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Terrorist attacks in India

Muse

Muse

Lifer
I was away for the holiday and very busy and didn't have time to check out what was going on in India vis a vis the terrorist attacks. Is there a link to a site that has a comprehensive explanation of what transpired? What I see on TV and the sites I've hit don't do this. TIA.
 
I think that the idea of a comprehensive explanation of these terrorists attacks is an oxymoron, certain facts may emerge, but a good explanation of why will escape analysis. Historically, India, like the Balkan States has been a historical football, where Muslim expansionism has met the rock of Hindu or Christian faith respectively. But unlike the Balkan States, Muslim expansionism did an end around India itself and expanded far to the east along the Indian ocean trade routes. Leaving India surrounded to its East and West by minority Muslim elements. And that has played out throughout a thousand years of Indian history until the hatreds are almost passed on to succeeding generations since birth.

What is likely to emerge as a supported fact is a linkage to these terrorist attacks and rouge elements inside of Pakistani ISI. And if the bloody shirt of vengeance is allowed free rein, a potential war is brewing between two nuclear armed countries. As it is, the flash point issue of the Kashmir dispute has kept both pro to India and pro to Pakistan at each others throat even before the British conquered India. And with India the 800 pound gorilla, it well leaves Pakistan as the paranoid underdog.

I on the other hand hope that these terrorists attacks will serve as a wake up call the the world's diplomatic community, that the time is now to defuse the Kashmir question. Get it settled and put into the past rather than allow it to be perpetual open wound to itch.
 
Got this in the mail. It's an unconfirmed report of the torture of the hostages by the terrorists. Am trying to get more information.


1. Gouging the eyes
2. Cutting fingers
3. Pulling the nails of children
4. Rape of women and then shooting their privates
5. Urinating on the hostages, especially women and kids
6. Peeling the skin off hostages and nipples of women
7. Pulling the hair of hostages

This is not fiction. These are first hand reports from doctors who attended those hostages to confirm death. Most hostages had body parts missing like the ones mentioned above. The doctors have never seen anything more horrific like this before.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by: crisscross
Got this in the mail. It's an unconfirmed report of the torture of the hostages by the terrorists. Am trying to get more information.


1. Gouging the eyes
2. Cutting fingers
3. Pulling the nails of children
4. Rape of women and then shooting their privates
5. Urinating on the hostages, especially women and kids
6. Peeling the skin off hostages and nipples of women
7. Pulling the hair of hostages

This is not fiction. These are first hand reports from doctors who attended those hostages to confirm death. Most hostages had body parts missing like the ones mentioned above. The doctors have never seen anything more horrific like this before.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Is there any credibility here? I find this hard to believe. Anyone?
 
Here is one.. talks about the torture though not as explicitly

Doctors shocked at hostages's torture

Krishnakumar P and Vicky Nanjappa in Mumbai | November 30, 2008 | 19:53 IST

They said that just one look at the bodies of the dead hostages as well as terrorists showed it was a battle of attrition that was fought over three days at the Oberoi and the Taj hotels in Mumbai.

Doctors working in a hospital where all the bodies, including that of the terrorists, were taken said they had not seen anything like this in their lives.

"Bombay has a long history of terror. I have seen bodies of riot victims, gang war and previous terror attacks like bomb blasts. But this was entirely different. It was shocking and disturbing," a doctor said.

Asked what was different about the victims of the incident, another doctor said: "It was very strange. I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was yet traumatised. A bomb blast victim's body might have been torn apart and could be a very disturbing sight. But the bodies of the victims in this attack bore such signs about the kind of violence of urban warfare that I am still unable to put my thoughts to words," he said.

Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood," one doctor said.

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. "During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis," an IB source said.

It is also said that the Israeli hostages were killed on the first day as keeping them hostage for too long would have focused too much international attention. "They also might have feared the chances of Israeli security agencies taking over the operations at the Nariman House," he reasoned.

On the other hand, there is enough to suggest that the terrorists also did not meet a clean, death.

The doctors who conducted the post mortem said the bodies of the terrorists were beyond recognition. "Their faces were beyond recognition."

There was no way of identifying them," he said. Asked how, if this is the case, they knew the bodies were indeed those of the terrorists, he said: "The security forces that brought the bodies told us that those were the bodies of the terrorists," he said, adding there was no other way they could have identified the bodies.

An intelligence agency source added: "One of the terrorists was shot through either eye."

A senior National Security Guard officer, who had earlier explained the operation in detail to rediff.com, said the commandos went all out after they ascertained that there were no more hostages left. When asked if the commandos attempted to capture them alive at that stage, he replied: "Unko bachana kaun chahega (Who will want to save them)?"
Click to expand...

Doctors shocked at hostages's torture
 
An article by the ex-chief of India's Intelligence Division

Pakistan: Thus far and no further
Thursday, 04 December , 2008, 13:01
B. Raman is an expert on security and anti-terrorism operations. He headed the Counter-Terrorism Division of the Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW) for six years. He has been a member of various special task forces related to security and intelligence issues. An internationally acclaimed writer and lecturer, he regularly contributes articles to various national and international publications on security-related topics.

