Teens to be charged as adults in rock-overpass death.

[SNC]

Nonsense. What you feel is rage that I have dared informed you of the cowardly nature of your willingness to pass on the conditioned nature of your self righteous morality to others. You are such a very good boy and I love you dearly. And don't forget how I threatened to withdraw my love and paddle your ass if you ever again act like those other filthy children again. Now run along and behave my deary.

Now your just downright fucking wacko!

 

[dank69]

You also wouldn't have had an appetite. Only a psychopath goes to eat lunch right after killing someone.

So far from the stories I've read I can't determine whether they knew what happened, but if they did, I'm inclined to conclude that they should go away from quite awhile.

Either way, they should do significant time. My stupid behavior as a teen was stealing candy from the local supermarket, cheating on a couple of tests, and smoking weed, not dropping heavy rocks into traffic.

That's what I was getting at: it is possible they had no idea anyone was even hurt.

 

[Captante]

That's what I was getting at: it is possible they had no idea anyone was even hurt.

Intention does matter in terms of punishment severity however if you are dumb enough not to realize that tossing a rock off a highway overpass might result in serious injury I'm not sure I want you out walking around.

Having said that no question my appetite would be a little off if I knew I'd hurt/killed someone.

 

[Moonbeam]

My stupid behavior as a teen was stealing candy from the local supermarket, cheating on a couple of tests, and smoking weed, not dropping heavy rocks into traffic.

I'm betting SNC didn't do any of that shit.

 

[Darwin333]

well that wasnt the case though was it, they were decided to be unfit for charging as an adult due to cognitive reasons. i said that as part of a larger argument, which i thought was clear.

I understand why the two were declared to be unfit to be charged as an adult, I was addressing your statement on the larger argument and I thought it was clear. Specifically:

like say one was passively present but trying to be the voice of reason getting charged with a lesser crime.

I will ask again, why do you think that person should be charged with a lesser crime instead of not being charged with a crime at all?

 

[snarfbot]

I understand why the two were declared to be unfit to be charged as an adult, I was addressing your statement on the larger argument and I thought it was clear. Specifically:



I will ask again, why do you think that person should be charged with a lesser crime instead of not being charged with a crime at all?

no you are fundamentally misunderstanding what i said

i bolded the part, where in my original quote did i say that i think that or want that to happen? its a hypothetical what if scenario.

 

[SNC]

I'm betting SNC didn't do any of that shit.

Wrong, I stole food to eat because I was homeless, mainly from grocery dumpsters and bakeries trash cans. In the summer I would hit a farm or two for some corn and veggies. I hunted and fished for a good bit of my food. As for pot I never really liked it I preferred vodka, but living on the street at 14 you take you can get and normally it was beer and cocaine. I spent more of my teens drunk and high on crack then not. But I never, ever did anything to hurt anyone but myself. I most certainly never dropped boulders on anyone. The only person I ever seriously damaged was the guy who shot me in the knee. I don't count that, he deserved it. I did however help anyone I saw that needed it, like changing a tire, or cutting the lawn, shoveling the driveway what it snowed. After I turned 21 and met my wife I cleaned up my act, quit smoking, drinking and drugs, now almost 25 years later I look at what I was and can hold my head up because I never harmed anyone in the process. If you think that snide comments from the likes of you are going to do a fucking thing to modify my behavior or mentality you are sadly mistaken, but it is fun watching.

 

[Darwin333]

no you are fundamentally misunderstanding what i said

i bolded the part, where in my original quote did i say that i think that or want that to happen? its a hypothetical what if scenario.

That is exactly what you said! You said what they are currently doing isn't fair but YOUR hypothetical what-if scenario would be, here is your full quote in case you forgot what you said...

if it were all or nothing, then it would be fair, or if say they were being charged with different crimes based on whether they were instigating the crime or not. like say one was passively present but trying to be the voice of reason getting charged with a lesser crime.

but thats not what happened, 3 out of the 5 are being charged and the other 2 are not, and that is absolutely not fair or just.

If that isn't what you meant then I'd ask you to clarify but you can't tell me that isn't what you typed because there it is.

