it's a brick.

 

[Arkaign]

Tesla is ludicrously overrated imho. I'm shocked they've made it this far.

 

[mmntech]

There's also the fact that if a Lithium Ion battery gets too low on charge, it's a brick.

Most electronic speed controllers have that cuts power before the batteries drop below 3.3v per cell.

 

[LTC8K6]

Most electronic speed controllers have that cuts power before the batteries drop below 3.3v per cell.

Except a few Teslas, apparently. :biggrin:

 

[imagoon]

Except a few Teslas, apparently. :biggrin:

If your talking about the dead batteries issue, there is nothing the controller can do if the batteries are not charged after going below shut off. Like all battery tech, the cells continue to self discharge after the controller shuts them down.

Same thing happens to the LiPO RC batteries when people forget to charge them after an afternoon of running.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Gotta keep that stock price up! Can't have people revealing things like facts after all.

 

[Dari]

Why would it be fake? The range drops precipitously in cold weather, both because the battery doesn't perform as well, and because you have to run the electric heaters.

Hybrids get worse mileage in the cold as well. Because the battery doesn't perform as well, and because the engine has to run more often to maintain it's temperature.

Because the reviewer omitted a lot of facts from his review and ignored Tesla's instructions. For example, according to Tesla (which says it has the car logs), he did not do a full range charge and he took detours. These are two things he failed to mention. He also stupidly failed to keep the car plugged in overnight and undercharged the car under the assumption that he would get some of that mileage back as the battery heated up.

I can see these things happening in the real world. However, it's better to be upfront about your intentions if you are going to do these things instead of omitting them. By omitting them he sets himself up for situations like this where his credibility is questioned.

 

[LTC8K6]

If your talking about the dead batteries issue, there is nothing the controller can do if the batteries are not charged after going below shut off. Like all battery tech, the cells continue to self discharge after the controller shuts them down.

Same thing happens to the LiPO RC batteries when people forget to charge them after an afternoon of running.

My recollection is that the batteries did not self discharge, but were discharged by systems on the car that did not shut down to preserve the battery.

 

[LTC8K6]

Because the reviewer omitted a lot of facts from his review and ignored Tesla's instructions. For example, according to Tesla (which says it has the car logs), he did not do a full range charge and he took detours. These are two things he failed to mention. He also stupidly failed to keep the car plugged in overnight and undercharged the car under the assumption that he would get some of that mileage back as the battery heated up.

I can see these things happening in the real world. However, it's better to be upfront about your intentions if you are going to do these things instead of omitting them. By omitting them he sets himself up for situations like this where his credibility is questioned.

You are parroting one side of the story. I see no reason to pick a side here.

Nothing has been presented in public to show that the reviewer did anything intentionally. The story itself seems to refute some of Tesla's claims.

That said, anyone who owns a BEV would be foolish to expect more than 2/3 the max range when it's 20F outside in the winter, if that.

These cars are definitely useable, but they are clearly not ready for Prime Time, imo.

 

[gevorg]

"fake" is a pretty bad word to use for damage control

 

[Dari]

You are parroting one side of the story. I see no reason to pick a side here.

Nothing has been presented in public to show that the reviewer did anything intentionally. The story itself seems to refute some of Tesla's claims.

That said, anyone who owns a BEV would be foolish to expect more than 2/3 the max range when it's 20F outside in the winter, if that.

These cars are definitely useable, but they are clearly not ready for Prime Time, imo.

I read the review on Sunday when it first appeared. His actions had me perplexed and with this strong reaction from Tesla, I now understand that his actions were indeed curious.

 

[phucheneh]

This makes their CEO seem like a moron, even if it is 'untrue.'

Quotes because that's the word an intelligent person would use. The article is 'fake'? What, someone took out an ad and tried to make it look like a car review? The article is an illusion? A Chinese knockoff?

No.

'We dispute their findings.' 'Their claims are untrue.'

Those are things someone with common sense would say. And they would follow that up with proper evidence, rather than just acting like a child. He's 'preparing a blog'? Is that a damn joke?

 

[phucheneh]

My recollection is that the batteries did not self discharge, but were discharged by systems on the car that did not shut down to preserve the battery.

All batteries self-discharge. They don't even have to be connected to anything.

...connecting them to something, though, will of course make it happen faster. But it's really not 'self-discharge.' It's discharge across things that do not have a clean break in their circuit when car is off. I.e. there is still some path, however high the resistance, between power and ground. In a properly-functioning car, however, you're talking a fraction of an amp. I wanna say most manufacturers specify somewhere in the 50-100mA range, but it's been a while since I've looked that spec up on anything (key off draws are usually much larger and more obvious, no hair-splitting needed).

 

[Zenmervolt]

Because the reviewer omitted a lot of facts from his review and ignored Tesla's instructions. For example, according to Tesla (which says it has the car logs), he did not do a full range charge and he took detours. These are two things he failed to mention. He also stupidly failed to keep the car plugged in overnight and undercharged the car under the assumption that he would get some of that mileage back as the battery heated up.

I can see these things happening in the real world. However, it's better to be upfront about your intentions if you are going to do these things instead of omitting them. By omitting them he sets himself up for situations like this where his credibility is questioned.

I'm pretty sure that the "detours" he took amount to nothing more than his own normal driving path, avoiding traffic, etc. Tesla are likely claiming that anything other than the absolute shortest-possible route (measured by mileage, not by time) was a "detour." For example, the fastest route from my home to the airport is 35 miles. The shortest route is 30 miles (but it takes 15 minutes longer). I believe that Tesla would characterize my preferred trip (35 miles) is a "detour" compared to their preference for the 30-mile trip.

