Teenager shot dead after playing loud music

[Daverino]

I'm not aware of any witnesses who have said "I was watching the two vehicles closely for a minute or so leading up to the shots, and I can tell you with certainty that the door on the Durango never even began to open."

It still stands that no witness saw the door opening except for Dunn. It still stands that a number of people saw Dunn exit his vehicle and fire on the retreating Durango.

You're ignoring another obvious possibility: Davis starts to open the door, possibly to attack Dunn, or possibly just to scare him - and then he sees Dunn get the pistol out of his glove compartment, so he quickly pulls his leg back into the truck, and closes the door.

If this is true, you've answered your own question on self-defense. Under this scenario, Jordan is explicitly not threatening Dunn. In fact he is retreating.

Recall that his best friend and the forensics say that he was the only person in the Durango who did not manage to duck before the bullets started entering the vehicle. Despite the fact that he would have had the absolute best view of what Dunn was doing and seen the gun as early as anyone could. And he was the one the gun was pointed expressly at. If anyone was going to duck, it was him. So why was he the only one who didn't? Could it be because when Dunn was getting the gun out of the glove compartment, Davis had to use up those precious moments just RETURNING to his original position, instead of ducking like the other 3 did? His friend said he tried to pull him down when the bullets started coming. Why was he still up there, exposed, and needing to be pulled down? Was it because he had been in the middle of an ongoing attempt to either intimidate or attack Dunn, which he had not yet broken off at the time the bullets started flying?

Again, all you're saying here is that Dunn may have opened fire when Jordan was explicitly retreating, which nullifies the rationale for self defense. Furthermore, based on the forensic testimony, the path of the bullets through Jordan's body indicate that he was leaning to the left, away from Dunn. The expert dismissed the defense's assertion that Jordan was standing at the time he was shot. The defense is proposing that Jordan was standing outside the vehicle, was shot, re-entered the vehicle, closed the door and then died. Forensics contradict all of that.

Seems likely that if Dunn had come up with his pistol and seen Davis duck and cry out in fear, he might not have started firing. The fact that he did start firing might indicate that Davis still presented himself in such a way as to seem threatening at that time.

Not likely at all. Dunn fired a group of three shots at Jordan. Then he fired a separate four shot group at the front passenger. Finally he exited the vehicle and fired three more rounds at the fleeing vehicle. If Jordan was the sole threat, Dunn still fired seven rounds at non-threatening and fleeing individuals. Dunn had many opportunities to cease fire, but instead emptied his magazine at a fleeing vehicle.

The pocket knife was in Davis' pocket and they likely either didn't know it was there, or forgot about it being there in the heat of everything. The tripod they would not be likely to think was incriminating in any way. If Davis had pulled it out from under the seat (Dunn says he leaned down and brought something stick shaped up) they might have seen it was now laying on the floor instead of its usual spot under the seat, and may have realized it would be wise to return it to that spot. *Shrug*

It is a damned shame there was no external video surveillance trained on those parking spots. It's also a shame they didn't dust the tripod for Davis' finger prints and test it for any blood - which might have proven it wasn't under the seat at the time he was shot.

And again. If they were in the other parking lot with the presence of mind to 'stash their shotgun' then why didn't they stash the knife and the tripod? The defense cannot paint them as criminal masterminds who would disregard the life of their friend to stash their contraband weapons and then have them return to the scene with Jordan's pocket knife still in his pocket and the tripod still under the seat.

 

[Pens1566]

I think I trust the law school professor who wrote that more than I trust you to understand the law in Florida.

Hey, he did read a law book to his mother at one point ...

 

[Dr. Zaus]

A TEXAS land developer is dead after being gunned down by a teenager who moments earlier had asked the victim and his collogues to turn down the music coming from a pickup-truck stereo, justice officials said Tuesday.

Jim Worthington, 45, was hit at least twice by bullets fired by Tyrone Abu-Jamal, a 17-year-old high school student in custody over the incident which took place on Friday in Houston, said Sheriff's Department Lieutenant Rob Schoonover.

The shooting occurred after Mr Abu-Jamal, who is black, approached Worthington, who is white, to complain about country music coming from the pickup truck in which two other land developers were also seated.

