Term Limits....House & Senate

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,726
45
91
how could term limits be put in place in either but preferably both house & senate when none of the bastards in their would vote for it? even a consecutive term limit and then the ability to run again later?

is there any way for the people to institute this since i think many would want it? or are we just fucked by our own gov on this one?
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
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0
Yes, convene a constitutional convention. Never been done, but in theory can be done by the states. Too much vested interest though. But hey, that is what the Second Amendment is for ;)
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
I like the old Roman system, where people had to wait X number of years before running for the same office again and had to spend those years outside of Rome.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
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how could term limits be put in place in either but preferably both house & senate when none of the bastards in their would vote for it? even a consecutive term limit and then the ability to run again later?

is there any way for the people to institute this since i think many would want it? or are we just fucked by our own gov on this one?

Instituting term limits without other election reforms would result in even worse corruption than we have today.

"We have term limits in these country. They are called elections." - Martin Sheen as Jed Bartlett.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Cut and paste: term limits are a terrible idea.

THey are a stopgap for other problems and cause worse ones.

Suddenly, you are always electing a stranger. The party machinery who gets to select candidates and give them a big edge to win is made much more powerful.

The candidate owes the office to the party and donors and not to the voters. And he can't run for re-election so there's no pressure to keep the voters happy. It stops being representative.

The legislators are inexperienced so we lose the good experienced ones who know how things work. The permanent bureacracy knows how to manipulte and delay the novice legislators. THey'll be gone.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Craig, again why do you support career politicians? The whole point of a career politician is to be re-elected. Why would we want someone like that in office when they care more about being re-elected and running their campaign than what's good for the country? We need a LOT of reform, to bad the people who can pass the reform will never do it.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,726
45
91
Cut and paste: term limits are a terrible idea.

THey are a stopgap for other problems and cause worse ones.

Suddenly, you are always electing a stranger. The party machinery who gets to select candidates and give them a big edge to win is made much more powerful.

The candidate owes the office to the party and donors and not to the voters. And he can't run for re-election so there's no pressure to keep the voters happy. It stops being representative.

The legislators are inexperienced so we lose the good experienced ones who know how things work. The permanent bureacracy knows how to manipulte and delay the novice legislators. THey'll be gone.

and the representation is so good atm? how can fresh people be a bad thing? and honestly, who are the good ones since you are so supportive of keeping career politicians in office?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
and the representation is so good atm? how can fresh people be a bad thing? and honestly, who are the good ones since you are so supportive of keeping career politicians in office?

The naivete is boggling. "Fresh" people. Fresh, unknown, selected by the party for their wilingness to do what the party tells them to on behalf of the party's donors.

The good ones? Henry Waxman, Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich, Pete Stark, Barbara Lee, Lynn Woolsey, John Conyers, Patrick Leahy, Marcy Kaptor, for a start.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Craig, again why do you support career politicians? The whole point of a career politician is to be re-elected. Why would we want someone like that in office when they care more about being re-elected and running their campaign than what's good for the country? We need a LOT of reform, to bad the people who can pass the reform will never do it.

Meal ticket
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Craig, again why do you support career politicians? The whole point of a career politician is to be re-elected. Why would we want someone like that in office when they care more about being re-elected and running their campaign than what's good for the country? We need a LOT of reform, to bad the people who can pass the reform will never do it.

Because they're critical for our country IMO. Thomas Jefferson was a 'career politician' - years and years dealing with the revolution politics, diplomacy with Francy, Secretary of State, working on Viriginia's constitution, president... his long experience made him a much better politician. Some like him move around, others are experienced in the same place.

When Henry Waxman leads the congressional oversight of the government, he has great experience. When Patrick Leahy oversees the judicial nominee process, he has a lot of useful experience. And so on.

The reform we need is the type which term limits make far MORE corrupt. Do you want Patrick Leahy who has may years of experience and demonstrated integrity in the process dealing with judges, or do you want someone you never heard of who doesn't know what to do to do it right, but it doesn't matter because his agenda is to speed through the party-approved nominees or block the party-opposed nominees and the public interest doesn't matter, and you can get upset if you like and have no say even over his re-election, since he's not running?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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A potentially better suggestion occurs to me.

Rather than having term limits I suggest we have party limits. Party A and B run for an office. After some number of terms, neither party can run for that seat for the same number of terms.

That would encourage the development of third parties, and "clone" parties and candidates would not be allowed. In other words if Charlie X had been a member of a party which ran in an election less than some number of years, he would be disqualified. Likewise, the parties themselves could not be tied to those who had run.

