[Techspot] Athlon x4 860K vs Pentium G3258 deathmatch

[Madpacket]

Yes no denying HT helps. Does it help enough where it justifies paying twie the price of a G3258 or are you better off skipping the i3 and getting a real quad core instead?

I think most would agree the i3's are decent processors but generally too expensive for what they offer.

 

[dark zero]

HT helps, I agree, but there is not better thing than real cores.

 

[SPBHM]

HT helps, I agree, but there is not better thing than real cores.

obviously a real core is better but some games seem to be seriously broken without the amount of CPU threads they require and HT almost looks like a real core

1GHz less and just HT basically makes a massive difference with these particular games

and it would potentially look worse if it was min and not avg

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

The G3258 @ 4.4Ghz works just fine, even combined with high end cards for most games. I agree with the article, no need to waste money on an Intel dual core, dual threaded CPU. There's not enough performance difference to warrant extra cost. It's better spent on the video card or a larger SSD.

Some people pay to get whipped by dominatrix', too..... But I wouldn't brag about being a masochist. I own a G3258 -- it's pure garbage for playing games even with a 650 Ti.... That CPU is strictly a web surfer unless the game is 2+ years old. You're just lying to yourselves that you're getting a decent gaming experience with anything less than 4 threads. The stutters and minimum frame rates are a joke. Whatev.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Minimums are the real story of playable setups, and the G3258 which I have championed in the past has really struggled in this regard in certain games, GTA V in particular. I don't believe the article featured minimums, I'd revisit it if they update it with such.

Totally agree -- as an owner of the G3258, it just barely plays modern games.... And stutters on many of them. A comparison without minimum frame rate benchmarks is clearly avoiding the topic. The i5 may cost more, but it will have a much, much longer usable life. Why waste the money on a $70 CPU for a gaming build if it won't be able to play games in 12 months? Spend the extra $60 - $120 now, instead of being forced to buy 2 chips.

 

[TheELF]

Why waste the money on a $70 CPU for a gaming build if it won't be able to play games in 12 months?

What did they announce a new console?

If you get stutter and drops, I'm sorry to say, but you just have no idea how computers work and how to setup your software.
Yes the pentium will be slow on some games,but that's about it,all that stutter and low fps is just bull from tech agnostic people.

 

[crashtech]

What did they announce a new console?

If you get stutter and drops, I'm sorry to say, but you just have no idea how computers work and how to setup your software.
Yes the pentium will be slow on some games,but that's about it,all that stutter and low fps is just bull from tech agnostic people.

That's a pretty insulting comment devoid of any context. Sure a lower end CPU can be set so that minimums will become acceptable, but at what cost? The point of PC gaming is to achieve image quality and resolution better than what is provided by consoles. If you have to turn all that down to console levels or worse, what's the point?

 

[TheELF]

You don't have to turn down graphics options,besides phisx there is almost no graphics setting that impacts the cpu.
You can see this here,there is practically no difference between low and ultra,and the same is true for almost every game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CJECa8nJ6Q

 

[crashtech]

You don't have to turn down graphics options,besides phisx there is almost no graphics setting that impacts the cpu.
You can see this here,there is practically no difference between low and ultra,and the same is true for almost every game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CJECa8nJ6Q

If fps is not acceptable, one has to reduce quality and res until acceptable framerates are achieved, regardless of where the weak link is.

 

[CriticalOne]

Snip

Finally a post that explains to most how Hyperthreading works. I swear, most PC gamers must think its a genie that rests in a CPU that provides a 30% boost in stuff... when it feels like it.

Also, I disagree with the conclusion of the article. The i3 mentioned towards the end is the i3 4370, of which I own. It base clock might only be 3.8GHz (which is high for Haswell; only the 4690K and the 4790k have higher ones) but the Hyperthreading allows for the CPU to use more resources. This is an advantage that can't be overclocked away. Pentiums nowadays are getting terrible minimums and inconsistent frame timings because the CPUs are running out of usable resources. Even though an i3 doesn't have any more physical resources outside of more L3$ on some models, HT allows for better utilize what it has.

 

[TheELF]

If fps is not acceptable, one has to reduce quality and res until acceptable framerates are achieved, regardless of where the weak link is.

Not correct.
This only works as long as the GPU is the bottleneck.
If you get 30FPS at ultra but 40FPS at high than your GPU is bottlenecking your CPU,your cpu can run the game faster than your gpu at ultra.
If your cpu runs a game at 20fps at the lowest options than it will run it at 20fps even at high or ultra,if the gpu allows for it,unless ultra incorporates physix or better meshes.

 

[crashtech]

Not correct.
This only works as long as the GPU is the bottleneck.
If you get 30FPS at ultra but 40FPS at high than your GPU is bottlenecking your CPU,your cpu can run the game faster than your gpu at ultra.
If your cpu runs a game at 20fps at the lowest options than it will run it at 20fps even at high or ultra,if the gpu allows for it,unless ultra incorporates physix or better meshes.

Not sure then why you can claim that stutter (which is a consequence of transient low frame rates or long frame times) is not inevitable on dual cores in demanding games.

 

[cbn]

Not sure then why you can claim that stutter (which is a consequence of transient low frame rates or long frame times) is not inevitable on dual cores in demanding games.