 

[interchange]

I wonder if any objective person with not too much information or previous thought on this topic and having read this thread might conclude there is more than some pat or simple answer as to how to deal with such a case. Perhaps such a person might be inclined to the opinion that a tremendous amount of research, experience, and rational analysis would be required just to be able to scratch the surface of having any useful understanding and that all the a priori assumptions so many bring to the table are simply uninformed opinions reflexively formulated as absolutes. That might spare for the curious a wonder as to what makes us like that. That I would think might lead to some questions as to the nature of honesty and self understanding or even some wariness about certainty.

The importance of this post shouldn't be underestimated. It is a big problem when someone feels certain of things without access to the full details of a situation and without willingness to at least examine data that is presented. To be honest, I overstate the confidence that the data reliably confirms my position. I do not say things which are in conflict with research that I am aware of, but in providing some links I was expecting and hoping for challenge of what to take from the information. However, no one seems to have looked at it, and I'm not sure I've seen in this thread anyone develop doubt for their original position.

 

[SNC]

The importance of this post shouldn't be underestimated. It is a big problem when someone feels certain of things without access to the full details of a situation and without willingness to at least examine data that is presented. To be honest, I overstate the confidence that the data reliably confirms my position. I do not say things which are in conflict with research that I am aware of, but in providing some links I was expecting and hoping for challenge of what to take from the information. However, no one seems to have looked at it, and I'm not sure I've seen in this thread anyone develop doubt for their original position.

Yourself included. Perhaps the pure disregard for human life shown by these "kids" and the lack of remorse after the fact, is a contributing factor in people's willingness - or lack thereof - to change positions.

 

[interchange]

Yourself included. Perhaps the pure disregard for human life shown by these "kids" and the lack of remorse after the fact, is a contributing factor in people's willingness - or lack thereof - to change positions.

It's true my position hasn't changed in this thread. Has anyone provided any evidence that puts any of my positions into question?

 

[SNC]

It's true my position hasn't changed in this thread. Has anyone provided any evidence that puts any of my positions into question?

Have you? I don't mean links to studies about this or that, but about this case. You seem to want this guys to get a cake walk because they are young. The other side want then to either rot or do life because they killed someone. I can't think of any compelling reason you or anyone could provide that would change my mind. UNTIL you find some way to make the kids and widow whole - to find some way to ensure that the kids don't end up fucked in the head for the rest of their lives - then the "kids" who started this fucking mess need to pay.

 

[Moonbeam]

Wrong, I stole food to eat because I was homeless, mainly from grocery dumpsters and bakeries trash cans. In the summer I would hit a farm or two for some corn and veggies. I hunted and fished for a good bit of my food. As for pot I never really liked it I preferred vodka, but living on the street at 14 you take you can get and normally it was beer and cocaine. I spent more of my teens drunk and high on crack then not. But I never, ever did anything to hurt anyone but myself. I most certainly never dropped boulders on anyone. The only person I ever seriously damaged was the guy who shot me in the knee. I don't count that, he deserved it. I did however help anyone I saw that needed it, like changing a tire, or cutting the lawn, shoveling the driveway what it snowed. After I turned 21 and met my wife I cleaned up my act, quit smoking, drinking and drugs, now almost 25 years later I look at what I was and can hold my head up because I never harmed anyone in the process. If you think that snide comments from the likes of you are going to do a fucking thing to modify my behavior or mentality you are sadly mistaken, but it is fun watching.

What you experienced as a snide remark was written to draw you out. Like you, I was repelled by danks comments about the things he did as a teenager. And like you I can hold my head up high with the same pride that you do, if for different reasons. not only did I never harm anybody or acted is rash manners I never stole, anything, cheated or did drugs. My behavior was pretty much morally exemplary. What I came to find contemptible was my pride in that fact, and my contempt for the less than perfect. I had a childhood that pretty much made being moral easy but for some reason caused my self analysis to be pitiless and exhaustive. Maybe when being good is easy the aim becomes to be perfect. Not a good move if you're going to look at yourself.

As an avid consumer of morality I constantly ran into challenging notions like walking in somebody else's shoes and reminders to keep in mind that there but for the grace of God go I. If there were a moral value to treasure, for me it would be humility.

I wasn't trying to be snide. I know you because I am you and I would give anything to modify my behavior and mentality. We are both prisoners in my opinion, like horses who know the way to the barn, but it seems to me you may have a more faith in the invisible bit that guides you there than I do.