"Worthington and Abu-Jamal exchanged words, and Abu-Jamal pulled a gun and shot eight or nine times, striking Worthington twice. No one else was hurt," said Lt.Schoonover.

No firearms were found in the victim's truck.

Mr Abu-Jamal, whose girlfriend was buying in a convenience store when the incident occurred, was visiting this particular part of town for his mother's wedding. He left the scene and returned to his motel but he was later traced from closed-circuit television footage.

Jill Worthington, the victim's wife, told local television that she wants to see justice done, "whether it be through the legal system," or God.

"God's going to punish him for that, so me, I don't want to do anything to him," She said.

 

[blankslate]

Recall that his best friend and the forensics say that he was the only person in the Durango who did not manage to duck before the bullets started entering the vehicle. Despite the fact that he would have had the absolute best view of what Dunn was doing and seen the gun as early as anyone could. And he was the one the gun was pointed expressly at. If anyone was going to duck, it was him.

Maybe he just froze like the proverbial deer in the headlights when he saw the handgun being pointed right at him. Never know.


*edited for obvious grammar derp*
.....

 

[Exophase]

"God's going to punish him for that, so me, I don't want to do anything to him," Mr Davis told KHOU.

You forgot to edit this part to fit your alternate version r_r

 

[SheHateMe]

lol look at Daverino schooling Geosurface.

 

[CitizenKain]

I've been on the road for the last few days, did anyone explain how Dunn felt so threatened for his life that he didn't call the police until the next day?

Seems to me it would be pretty hard to feel scared for my life, run away, and then just pencil in "Call police about shooting" in the tomorrow field of a day planner. Then again, I'm not a racist drunk who shoots at black people, so maybe that's a cultural thing.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I've been on the road for the last few days, did anyone explain how Dunn felt so threatened for his life that he didn't call the police until the next day?

Seems to me it would be pretty hard to feel scared for my life, run away, and then just pencil in "Call police about shooting" in the tomorrow field of a day planner. Then again, I'm not a racist drunk who shoots at black people, so maybe that's a cultural thing.

He actually never called the police. He just ran and was eventually apprehended at his house.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Mugs,

No and no.

The defense can not disregard evidence that is presented in court unless they can articulate why they are disregarding it. Usually just stating that the other side presented enough evidence to counter the other sides evidence is enough. Otherwise, it would be a form of jury nullification if the jury based their decisions on their feelings and not the law and evidence.

As for affirmative defense. No. Dunn just has to claim his shooting was self defense. Then do nothing. He need to present one shred of evidence that the shooting was self defense. It is up to the prosecution to present evidence that it was not self defense FIRST before presenting evidence it was something else like murder or manslaughter. If they can't overcome that burden of proof to disprove self defense, then nothing else matters. That is EXACTLY what happened in Zimmerman's case. The prosecution had no evidence that disproved self defense.

HumblePie, No and No.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...e_why_it_was_too_easy_for_him_to_get_off.html

In Florida, as in most states—even the ones that don’t have Stand Your Ground—the prosecution in a criminal case has the burden to disprove self-defense, beyond a reasonable doubt, once the defendant produces some evidence of self-defense. If the other person is dead, and there are no witnesses, as long as you tell the police, “He started it and I thought he was reaching for a gun” you have created some evidence that you acted in self-defense. And at that point, prosecutors have the burden of proof to show otherwise. Zimmerman was acquitted because the state couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight.

In fact, the jury CANNOT even be given the self defense instruction unless the DEFENDANT produces some evidence of self evidence.

The main difference between Zimmerman and Dunn is that it was easy for Zimmerman to put on evidence (through the police) of self defense that he was acting in self defense because there were no witnesses to contradict the assertion. Here, there are three others in the car. For that very same reason, I think we are going to see Mr. Dunn on the stand tomorrow trying to make a case for self defense.

 

[Corporate Thug]

He actually never called the police. He just ran and was eventually apprehended at his house.