You cannot convince somebody, who does not want to be convinced, who is not prepared to be convinced.

That has been our experience since 1981 when Pakistan started using terrorism as a weapon to keep India bleeding and to weaken it, in the hope that, by doing so, it will be able to force India to agree to a change in the status quo in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K).

The recovery by the Dubai authorities in 1983 from a Khalistani hijacker of a revolver which the German authorities certified in writing was from a consignment sold to the Pakistan Army; the recovery from the perpetrators of the March,1993 blasts of hand-grenades which Austrian experts certified in writing had been manufactured in Pakistan with technology and equipment sold by Austria to the Army-run Pakistan ordnance factories; the recovery from them of a chemical timer which the US certified in an unsigned note was part of a consignment supplied by the US to Pakistan in the 1980s and more and more and more.

?Former Pak army officials trained Mumbai attackers?

The more the evidence we collected, the stronger the rejection --- particularly from the US. Not sufficient enough. Does not directly implicate the Government of Pakistan. That was the stock reply we received repeatedly.

The US was interested only in protecting the lives and property of its citizens and in preventing another 9/11 in the US homeland from Pakistani territory. So long as Pakistan was co-operating with the US in action against Al Qaeda, the US closed its eyes and continues to close its eyes to Pakistani support for acts of jihadi terrorism directed against India.

One would have expected that the US attitude after the Mumbai terrorist strikes would have been different because the terrorists of the Pakistan Government-raised and backed Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) killed not only about 160 Indians, but also 25 foreigners --- six of them Israelis and another six Americans.

Pakistan must cooperate with India: Rice

The Jewish civilians killed by the terrorists in the Nariman House were subjected to brutalities the like of which the world has not seen since the brutalities inflicted on the Jewish people by the Nazis during the Second World War.

And yet, the attitude of the US and other Western countries has been the same as it has always been. Where is the evidence, we are asked.

What evidence?

Evidence of the death of 160 Indians?

Evidence of the death of six Americans?

Evidence of the death of six Israelis?

Evidence of the brutalities inflicted by the terrorists on the Jewish people?

Is not the capture by the public of one of the perpetrators, a Pakistani national, who has confessed that he is from Pakistan and that he belonged to the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) and that the entire operation was mounted by the LeT evidence enough?

Are not the intercepted telephone conversations between the perpetrators and their handlers in Pakistan evidence enough?

By the same author: What the CIA should tell Obama on Kashmir

Are not the movement and activities of Prof Hafiz Mohammad Sayeed, the Amir of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), the political wing of the LeT, in Pakistan as reported in the Pakistani media and in its own website evidence enough?

Is not the continued existence of the training camps of the LeT in Pakistani territory, including at Muridke, its headquarters near Lahore, evidence enough?

Is not the refusal of the Pakistan Government --- whether of Pervez Musharraf or Asif Ali Zardari --- to arrest the operatives of the LeT and close their camps despite an ostensible ban on it evidence enough?

What more evidence do the Americans want?

What evidence did they have when Ronald Reagan ordered the bombing of Libya in 1986 after an explosion in a West Berlin discotheque, which killed some Americans?

What evidence did they have before Bill Clinton ordered the Cruise missile attacks on jihadi training camps in Afghan territory in August,1998?

What evidence did they have against Al Qaeda and the Taliban before they bombed Afghanistan from October 7,2001?

What evidence did they have against the Saddam Hussain Government before they invaded and occupied Iraq in 2003?

Mumbai attacks: Pak?s UN envoy says no point in blame game

In every case affecting American nationals and interests, they bombed and then collected evidence. They did not wait till they had collected all the evidence possible before they bombed.

They did not act on the basis of evidence accepted by the international community. They acted on the basis of their conviction as to where from the attacks on Americans came.

Their actions were motivated by the need to show that nobody can play with American lives and get away with it.

We should stop demeaning ourselves as a nation by going to the Americans and others with evidence. I am shocked by suggestions that we should produce the evidence before the UN Security Council. I cannot think of a more naïve idea. It is as stupid as the advice given by the British to Jawaharlal Nehru to take the Kashmir issue to the UN Security Council with a promise that it would do justice by India.

The time for action against Pakistan has come. Action based on our conviction that the terrorists came from a Pakistani terrorist organization, which enjoys the patronage of Pakistan?s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

By the same author -- Obama: Dangers Of Indo-Pak Re-Hyphenation

The objective of the action should be to force Pakistan to act effectively against the LeT and its terrorist infrastructure. It should also be to mount a no-holds barred covert operation against the LeT through our own resources and methods.