 

[Moonbeam]

Have you? I don't mean links to studies about this or that, but about this case. You seem to want this guys to get a cake walk because they are young. The other side want then to either rot or do life because they killed someone. I can't think of any compelling reason you or anyone could provide that would change my mind. UNTIL you find some way to make the kids and widow whole - to find some way to ensure that the kids don't end up fucked in the head for the rest of their lives - then the "kids" who started this fucking mess need to pay.

Your mistake here I think is in that word need. Do they need to pay or do you need to feel they will pay? How can there be any need for what is, will be, and has already become certain to occur. Then we can get to your price. Would a pound of flesh do?

 

[interchange]

Have you? I don't mean links to studies about this or that, but about this case.

Your suggestion is that we completely disregard all we have learned from the past? And to draw conclusions from media representations of a case without access to evidence provided in a courtroom and without psychiatric examination?

You seem to want this guys to get a cake walk because they are young.

I've continually asked you to substantiate claims that I do not wish to provide significant punishment for their crimes.

UNTIL you find some way to make the kids and widow whole - to find some way to ensure that the kids don't end up fucked in the head for the rest of their lives - then the "kids" who started this fucking mess need to pay.

How is treating them with disdain and long imprisonment going to make the widow whole or spare the kids' future emotional health?

 

[Moonbeam]

It isn't the pure disregard for human life that is the issue for me, but your certainty their disregard for life was factually pure or that if it were, that alone and in isolation leads to the conclusions you have drawn as the only ones a rational mind would consider.

 

[Moonbeam]

..

 

[snarfbot]

That is exactly what you said! You said what they are currently doing isn't fair but YOUR hypothetical what-if scenario would be, here is your full quote in case you forgot what you said...


If that isn't what you meant then I'd ask you to clarify but you can't tell me that isn't what you typed because there it is.

Let's just start over, if hypothetically the prosecution decided that 2 of the kids were actively trying to prevent the other 3 from doing this heinous act, or were otherwise not participating in it then it would acceptable to not charge them and charge the others.

But in reality it was arbitrarily decided that 2 of the 5 were unfit to stand trial. Therefore they shared the same guilt yet only 3 out of the 5 will have to face the consequences. The consequences that will be life destroying. So while they made a terrible decision leaving a man dead and his family ruined is the solution to ruin the lives of these 3 kids? What is so special about the other 2? is it because their parents just more important (wealthy) than the others?

 

[SNC]

Your suggestion is that we completely disregard all we have learned from the past? And to draw conclusions from media representations of a case without access to evidence provided in a courtroom and without psychiatric examination?



I've continually asked you to substantiate claims that I do not wish to provide significant punishment for their crimes.



How is treating them with disdain and long imprisonment going to make the widow whole or spare the kids' future emotional health?

What we have learned from the past of what? You want to apply the finding from a study of people for whom feel the rule of law does not apply? I'm drawing my conclusions from the exact same pool of information you are, unless you're not not telling us something...

As for your stand on punishment in this case, you don't have to type it out in so many words for us to get that you want these kids to have a shot at life after this is over. For that to happen they need to get out of jail in relatively short order for then to have any opportunity. So until you specifically state what you think should happen we will continue to guess. I think they should do life, and while able work a position that earns cash that goes directly to the family they destroyed.

Long term imprisonment might not make the family better off but a short one definitely will have a negative impact.
Again I ask, with full knowledge you will not address it and reference some study of some sort that ignores the victim - why do you give more fucks about the kids that killed a man then you do for the kids left fatherless?

 

[interchange]

What we have learned from the past of what? You want to apply the finding from a study of people for whom feel the rule of law does not apply? I'm drawing my conclusions from the exact same pool of information you are, unless you're not not telling us something...

If you are actively ignoring studies on teenage offenders and murderers, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Unless you are a psychiatrist, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Unless you have actually done forensic evaluations, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Unless you have actually met with multiple murderers and talked to them about their offense, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Please tell me which pool of information you are drawing from.

As for your stand on punishment in this case, you don't have to type it out in so many words for us to get that you want these kids to have a shot at life after this is over. For that to happen they need to get out of jail in relatively short order for then to have any opportunity. So until you specifically state what you think should happen we will continue to guess. I think they should do life, and while able work a position that earns cash that goes directly to the family they destroyed.