Actually, I think he drove to a hotel, ordered a pizza, made a mixed drink for his fiance...then the next morning the fiance saw the news story and asked to be taken to their home...then they drove 100+ miles to their home where he was eventually arrested.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Actually, I think he drove to a hotel, ordered a pizza, made a mixed drink for his fiance...then the next morning the fiance saw the news story and asked to be taken to their home...then they drove 100+ miles to their home where he was eventually arrested.

Correct. I was just trying to make the point that Dunn never contacted the police.

 

[Geosurface]

Correct. I was just trying to make the point that Dunn never contacted the police.

Well apparently at the time he was apprehended he had gone to a neighbor's house who is some sort of law enforcement agent, and he had gone to that house before being contacted by police.

 

[QueBert]

So basically we know Jordan hadn't opened the door and wasn't getting out of the car because the door was never opened at all - this is a fact. But he MIGHT have been THINKING about getting out of the car, maybe...

yeah the shooting was totally justified he HAS to walk here, it's clear as day.

 

[Geosurface]

So basically we know Jordan hadn't opened the door and wasn't getting out of the car because the door was never opened at all - this is a fact.

How so?

Evidence Jordan may have opened door:

1. Michael Dunn claims he did.
2. Davis' best friend admits Jordan was operating the door handle at some point during the confrontation. Inconceivable that this may have been accompanied by at least it opening slightly?
3. Remaining lads in the Durango appear to have lied about the child locks preventing the rear passengers from opening their doors (which again was an absurd claim anyway, four teenage males out trying to get girls and 2 of them put up with being treated like children? Them lying about this indicates they knew Jordan DID start to get out of the truck.
4. Davis was the only one who hadn't yet ducked down when the bullets came in, could be because he was still working to get all the way back in the truck, and get the door closed.
5. The fact that a shooting happened at all. It would make Dunn unloading on them much easier to understand if a verbal threat was accompanied by a physical act which seemed to lend it credibility.

Evidence Jordan may not have opened the door:

1. Michael Dunn claiming it is self-serving.
2. Davis' best friend claims all he did was operate the handle, but was unable to make it open because of child locks. Though bear in mind, him even attempting to get out of the truck lends credence to him escalating with, and threatening Dunn.
3. Forensics and ballistics seem to indicate that Jordan was back to a normal seated position when he was hit.

Is there any reason it couldn't be a situation where Davis is threatening Dunn verbally, lifts up some object to make the threat more believable (tripod or gun later ditched or whatever) and starts to open the door and at least gets like one leg out onto the pavement... but as he's doing that, Dunn has now been convinced he's about to die, and is rapidly getting his pistol out, chambering a round, and bringing it back around to point toward Davis. Davis sees him doing this, and pulls his leg back in, closes the door, and once he's returned to a seated position instead of ducking, his instinct is to tap on the back of the seat in front of him and say to the driver "go go go! he's got a gun!" or something like that?

You can say "well if he pulled his leg back in and closed the door Dunn had no business still shooting!!" but I consider this silly. If Dunn was convinced at that time that there was a shotgun, and especially if he was convinced of this because Jordan Davis WANTED him to think that, then he was still in danger even if Davis had closed the door. Even moreso now that he's got his own firearm out. He'd have ever reason to think (not that there was much time for thinking) that now that he was armed, if he hesitated or took the time to think "oh hmm now he's closed the door, is he still a threat?" he might take a shotgun blast to the head. The best way to prevent that shotgun going off, was to start firing at its location.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Of course, you ignore the medical testimony today that based on the entry points of the bullets into Davis, Davis was leaning away from the window. And this testimony indicates that Davis was in the vehicle and not trying to get out as the defense and Dunn have said happened.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...l-witnesses-monday-defense-expected-wrap-case

The pictures Simons presented showed Davis’ body included several closeups of the bullet wounds. Jurors shifted uncomfortably in their seats when the first image of Davis’ body was shown, with several jurors appearing unwilling to look at the view screens.

Simons said the bullet wound to Davis’ abdomen is what killed him. The bullet entered his right side and damaged his ribs, diaphragm, liver, aorta and lungs. He was dead within minutes.

Davis was also shot twice in the leg, but those wounds would not have been fatal on their own, Simons said.

Simons also said looking at where the bullets entered Davis’ body and how they traveled through him, Davis appeared to be sitting down in the Durango and leaning away from Dunn when he was shot.