Two steps the Government can take immediately:

# STEP No.1: Downgrade the diplomatic relations with Pakistan, terminate all economic relations including bilateral trade and communication links, suspend the confidence-building measures and the so-called peace process, terminate the talks on the gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan and withdraw from the so-called joint counter-terrorism mechanism, which has been a farce forced on Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh by the US. Announce that these actions will remain in force till Pakistan acts against the LeT and its terrorist leaders and infrastructure and hands over to India the terrorists wanted for trial in India.

# STEP No. 2: Revive immediately the covert action capability of the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), which was wound up by Inder Gujral, when he was the Prime Minister in 1997, and empower it to impose prohibitive costs on Pakistan till it stops using jihadi terrorism against India. The R&AW imposed heavy costs on Pakistan for supporting the Khalistanis and should be able to do so now for its support to the LeT and other jihadi terrorist organizations.

If step 2 has to be effective, there is an urgent need for a revamping of the R&AW. The organization has been in a bad state of affairs with low staff morale, factionalism and internal bickerings. Unfortunately, at this critical time in the nation?s history, the R&AW has no covert action specialists at the top of its pyramid. Get a suitable officer from the IB or the Army. If necessary, make him the head of the organization.

This is not the time for a direct military confrontation with Pakistan. It could prove counter-productive. It would enable the Pakistan Army to divert its troops from the Pashtun tribal belt to the Indian border and could unite the various jihadi organizations against India.

Peace process will be hit: India tells Pak

A divided Pakistan, a bleeding Pakistan, a Pakistan ever on the verge of collapse without actually collapsing --- that should be our objective till it stops using terrorism against India.

We should be realistic enough to anticipate that Pakistan will step up terrorism in Indian territory if we adopt such a policy. This should not deter us from embarking on this policy. The policy of active defence against Pakistan should be accompanied by time-bound action to strengthen our counter-terrorism capability at home.

The views expressed in the article are the author?s and not of Sify.com
Click to expand...
What India Needs to do
 
Originally posted by: crisscross
Here is one.. talks about the torture though not as explicitly

Doctors shocked at hostages's torture

Krishnakumar P and Vicky Nanjappa in Mumbai | November 30, 2008 | 19:53 IST

They said that just one look at the bodies of the dead hostages as well as terrorists showed it was a battle of attrition that was fought over three days at the Oberoi and the Taj hotels in Mumbai.

Doctors working in a hospital where all the bodies, including that of the terrorists, were taken said they had not seen anything like this in their lives.

"Bombay has a long history of terror. I have seen bodies of riot victims, gang war and previous terror attacks like bomb blasts. But this was entirely different. It was shocking and disturbing," a doctor said.

Asked what was different about the victims of the incident, another doctor said: "It was very strange. I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was yet traumatised. A bomb blast victim's body might have been torn apart and could be a very disturbing sight. But the bodies of the victims in this attack bore such signs about the kind of violence of urban warfare that I am still unable to put my thoughts to words," he said.

Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood," one doctor said.

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. "During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis," an IB source said.

It is also said that the Israeli hostages were killed on the first day as keeping them hostage for too long would have focused too much international attention. "They also might have feared the chances of Israeli security agencies taking over the operations at the Nariman House," he reasoned.

On the other hand, there is enough to suggest that the terrorists also did not meet a clean, death.

The doctors who conducted the post mortem said the bodies of the terrorists were beyond recognition. "Their faces were beyond recognition."

There was no way of identifying them," he said. Asked how, if this is the case, they knew the bodies were indeed those of the terrorists, he said: "The security forces that brought the bodies told us that those were the bodies of the terrorists," he said, adding there was no other way they could have identified the bodies.

An intelligence agency source added: "One of the terrorists was shot through either eye."

A senior National Security Guard officer, who had earlier explained the operation in detail to rediff.com, said the commandos went all out after they ascertained that there were no more hostages left. When asked if the commandos attempted to capture them alive at that stage, he replied: "Unko bachana kaun chahega (Who will want to save them)?"
Click to expand...

Doctors shocked at hostages's torture
Click to expand...

The last was more or less an opinion piece, a call to action and a critique/advocacy of Indian actions moving forward. This is the more credible piece, at least in terms of addressing the allegations of the terrorists employing torture. It seems to be evident. As stated, it is not detailed. Is there more credible and detailed information?
 

Other evidence emerged Thursday highlighting the sophistication and cruelty of the attacks. Some of the six people killed at the Jewish center in the city had been treated particularly savagely, the police said, with bodies bearing what appeared to be strangulation marks and other wounds that did not come from gunshots or grenades.
Click to expand...

Nytimes link
 
Originally posted by: crisscross

Other evidence emerged Thursday highlighting the sophistication and cruelty of the attacks. Some of the six people killed at the Jewish center in the city had been treated particularly savagely, the police said, with bodies bearing what appeared to be strangulation marks and other wounds that did not come from gunshots or grenades.
Click to expand...

Nytimes link
Click to expand...

That article and nothing you have posted or linked or anything else I have found in extensive web searches corroborates anything like the extent of the sadistic torture you indicated in your earlier posts. There were hints of torture of the Jewish hostages at Chabad House but no details.
 
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