I have spelled it out in this thread with specific numbers.

Long term imprisonment might not make the family better off but a short one definitely will have a negative impact.
Again I ask, with full knowledge you will not address it and reference some study of some sort that ignores the victim - why do you give more fucks about the kids that killed a man then you do for the kids left fatherless?

Why are you presuming that you know what the widow wants? Are you the widow?

There is evidence that your approach to justice leads to more recidivism, more incarceration, more violence. Why do you give more fucks about what you perceive the widow wants than protecting society?

 

[SNC]

If you are actively ignoring studies on teenage offenders and murderers, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Unless you are a psychiatrist, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Unless you have actually done forensic evaluations, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Unless you have actually met with multiple murderers and talked to them about their offense, then you are not drawing from the same pool of information I am. Please tell me which pool of information you are drawing from.



I have spelled it out in this thread with specific numbers.



Why are you presuming that you know what the widow wants? Are you the widow?

There is evidence that your approach to justice leads to more recidivism, more incarceration, more violence. Why do you give more fucks about what you perceive the widow wants than protecting society?

I find that your impressive list of pools you claim to have drawn from has zero victim categories. I can gather from that that you haven't ever been involved with a family that has lost a member due to violence or senseless acts. Its painfully obvious you are more concerned with the murderers rights and wellbeing then the family that is left to put their life back together because of someone else's disregard. Have you ever known someone who lost a father to violence, and after years of struggling with the loss and hopelessness took their own life after years of self medicating, only to leave their child to fend for themselves, no I didn't think so. How many generations will it take for that family to be normal again? Those people would fuck up your perfect little vision of how the prison system harms those in it. You claim to have this vast array of knowledge, but when you look at a mirror from only one angle you only see what you want. In my world of laws there would be no recidivism rate, those found guilty of murder would spend the rest of their lives paying. Am I the widow? What the fuck is that? You look at people's lives from your air conditioned office and proclaimed to know what is good for those that have lost. Try LIVING with them for a while, and seeing the pain and suffering that NEVER ends. The strength it takes every single fucking day to get out of bed and try to be productive. Then after years of that suffering you come to find the the person responsible for that pain, is free to walk around, to get a job, experience life, joy, happiness, all while you are still trying to put your back together. I don't need a fucking study or book or forensic evaluation to arrive at my position. I've lived with people, I've seen it, it's not pretty. But please tell me how I'm wrong, I'll pass it on to the kids of the kid that lost her father and then killed herself because she couldn't deal with the loss. Thats if they are not in jail or dead yet. You only know what you see, try opening your eyes.

 

[HomerJS]

In light of the affluenza kid why should they be charged as adults? Seems connections and money can get you kids easy treatment.

 

[snarfbot]

What we have learned from the past of what? You want to apply the finding from a study of people for whom feel the rule of law does not apply? I'm drawing my conclusions from the exact same pool of information you are, unless you're not not telling us something...

As for your stand on punishment in this case, you don't have to type it out in so many words for us to get that you want these kids to have a shot at life after this is over. For that to happen they need to get out of jail in relatively short order for then to have any opportunity. So until you specifically state what you think should happen we will continue to guess. I think they should do life, and while able work a position that earns cash that goes directly to the family they destroyed.

Long term imprisonment might not make the family better off but a short one definitely will have a negative impact.
Again I ask, with full knowledge you will not address it and reference some study of some sort that ignores the victim - why do you give more fucks about the kids that killed a man then you do for the kids left fatherless?

You seriously want these kids to go to jail for life? Wtf.

 

[SNC]

You seriously want these kids to go to jail for life? Wtf.

I do, just as I would any other person who takes anothers life. What do you think they should do? 5, 10, 20?

Even Interchanges own "study" shows that of the 272,000 convicted murders released 1.2% were brought back in because they murdered someone else. Gee my math as that as releasing these fuckup individules was the direct cause of 3000+ murders that would not have happened if they stayed locked up. Seems like a pretty good reason to toss the fucking key.

 

[SNC]

In light of the affluenza kid why should they be charged as adults? Seems connections and money can get you kids easy treatment.

No he needs to be put away for life too.