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Tesla is launching new Powerwall home batteries in 2016

This is certainly the wave of the future. I fear the issues with rechargeable batteries not lasting more than 4-5 years (cell phones, laptops, etc). Is the current technology for these gonna be viable 10+ years?
 
gururu2 said:
This is certainly the wave of the future. I fear the issues with rechargeable batteries not lasting more than 4-5 years (cell phones, laptops, etc). Is the current technology for these gonna be viable 10+ years?
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Yes, these type of large battery setups are architect-ed differently than your typical cell phone, laptop battery.
 
Nice, I want the rackmount model (not sure if they're out yet). I would use it as a UPS battery. 😀 It probably has more capacity than my big lead acid batteries, and probably a higher life, and no hydrogen to worry about.

Kinda over my budget though. 😛 But something to consider when I decide to upgrade my battery plant. It might end up being more cost efficient per AH.
 
Brovane said:
Yes, these type of large battery setups are architect-ed differently than your typical cell phone, laptop battery.
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Tesla came out of the gate trying to build the best Li-ion battery pack money could buy. They started with active temperature management, and intelligent wear leveling/cell management. The data they collected from Model S owners (tin foil privacy nutters need not apply) has further refined what needs to be done to make the very expensive packs more robust.

As far as I know, there are no cell phones or laptop battery packs with active temperature management, and the same goes for reserve cells, or intelligent management of cell charges. Those toys run at much lower nominal voltages, and prioritize space constraints over longevity of the battery pack.

Not much to say about Powerwall, as I have been following the development, but don't have a use for them yet. Charging them off the grid is asinine, as you are taking a conversion loss twice in the process. I plan to get a variety of alternative energy sources at some point. By then, I will be working on my ideal house, and lots of the loads will be DC anyways, to avoid the inverter penalty.

Hopefully by then, battery tech will be even more refined. I lived somewhere that had a 4.5kW PV array, and his lead-acid battery bank was not very much fun to maintain.
 
Almost a good alternative to a home standby generator.

Almost.

Downside is you can't just dump more gas in the tank during an extended outage.
 
Actually I could see Tesla get into the UPS market. I don't think a Lithium Ion based UPS has ever been made before but if done right it could work pretty well I would think. Thermal management is key with lithium ion batteries though. Otherwise you have server rooms going up in flames. One of the reasons lead acid is still used a lot is that it's a very stable battery tech, you can just let it float and it's happy. Lithium Ion requires a bit more work to keep charged without over charging it.
 
Well, lead acid is happy until it gets old, then those SLA batteries start gassing, swelling, and even cracking and leaking stuff 😛 Had to clean up my one SUA1000 from a split battery that made a mess.
 
lol yeah true I've seen my fair share of bad lead cells too. Mind you the result is a bit less explosive than when lithium ion goes bad. But acid leaks and to potential gasses if it reacts with something are not very fun either.
 
Looks like a solution looking for a problem to me. Large scale conversion loss is only one reason that it looks bad to me.
I have some more modest goals with onsite energy storage. If I had solar I would have a modest bank of some sort, and the whole house would have DC lighting circuits. LED are DC, so you have no conversion losses to speak of. This also takes away the conversion loss of LED lighting coming from the grid. During the day you make your own light, and at night too. In the event of the rare outage, having light is very handy.
This does not require much of a bank considering how efficient LED are.
 
Red Squirrel said:
lol yeah true I've seen my fair share of bad lead cells too. Mind you the result is a bit less explosive than when lithium ion goes bad. But acid leaks and to potential gasses if it reacts with something are not very fun either.
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The thing is, the lithium material actually being exposed to conditions which cause the notorious violent reaction are very rare. They are very popular in sensationalist media. For example, when a Tesla Li-ion battery pack burns (only two that I know of) it is front page news. I have seen, with my own eyes, four ICE cars ablaze in the relatively small city of Columbus, Ohio. I know you were comparing battery tech, but it is funny when people focus so hard on the negative that they fail to see the bigger picture.