That contradicts the defense claim that Davis was out of the car moving toward Dunn, and backs up a claim by a witness to the shooting, Shawn Atkins, who testified last week that he saw Dunn get out of his car and go into a “police pose” with one knee on the ground as he fired at the Durango.

Under cross examination Strolla argued that Simons was basing her opinion that Davis was sitting in the car on assumptions, not facts. That drew strong disagreement from Simons.

Strolla complained that police and prosecutors just assumed Davis was in the car and never considered the possibility that he wasn’t. Simons said the evidence shows Davis was in the SUV, not in a standing position.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Well apparently at the time he was apprehended he had gone to a neighbor's house who is some sort of law enforcement agent, and he had gone to that house before being contacted by police.

That doesn't help his case. More time has elapsed and he's yet contacted the police.

 

[Vic]

HumblePie, No and No.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...e_why_it_was_too_easy_for_him_to_get_off.html

In Florida, as in most states—even the ones that don’t have Stand Your Ground—the prosecution in a criminal case has the burden to disprove self-defense, beyond a reasonable doubt, once the defendant produces some evidence of self-defense. If the other person is dead, and there are no witnesses, as long as you tell the police, “He started it and I thought he was reaching for a gun” you have created some evidence that you acted in self-defense. And at that point, prosecutors have the burden of proof to show otherwise. Zimmerman was acquitted because the state couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight.

In fact, the jury CANNOT even be given the self defense instruction unless the DEFENDANT produces some evidence of self evidence.

The main difference between Zimmerman and Dunn is that it was easy for Zimmerman to put on evidence (through the police) of self defense that he was acting in self defense because there were no witnesses to contradict the assertion. Here, there are three others in the car. For that very same reason, I think we are going to see Mr. Dunn on the stand tomorrow trying to make a case for self defense.

I agree. At this point, the only way the jury will get a self-defense instruction is if Dunn takes the stand, whereupon the prosecution will likely skewer him. Quite frankly, I think it's too late for Dunn to even try for a plea bargain.

This case has so few parallels to the Zimmerman case, I'm really sick of the comparisons. Say what you feel like about Zimmerman, he did everything right if you want to be able to claim self-defense. Dunn literally did everything wrong.

 

[Geosurface]

Of course, you ignore the medical testimony today that based on the entry points of the bullets into Davis, Davis was leaning away from the window. And this testimony indicates that Davis was in the vehicle and not trying to get out as the defense and Dunn have said happened.

I watched her testimony. She also said that his body may have been in somewhat different positions at the time of each shot, particularly the shot to his side as compared to the shots to his groin.

Let me make this really simple: What I'm saying is that I don't think Jordan Davis being able to get himself into a position consistent with never having started to come out of the truck by the time the bullets hit him rules out him having been starting to open the door, possibly with a leg out, at the time Dunn started grabbing for his gun.

That doesn't help his case. More time has elapsed and he's yet contacted the police.

I agree it was stupid of him not to pull over and call cops as soon as he got some distance from the convenience store. I agree it was stupid to go to bed that night without calling the local cops. No doubt.

But you don't think that if you had just done what he did, and even if you were convinced you were justified, you might not be tempted by the idea that maybe you didn't need to plunge into the lion's den of the legal system over it?

Combination of terror, shock, and extreme dread at the idea of dealing with the police, possibly being arrested, having your justification questioned, etc. Not saying it was right, but I am saying there are motivations which could lead an innocent man to still avoid cops.

 

[Vic]

Geo, your malfunction is that you think speculation can create reasonable doubt. Could've, would've, and so forth. It doesn't.

 

[Geosurface]

Geo, your malfunction is that you think speculation can create reasonable doubt. Could've, would've, and so forth. It doesn't.

Not entirely true. There's plenty of stuff in trials where the questioning of an expert (such as the medical examiner) is along the lines of "but couldn't that have also been consistent with _____?" and "can you definitively say it wasn't _______?" - that is basically speculation. Trying to muddy the waters, or a more charitable way of saying it, is trying to plant the seeds of other possibilities that are still consistent with the evidence in the jury's mind.