Similarly, Tesla's claim that the car was not "fully charged" is likely similar to the the charger for my camera batteries or my drill. The charger will display "fully charged" when, in fact, the battery is really only 90% to 95% charged and you need another 30-60 minutes before the battery really is fully charged. I suspect that when Tesla says that the car was "not fully charged" they actually mean that it probably was charged up to 90% or 95% and point to one or two lines in the owner's manual that say to leave the car plugged in for X amount of time after the display says it's done charging to really top it off.

Or perhaps they are referring to his decision to leave with an indicated 185 miles of range for a 160-mile trip. That's not something I really find wrong at all. I've known a lot of people who, when in a hurry, will only put in 5 or 10 gallons of gas if that's all they need to get to their destination. I can't fault him for trusting the car's range guide.

As far as not recharging it overnight, he was at a hotel. What was he going to do, run an extension cord through the lobby, up the stairs, and into his room? Let's not be ridiculous here.

The reviewer used the car like most people use cars. I see no indications of intent to mislead.

ZV

 

[Ryan]

I'm pretty sure that the "detours" he took amount to nothing more than his own normal driving path, avoiding traffic, etc. Tesla are likely claiming that anything other than the absolute shortest-possible route (measured by mileage, not by time) was a "detour." For example, the fastest route from my home to the airport is 35 miles. The shortest route is 30 miles (but it takes 15 minutes longer). I believe that Tesla would characterize my preferred trip (35 miles) is a "detour" compared to their preference for the 30-mile trip.

Similarly, Tesla's claim that the car was not "fully charged" is likely similar to the the charger for my camera batteries or my drill. The charger will display "fully charged" when, in fact, the battery is really only 90% to 95% charged and you need another 30-60 minutes before the battery really is fully charged. I suspect that when Tesla says that the car was "not fully charged" they actually mean that it probably was charged up to 90% or 95% and point to one or two lines in the owner's manual that say to leave the car plugged in for X amount of time after the display says it's done charging to really top it off.

Or perhaps they are referring to his decision to leave with an indicated 185 miles of range for a 160-mile trip. That's not something I really find wrong at all. I've known a lot of people who, when in a hurry, will only put in 5 or 10 gallons of gas if that's all they need to get to their destination. I can't fault him for trusting the car's range guide.

As far as not recharging it overnight, he was at a hotel. What was he going to do, run an extension cord through the lobby, up the stairs, and into his room? Let's not be ridiculous here.

The reviewer used the car like most people use cars. I see no indications of intent to mislead.

ZV

I charge my Volt when I stay at hotels I just look for an exterior plug.....

 

[imagoon]

My recollection is that the batteries did not self discharge, but were discharged by systems on the car that did not shut down to preserve the battery.

The Tesla controller disconnects the battery pack from general car systems at around 5%. Lithium cells in it drop 2-3% a month. Once the car reaches the critical kill mode of 5% it only takes 2 months to zero out the battery destroying it. You also have to work with the fact that anything attached to the battery is a non-infinite resistance which will increase the discharge.

Also the car will send you an email to tell you the car is reaching critical charge.

The bricked electric cars due to running the battery to zero are purely user neglect. Any other battery run device in existence does this. It is the same as running engine oil for 30,000 miles in a gas engine.

http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/22/the-tesla-bricking-story-its-nonsense/

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

The NYT writer is probably a disgruntles Paypal user... /shrug there are many of them.

And Musk sounds like a wuss as well by tweeting negativity. Thats soooo 2012.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I charge my Volt when I stay at hotels I just look for an exterior plug.....

Which are not always available.

ZV

 

[Bateluer]

I am slightly confused by the NYT writer. Why wouldn't you plug in the car to charge overnight, if the outlets are available? Might just be me, but if I was driving an electric vehicle with a limited range on a long road trip, I'd be inclined to plug the sucker in when I was stopped.

 

[phucheneh]

I am slightly confused by the NYT writer. Why wouldn't you plug in the car to charge overnight, if the outlets are available? Might just be me, but if I was driving an electric vehicle with a limited range on a long road trip, I'd be inclined to plug the sucker in when I was stopped.

...does he state outlets were available and he didn't?

I would ask why would he? Part of testing an EV is going to be the range. If you're testing a gas or diesel vehicle on a road trip, and have any concern about mileage, you're probably not gonna arbitrarily add gas at some time, especially without a trip computer. You would have no idea what kinda mileage you're getting beyond a vague guess. Would be okay for a Lambo review, notsomuch for an economy car. (and Re: trip computers...would you really trust it to give you hard data?)

This is sort of bridging the gap- it's supposed to be the 'green' sports car. So of course he's going to want an accurate idea of battery life, rather than just saying 'okay, fuel gauge says half left, I drove x amount of miles...we'll just assume that as the gauge goes through that other 50%, everything will be exactly the same...'

Quite frankly, I wonder if there's not some shens on Tesla's part. Like the non-linear fuel gauges in many cars, their 'remaining battery' estimates might favor the upper portion of the charge, with the mileage going down more and more as you move into the range of charge that they hope you will never be at (since you're probably using it to commute and plugging it in every night). [/conspiracy theory].

 

[SparkyJJO]

I charge my Volt when I stay at hotels I just look for an exterior plug.....

I see a new prank - kids unplugging people's electric cars so they can't go anywhere in the morning. Or snipping the power cord.

 

[waggy]

I am slightly confused by the NYT writer. Why wouldn't you plug in the car to charge overnight, if the outlets are available? Might just be me, but if I was driving an electric vehicle with a limited range on a long road trip, I'd be inclined to plug the sucker in when I was stopped.

why the fuck would you if you are testing the car? i would think you want to know how exactly far you can go.

why would i charge it half way? seems rather silly to me.