This is the same reason we are still burning coal to generate electricity in the US. An ancient reactor design failed in Michigan and it was too close to when Chernobyl went down. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon that fission reactors were evil, and kept consuming more energy anyways. Ignorant of where it came from, or what generation was actually doing from the "less evil" sources.

skyking said:
Looks like a solution looking for a problem to me. Large scale conversion loss is only one reason that it looks bad to me.
I have some more modest goals with onsite energy storage. If I had solar I would have a modest bank of some sort, and the whole house would have DC lighting circuits. LED are DC, so you have no conversion losses to speak of. This also takes away the conversion loss of LED lighting coming from the grid. During the day you make your own light, and at night too. In the event of the rare outage, having light is very handy.
This does not require much of a bank considering how efficient LED are.
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LEDs also need a specific voltage, and it is much cheaper to change voltage in AC than DC. That said, I am on the same page as you. Although I have thought of cooling inverters with a loop that heats water for HVAC or domestic use.

In the end, lighting loads are a pittance compared to things like refrigerators, heat pumps, and other big motor loads in a house. Even convenience items like hair dryers, and other resistive heating loads, while used intermittently, can dwarf LED lighting loads.
 
skyking said:
Looks like a solution looking for a problem to me. Large scale conversion loss is only one reason that it looks bad to me.
I have some more modest goals with onsite energy storage. If I had solar I would have a modest bank of some sort, and the whole house would have DC lighting circuits. LED are DC, so you have no conversion losses to speak of. This also takes away the conversion loss of LED lighting coming from the grid. During the day you make your own light, and at night too. In the event of the rare outage, having light is very handy.
This does not require much of a bank considering how efficient LED are.
Click to expand...

To me, it only makes sense if you either have solar & want night storage or live in a place that experiences constant brownouts. Otherwise, you charge the battery constantly and then it's only good for what, 8 hours? Then it's useless until the power comes back on & it can recharge. For the price of a Powerwall, you can buy a decent generator & ATS.

I haven't been able to track the model down yet, but my buddy said his neighbor got a whole-house generator that has a brownout battery built-in, so even if the power hiccups, it doesn't cut power to your home (which then shuts off your HTPC, computers, network gear, etc.) and if it doesn't come back on within a minute or whatever, fires off the generator so the house gets continuous power until the grid comes back online. That design makes an awful lot of sense to me!
 
My plan is only a fraction of a grid tied solar array. It won't take much off the side and it is only practical on a ground up new construction, for the DC wiring for the lighting. A pair of cheap deep cycles would do what I propose, LEDs are the bomb 🙂
 
natto fire said:
The thing is, the lithium material actually being exposed to conditions which cause the notorious violent reaction are very rare. They are very popular in sensationalist media. For example, when a Tesla Li-ion battery pack burns (only two that I know of) it is front page news. I have seen, with my own eyes, four ICE cars ablaze in the relatively small city of Columbus, Ohio. I know you were comparing battery tech, but it is funny when people focus so hard on the negative that they fail to see the bigger picture.

This is the same reason we are still burning coal to generate electricity in the US. An ancient reactor design failed in Michigan and it was too close to when Chernobyl went down. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon that fission reactors were evil, and kept consuming more energy anyways. Ignorant of where it came from, or what generation was actually doing from the "less evil" sources.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree with that, it's like people who are against hydro dams or wind turbines, and forget the fact that oil usage is MUCH more impacting to the environment than those things are.

Was mostly comparing it to stationary batteries in a house/building. Lead acid is probably safer. But I guess even that is debatable, because they produce hydrogen. If you have a lithium ion battery pack that has proper thermal sensors and safety it's probably just as safe. I'm sure Tesla has considered all of this with the Powerwall as well.
 
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Maybe I'm completely off-base, but I always just assumed that these things were meant to be paired with a solar system, as a 'AIO water cooler' version of the immensely complicated battery systems that custom home solar crowd have been building for the last decade. Just kind of plug-in and go, not so much planning needed. I know that's what I have been following them for (would love to have solar/Powerwall in my next home).

I don't think anyone rational would jump on this as a 'in case I have a blackout' system, as anything mission-critical enough to mandate power in the event of a blackout probably already has a (much cheaper) battery backup system.
 
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