Teenager shot dead after playing loud music

[Londo_Jowo]

Interesting questions from the jury and answers from the judge.

http://legalinsurrection.com/

UPDATE (2-15): 9:50AM Jury questions:
(1) Is the defense of self-defense separate for each person in each count? A: “Yes.”

(2) Are we determining if deadly force is justified against each person in each count? A: “Yes.”

(3) Or if we determine deadly force is justified against one person, is it justified against others? A: “No. Self defense and justifiable use of deadly force applies separately to each count.”

 

[Ichinisan]

... That's why Florida is a mess. Because of the very low standard to get a self defense instruction, and this asinine stand your ground law, it creates a unrealistic burden on the state to get any conviction in a case where someone claims self defense.

"Unrealistic?" Ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty?"

You think an ideal situation is that every person defending himself/herself should be convicted of murder/manslaughter?

 

[Catriona]

Interesting questions from the jury and answers from the judge.

http://legalinsurrection.com/

So what's the sentence in Florida for 3 counts of attempted murder?

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story...-trial/2014/02/14/dunn-life-sentence/5485419/

Found this

 

[Ichinisan]

This trial has convinced me that SYG is poorly written and must be changed to include a basic burden of proof to show us "credible, capable, and imminent".

Wait, so you're supposed to not defend yourself until you collect proof that you're being attacked? So a victim must allow the crime to be committed against himself/herself so he/she can then play the role of crime scene investigator and collect evidence, then defend himself/herself when it may already be too late?

 

[Ichinisan]

I dont know about you, but if I were driving with someone bleeding to death in the back seat I'd be driving to a hospital.

Well until you are in the situation where someone is actually bleeding to death in the back seat after you were just repeatedly shot at I'd say you really don't know for sure what you would do.

No. You'd drive to the hospital. That is what you'd do.

 

[Vic]

I dont know about you, but if I were driving with someone bleeding to death in the back seat I'd be driving to a hospital.

He was hit in the descending aorta. Unless the hospital is next door, you couldn't possibly get there fast enough.

 

[TerryMathews]

Well until you are in the situation where someone is actually bleeding to death in the back seat after you were just repeatedly shot at I'd say you really don't know for sure what you would do.

Youre right, I dont know and neither do you however returning to the scene of the attack seems to be the least productive course of action if youre thinking logically and at the same time would run counter to the flight response if you're panicked.

 

[Ichinisan]

He was hit in the descending aorta. Unless the hospital is next door, you couldn't possibly get there fast enough.

The kids knew exactly which part of the organ was damaged? Fascinating.

 

[fskimospy]

Wait, so you're supposed to not defend yourself until you collect proof that you're being attacked? So a victim must allow the crime to be committed against himself/herself so the he/she can then play the role of crime scene investigator and collect evidence, then defend himself/herself when it may already be too late?

Nope, just that the standard is too low.

Scumbags like Dunn deserve to be in prison. It looks like he's going there anyway, but it shouldn't even have been a question. The evidence is overwhelming.

 

[TerryMathews]

He was hit in the descending aorta. Unless the hospital is next door, you couldn't possibly get there fast enough.

How would they possibly know that in the moment?

This argument is ridiculous.

 

[blankslate]

So what's the sentence in Florida for 3 counts of attempted murder?

I found this

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story...-trial/2014/02/14/dunn-life-sentence/5485419/

Even if the jury fails to convict on a first or second degree murder charge in the November 2012 death of Jordan Davis, it's possible jurors could find Dunn guilty of three charges of attempted murder -- one for each surviving teen.

Dunn has admitted firing at the vehicle as it left the Gate gas station, and surveillance tapes capture a few-second delay before the final volley of shots were fired. If the jury believes those shots were not fired in self defense, Dunn could be convicted of three attempted murder charges -- each a gun crime, with a minimum sentence of 20 years.

Unless those sentences were served concurrently -- something court watchers familiar with Judge Russell Healey's tough reputation believe is unlikely -- Dunn would be facing a 60-year minimum prison sentence.

This would be a good result.

I also believe just heard on the streamcast I listened to that Judge Healey is going to allow the jury to consider lesser charges for that deadlocked charge. I could have misheard that though.