There would be some issues that would have to be resolved for this to kick in, especially initially, but hey we want choices, right?

Dems are Dems and Reps are Reps. Just replacing one with another is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for different results. That's crazy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
We have term limits right now, its called the ballot box.

And to keep my record not agreeing with Patranus, there are problems. Incumbents getting too much advantage for re-election are not good either. We want the good ones, not all of them.

THere are reforms needed to get the corrupting money that give the corporotocracy not only advantage but dominance that shuts out the citizens much of the time, that turn elections into a joke.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
I donate to the cause by volunteering, will you?

Hell no. If I am going to have a crooked politician represent me in congress, I want one that has a lot of experience, unless said politician is a lib, then you can sign me up.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
A potentially better suggestion occurs to me.

Rather than having term limits I suggest we have party limits. Party A and B run for an office. After some number of terms, neither party can run for that seat for the same number of terms.

That would encourage the development of third parties, and "clone" parties and candidates would not be allowed. In other words if Charlie X had been a member of a party which ran in an election less than some number of years, he would be disqualified. Likewise, the parties themselves could not be tied to those who had run.

There would be some issues that would have to be resolved for this to kick in, especially initially, but hey we want choices, right?

Dems are Dems and Reps are Reps. Just replacing one with another is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for different results. That's crazy.

There are so many 3rd parties as it is I just don't see it working, let alone being in line with the founding fathers and the framing. Not that they supported a two party system, just the representative gubment was supposed to be just that - which supports the term limits are the ballot box. I know it's been bastardized however and why we stopped the president by setting term limits.

Time to do the same with congress.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Hell no. If I am going to have a crooked politician represent me in congress, I want one that has a lot of experience, unless said politician is a lib, then you can sign me up.

If by experience you mean a junior senator that voted present most of the time from Illinois, look what we got.

This is why term limits would work so well. The country is so overwhelmingly against what the exec branch is doing, kick them all out. And we can do this by our vote, the recent ruling upholding the freedom of speech AND term limits. All of these together get us back to representative government.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Because they're critical for our country IMO. Thomas Jefferson was a 'career politician' - years and years dealing with the revolution politics, diplomacy with Francy, Secretary of State, working on Viriginia's constitution, president... his long experience made him a much better politician. Some like him move around, others are experienced in the same place.

When Henry Waxman leads the congressional oversight of the government, he has great experience. When Patrick Leahy oversees the judicial nominee process, he has a lot of useful experience. And so on.

The reform we need is the type which term limits make far MORE corrupt. Do you want Patrick Leahy who has may years of experience and demonstrated integrity in the process dealing with judges, or do you want someone you never heard of who doesn't know what to do to do it right, but it doesn't matter because his agenda is to speed through the party-approved nominees or block the party-opposed nominees and the public interest doesn't matter, and you can get upset if you like and have no say even over his re-election, since he's not running?

Like the term liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, what defines a career politician now a days isn't what defined a career politician in Thomas Jeffersons days. Also, term limits would only cause problems if we didn't change anything else. If we establish term limits, let it be 4 or 5 terms vs 2 like for presidency AND kick special interest groups out remove all the bullshit which basically forces us into a 2 party system, repeal the 17th amendment, we could do perfectly fine with shorter term limits. In fact I'm more in favor of removing the 17th amendment than I am term limits.

Also, why would we take your word on "good politicians" you believe Ted Kennedy is an ideal example of a career politician.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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There are so many 3rd parties as it is I just don't see it working, let alone being in line with the founding fathers and the framing. Not that they supported a two party system, just the representative gubment was supposed to be just that - which supports the term limits are the ballot box. I know it's been bastardized however and why we stopped the president by setting term limits.

Time to do the same with congress.




I think some of the founding fathers would be aghast at how things have turned out. Washington was against political parties period. You'll recall his speech regarding that. I tend to agree, but political parties are a natural development of having freedom of association and choice. That doesn't mean that the two party system is ideal. It's merely a politically Darwinian result, where one party alone would constitute an effective dictatorship, and more would result in an unstable equilibrium of sorts. Many people spending effort to differentiate themselves instead of consolidating power. Two are therefore the best "thermodynamically stable" configuration of politics, if you understand what I mean. Most bang for the buck.

Well if it were nature, then that's just how it has to be, and if candidates were to put their office before other considerations it would also work.