Whether it's effective or not is another matter. It can be done well and it can be done poorly. This comes down to what the facts themselves actually ARE and SEEM to be compatible with, and the attorney's skill in bringing those possibilities out convincingly, and in a way the jury is receptive to. And in a way that the witnesses actually have to concede could be possible. Rather than the witness showing obvious disdain at the idea because it is so palpably stupid and such a stretch.

Now, in this particular case I don't feel Corey Strolla, Dunn's defense attorney, is particularly effective. I think he's out of his depth and I think he's blowing it. I think he was handed a VERY uphill battle/tough case, but I think others could have done far better with it. One who comes to mind was Hal Urig, the pitbull like defense attorney who was one of Zimmerman's initial two before O'Mara and West took over the case.

Strolla seems inexperienced and unskilled. His wits are not sharp enough, his linguistic prowess insufficient.

For that reason and MANY others, I predict Dunn is utterly and absolutely fucked. As I have always thought. I do think there is reasonable doubt though, and there may be more of it after tomorrow's testimony. So if by some miracle he is acquitted, or there's a hung jury, I will be somewhat glad of it.

 

[Vic]

I will agree that Strollas choice of witnesses has been thus far bizarre and unhelpful to the defense.
Calling Ron Davis was a total backfire, and the choice of character witnesses managed to portray Dunn as a lonely man with no friends who has seen his son only 3 times in 15 years.
But yes, this case is an uphill battle. Just imagine how different it could have been if Dunn had called 911 instead of ordering pizza.

Something I've been looking for but can't find... did the prosecution ever offer a plea bargain? And if so, why didn't he take it?
So far, I've seen nothing to indicate reasonable doubt (or even enough evidence for a self-defense instruction, which means Dunn will have to take the stand). Quite the opposite, it looks like the prosecution is going to have a good case at premeditation and murder 1.

 

[Geosurface]

Just stumbled upon something claiming that this was the song playing in the Durango at the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDh0FcJ1atA

Mostly just linking it as a curiosity. It's pretty much what you'd expect. Only real direct relevance it has to the case is that the song does in fact contain phrases which match Dunn's claim that he briefly had difficulty discerning if what he was hearing was part of the song, them singing along with it, or something directed at him (to be clear, he was very firm on the fact that the utterances which directly led to him opening fire were unquestionably directed at him, and that Jordan Davis was saying them to him face to face.)

Something I've been looking for but can't find... did the prosecution ever offer a plea bargain? And if so, why didn't he take it?

I would seriously doubt it. I think Corey sees this as her second shot at Zimmerman by proxy. Doesn't want anything less than the maximum charge, maximum penalty.

 

[Vic]

I don't think Corey is as interested in getting back at Zimmerman by proxy as she is in restoring her public image. In fact, I don't think her involvement in this case was actually necessary.
If we have to bring up Zimmerman again, I will reiterate that he quite obviously knew the law and did everything right, while Dunn has literally done everything wrong. Dunn is what happens when you think self defense involves nothing more than getting a gun and learning how to shoot it. Or like when Biden said to shoot through the door.

Self-defense is the number 1 defense argument used by convicted murderers, and police and prosecutors are used to it. That's why I was surprised at some of the comments here. If one poster had his way with his argument, the prisons would be nearly emptied of murderers (which is the last thing he'd actually want, I'm sure).
I'm a staunch believer in gun rights and self-defense, but it has to be self-defense. Otherwise, it's murder.

Edit : OMG, I found the thread from when Biden made that comment and spidey actually defended him. "Meaning, if somebody is trying to forcefully enter your home you can shoot through the door." WTFacepalm.. Maybe if it's a glass door.

 

[classy]

San Antonio's longest is 25 yards. I just called and asked. Here is their contact information. Humble, you are a dishonest person.

San Antonio, TX | Bass Pro Shops
17907 IH-10 West
San Antonio, TX 78257
210-253-8800


http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/s...gId=10051&langId=-1&appID=94&tab=3&storeID=46

LOL

That is awesome, dude picked up the phone and called

 

[Orignal Earl]

I would love to see this shooting
Even just 2 out of 10 at 50 yards into a quarter
Dude, get out your video camera