However, if they convict on 3 counts of attempted murder then it's at least 20 years. More if the Judge determines that the sentences must be served consecutively rather than concurrently.



........


edited to add

This would also give pause to the some few members in this forum who always seem to side with the shooter in "self defense" cases that go to trial regardless of the evidence or the behavior of the shooter after the incident.

In this case, failure to call the police in a shooting you're involved in (if you're justified in the shooting why not call the police?), driving away, ordering pizza in a motel room then driving home 160 miles away before being picked up by the police.

Sorry but some suspicious people might think that he was hoping to not get caught.



......

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So what's the sentence in Florida for 3 counts of attempted murder?

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story...-trial/2014/02/14/dunn-life-sentence/5485419/

Found this

According to Andrew Branca he's looking at 20 years if the jury doesn't apply self defense to the attempted murder charges.

Andrew Branca, LOSD @LawSelfDefense If jury declines to apply SD to ANY charge, Dunn's looking at 20. @CB_Demented #dunntrial

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I found this

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story...-trial/2014/02/14/dunn-life-sentence/5485419/
This would be a good result.

I also believe just heard on the streamcast I listened to that Judge Healey is going to allow the Jury to consider lesser charges for that deadlocked charge. I could have misheard that though.

However, if they convict on 3 counts of attempted murder then it's at least 20 years. More if the Judge determines that the sentences must be served consecutively rather than concurrently.



........

There's two different levels of attempted murder so it could be he's allowing them to consider the lesser level.

 

[Jaskalas]

"Unrealistic?" Ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty?"

If Mr. Dunn's involvement in the shooting was in question, he'd be innocent until proven guilty. Fact is he freely admits to being the one who shot and killed that teen.

Moving on from there we must determine if the killing is justifiable. Excuse me if I want something tangible to excuse for why a person was killed. I want a "reasonable fear" and the only way for it to be reasonable is if I have something to judge it by. Proof that any threat existed whatsoever. Cause in this case that simply does not exist.

I will not just take the word of the shooter, but instead use other evidence to try and corroborate it. If it cannot be substantiated that the threat was "credible, capable, and imminent" then how am I to allow one person to kill another?

 

[Jaskalas]

He was hit in the descending aorta. Unless the hospital is next door, you couldn't possibly get there fast enough.

The kids knew exactly which part of the organ was damaged? Fascinating.

Maybe when he passed out, stopped breathing, and his heart stopped. Wouldn't have taken more than 5 minutes, probably less.

 

[Catriona]

I found this

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story...-trial/2014/02/14/dunn-life-sentence/5485419/
This would be a good result.

I also believe just heard on the streamcast I listened to that Judge Healey is going to allow the jury to consider lesser charges for that deadlocked charge. I could have misheard that though.

However, if they convict on 3 counts of attempted murder then it's at least 20 years. More if the Judge determines that the sentences must be served consecutively rather than concurrently.



........


edited to add

This would also give pause to the some few members in this forum who always seem to side with the shooter in "self defense" cases that go to trial regardless of the evidence or the behavior of the shooter after the incident.

In this case, failure to call the police in a shooting you're involved in (if you're justified in the shooting why not call the police?), driving away, ordering pizza in a motel room then driving home 160 miles away before being picked up by the police.

Sorry but some suspicious people might think that he was hoping to not get caught.



......

I agree. Whatever doubtful circumstances may surround the altercation with Davis, the 3 other boys weren't a part of it.

 

[TerryMathews]

Maybe when he passed out, stopped breathing, and his heart stopped. Wouldn't have taken more than 5 minutes, probably less.

Regardless, there's no scenario where they are better off staying at the scene.

 

[TerryMathews]

I agree. Whatever doubtful circumstances may surround the altercation with Davis, the 3 other boys weren't a part of it.

He would be protected under traditional self defense law in Florida but that protection should end prior to the shots he took at the rear of the vehicle.

Fun fact: hypothetically, if Davis committed a felony that led to Dunn utilizing self-defense and as a result one of the other passengers were killed as a result Davis would be the one legally responsible under felony murder.

This came up recently in a robbery case but I'm struggling to remember the names.