Unfortunately we have come to a state where the good of "The Party" has come to be the most important consideration. The process of being able to run for office is controlled by people who's very job is to look out for the party, i.e. keeping it in power and opposing the other.

Great for them, bad for us because their replacements will be whoever the party blesses. Sure they can sound different, but once in office they are Dems or Reps first. I contend that this is the major reason that government officials are so unresponsive and out of touch with the electorate. They simply do not need to be, because you have no choice but to vote for whomever they select or the other party get's in.

A perpetual choice of the lesser of two evils.

The obvious solution is to have more choices. A third party would seem to be the way to go, but in practice the system guarantees one could not come to power. Why? Because it upsets the equilibrium of the system.

Example. You have a new Party X who contends they are a better choice than the other two. What has to happen for them to win? They have to split the vote of the other two parties, and gain enough support from the independents to win control, which is a daunting (and I risk using the word impossible) task.

Now the voter has three choices. Voters tend to have preferences between parties, and whether it's to get someone in office or keep someone out, that's how they vote. If they go with a third option, even if they like it, they most likely realize it may drain enough votes away so that the people the voter in question really doesn't want wins.

The choice becomes whether to "throw away" one's vote to choose who he or she would like and perhaps guarantee the worst of all options wins, or select from Hobson's choices, one of which wouldn't be as bad as the other (hopefully).

That doubt is the deciding factor in elections, and it's a legitimate one. Consider what happened with Nader and Ross Perot.

In the end we have the same two parties who know you have no real choice but to put one in office, and they take us for granted.

How does one counter such power? By removing it, but not in perpetuity. That way others who do not meet the "standards" (read mindset) of the Dems and Reps have a chance and we have alternatives. We could make it so that Dems and Reps AND the new parties have to sit it out, giving yet another set of people a shot.

If we did that the Dems and Reps can run again, but there is a new twist. Their complete hold on politics is tenuous at best, and they had better be listening to the people or they will be beat when it's their turn by an upstart. Even if they bested their opposition, they had better enact policies in tune with the nation or be forever consigned to the dust bin.

IMO it would introduce a bit of chaos into the system, however that is preferable to the status quo we will have forever.

Replacing one cookie cutter politician with another will not gain us a thing.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Like the term liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, what defines a career politician now a days isn't what defined a career politician in Thomas Jeffersons days. Also, term limits would only cause problems if we didn't change anything else. If we establish term limits, let it be 4 or 5 terms vs 2 like for presidency AND kick special interest groups out remove all the bullshit which basically forces us into a 2 party system, repeal the 17th amendment, we could do perfectly fine with shorter term limits. In fact I'm more in favor of removing the 17th amendment than I am term limits.

Also, why would we take your word on "good politicians" you believe Ted Kennedy is an ideal example of a career politician.

Why would we take your word, when you think Sen. Kennedy was so terrible and are uninformed about the good things he did?

We agree on one thing - the special interest money out of politics, which also benefits the system withot term limits.

Removing the 17th amendment is terrible as well.

It was put i for very good reasons to reduce corruption. Read a book sometime on how bad it was. It was another example of the fonding fathers' plan not working out as it got corrupted.

Want a real reform beside the money? Have states pass ranked voting, so people can vote 3rd party.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
<snip>

IMO it would introduce a bit of chaos into the system, however that is preferable to the status quo we will have forever.

Replacing one cookie cutter politician with another will not gain us a thing.

Agree, nice post. I don't even pretend to have the answers but basic psychology is at play here and we are still tribal animals to our own detriment. It's just how our minds work.

The OP asked how to implement term limits in Congress if they are the ones proposing and ratifying such an amendment.

I say again we don't need them to do so. Yes, that's We The People. And I'm exhibiting my own group think and animal instinct without even realizing it, I know that.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Agree, nice post. I don't even pretend to have the answers but basic psychology is at play here and we are still tribal animals to our own detriment. It's just how our minds work.

The OP asked how to implement term limits in Congress if they are the ones proposing and ratifying such an amendment.

I say again we don't need them to do so. Yes, that's We The People. And I'm exhibiting my own group think and animal instinct without even realizing it, I know that.


I'm not suggesting that what I have proposed is without flaw, and upon closer scrutiny there may be better options. It just flashed into my head when I read the title and I realized that there might be other ways to implement reform.

Consider though that it would allow you to work to form a party that you could get behind which would have a real chance to make it to the market of political ideas. So could others. What will be accepted and what will work? I don't know, but you could be heard, as well as others who would choose another path.