ETA: found it. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4034052/

 

[fskimospy]

This would also give pause to the some few members in this forum who always seem to side with the shooter in "self defense" cases that go to trial regardless of the evidence or the behavior of the shooter after the incident.

In this case, failure to call the police in a shooting you're involved in (if you're justified in the shooting why not call the police?), driving away, ordering pizza in a motel room then driving home 160 miles away before being picked up by the police.

Sorry but some suspicious people might think that he was hoping to not get caught.

......

And can you imagine any case where some black kids shot someone, drove away and ordered a pizza without calling the cops where Geosurface, SA, or spidey would not be salivating at the thought of putting them in jail for a long time? (if not worse?)

 

[Catriona]

He would be protected under traditional self defense law in Florida but that protection should end prior to the shots he took at the rear of the vehicle.

Fun fact: hypothetically, if Davis committed a felony that led to Dunn utilizing self-defense and as a result one of the other passengers were killed as a result Davis would be the one legally responsible under felony murder.

This came up recently in a robbery case but I'm struggling to remember the names.

The 3 shots as the car was fleeing have always been unjustifiable to me. That was rage, pure and simple, in my opinion.

 

[mugs]

I dont know about you, but if I were driving with someone bleeding to death in the back seat I'd be driving to a hospital.

We've been through all of this before. Yeah, going to the hospital would have made more sense. Especially if they had a gun they wanted to get rid of - they could have ditched it somewhere along the way instead of leaving it at the crime scene. There was nothing suspicious about running away, because Dunn was actively shooting at them. There was nothing suspicious about returning to the scene of the murder, because it did not benefit them if they were trying to hide something.

And contrary to SpaciallyUnaware's repeated lies despite being corrected so many times, the victims never tried to hide the fact that they left the gas station and came back.

Interesting questions from the jury and answers from the judge.

http://legalinsurrection.com/

Looks like the jury bought Dunn's lies despite all of the evidence that he was lying. I feel bad for Jordan's family. Dunn will likely be spending years in prison though, so he won't be able to murder any more kids for a while.

 

[fskimospy]

He would be protected under traditional self defense law in Florida but that protection should end prior to the shots he took at the rear of the vehicle.

Fun fact: hypothetically, if Davis committed a felony that led to Dunn utilizing self-defense and as a result one of the other passengers were killed as a result Davis would be the one legally responsible under felony murder.

This came up recently in a robbery case but I'm struggling to remember the names.

ETA: found it. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4034052/

Felony murder is one of the dumbest laws on the books in the US. Technically if you rob a bank and someone has a heart attack at the bank while you're doing it you can be charged with their murder. It makes no sense.

Regardless, from the questions the jury asked about their ability to come to a decision on four counts but not the fifth it seems highly likely that Dunn is going to prison for a long time, and rightfully so. He should still be convicted of murder, but so long as he's somewhere where he can't threaten any more people that's a decent runner up.

 

[Vic]

The kids knew exactly which part of the organ was damaged? Fascinating.

It bleeds out in dramatic fashion and death is in less than 4 minutes.

 

[waggy]

i just want to say i am in shock that it is still with the jury.

 

[Geosurface]

And can you imagine any case where some black kids shot someone, drove away and ordered a pizza without calling the cops where Geosurface, SA, or spidey would not be salivating at the thought of putting them in jail for a long time? (if not worse?)

The races in this case have little if anything to do with my views on it, and the reason you think that they do is because in our society "white" and "black" often function as proxies for other things like having or not having a criminal record, being or not being the type to hang out with felons, being or not being the type to embrace certain elements of thug culture which often (but not always) accompany other elements of it, etc etc etc...

The fact is, in our society as it is today, if all someone tells you is that there was a shooting incident between a black person and a white person, the odds tell you a lot about what type of person each of them MORE THAN LIKELY is, because there are a lot of strong trends in our society.

But until you present me with a case where a white person with all the markers of thug culture, etc has been shot by a black person who has none of those markers and has instead all the markers of a normal, productive member of society... and then you see me do a complete 180 on it, you have no business thinking you have deduced some racial element in how I determine what I think in these cases.