I think his point is that with Celeron G1820/R7 240 playing GTA V at 25 FPS constant @ 1024 x 768 (see post #44), even a weak CPU can power a demanding game engine.

Regarding other detail settings and resolution, apparently running a smaller video card can help keep the game from stuttering (when using weak CPU) compared to running the same detail settings and resolution with a larger card.

Basically, pairing weaker Video card with a weak CPU allows for a degree of GPU bottleneck (which acts like a FPS limiter). This smooths frame rate.

EDIT (11/19/2016) : See this post for more info on the effect of a small card (and GPU bottleneck) increasing smoothness.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think his point is that with Celeron G1820/R7 240 playing GTA V at 125 FPS constant @ 1024 x 768 (see post #44), even a weak CPU can power a demanding game engine.

Regarding other detail settings and resolution, apparently running a smaller video card can help keep the game from stuttering (when using weak CPU) compared to running the same detail settings and resolution with a larger card.

Basically, pairing weaker Video card with a weak CPU allows for a degree of GPU bottleneck (which acts like a FPS limiter). This smooths frame rate.

This hobby is starting to sound more like an Art than a Science, to get an appropriately-powerful build for budget, for specific games.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Finally a post that explains to most how Hyperthreading works.

but the Hyperthreading allows for the CPU to use more resources. This is an advantage that can't be overclocked away. Pentiums nowadays are getting terrible minimums and inconsistent frame timings because the CPUs are running out of usable resources. Even though an i3 doesn't have any more physical resources outside of more L3$ on some models, HT allows for better utilize what it has.

Here's hoping that Intel cripples Pentium CPUs less in the future. Let the i3 have newer instructions like AVX2.0, and a touch more cache, but give the Pentiums HyperThreading.

They might be heading in this direction; the Broadwell 3825U Pentium has HT. (The 3805U does not.)

http://ark.intel.com/products/86348/Intel-Pentium-Processor-3825U-2M-Cache-1_90-GHz

 

[frozentundra123456]

That's a pretty insulting comment devoid of any context. Sure a lower end CPU can be set so that minimums will become acceptable, but at what cost? The point of PC gaming is to achieve image quality and resolution better than what is provided by consoles. If you have to turn all that down to console levels or worse, what's the point?

Well, not necessarily. The idea of PC gaming is to be able to achieve an image quality and framerate acceptable to the user, plus be able to play a much wider variety of games than on console, use mods, etc. I have a PC with a HD7770, which is good enough for me, although I expect the consoles, especially PS4 will give better image quality. But even if all I used it for were gaming, I still would not trade it for a console.

 

[crashtech]

Well, not necessarily. The idea of PC gaming is to be able to achieve an image quality and framerate acceptable to the user, plus be able to play a much wider variety of games than on console, use mods, etc. I have a PC with a HD7770, which is good enough for me, although I expect the consoles, especially PS4 will give better image quality. But even if all I used it for were gaming, I still would not trade it for a console.

Fair enough, but in my mind the PC's claim to fame in regards to gaming is that it most often provides superior image quality while also being a multi-purpose tool. But if you are happy achieving less than that than good on you, I stand corrected.

 

[Yuriman]

Fact: Stutter is a real thing on Pentiums in some games, and it does not occur on CPUs with 4+ logical cores (e.g. an i3)

Fact: Overclocking a Pentium 30% does not provide nearly the same benefit in these games as having hyperthreading, which provides around 30% (average) benefit in non-game applications that scale well with core count

Fact: Lowering settings that strictly affect GPU load (e.g. resolution) will not reduce CPU load, and thus will not reduce stuttering caused by CPU limitations

Fact: There are sometimes a few graphical settings that place additional CPU load, and reducing these can make games that stutter on a Pentium playable

~

An i3 does reasonably well in modern games, and shows none of the weaknesses a Pentium shows, despite having only 2 physical cores.

 

[cbn]

Fact: Lowering settings that strictly affect GPU load (e.g. resolution) will not reduce CPU load, and thus will not reduce stuttering caused by CPU limitations

In BF4, I've noticed my OC G3258 stutter with my GTX 660, when on my R7 250X with the same detail settings it won't.

Maybe it was Mantle API helping, but it could also be that the R7 250X was creating GPU bottleneck where the GTX 660 did not (see post #63 for example).

 

[Yuriman]

nVidia's drivers are better (more) threaded, and thus generally cause improved performance on 4+ core CPUs, but have reduced performance on dual core CPUs.

 

[cbn]

nVidia's drivers are better (more) threaded, and thus generally cause improved performance on 4+ core CPUs, but have reduced performance on dual core CPUs.

GPU bottleneck resulting in more smoothness can also be see with G3258 and Nvidia cards:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-pentium-g3258-review

In the highlighted video, you can see that running the game at the high preset (that's one 'notch' down from the ultra-equivalent, very high) in combination with a GTX 760 results in a night-and-day performance differential between the i7 4790K and the Pentium. The additional fidelity in the game simulation, coupled with the immense increase in GPU set-up costs, sees the Anniversary Edition Pentium struggle horrendously to keep pace. What we're seeing here is a classic case of a lack of hardware balance: the G3258 simply can't feed the GTX 760 quickly enough to sustain a consistent frame-rate.

Now, compare and contrast with the secondary analysis, where we drop the GPU down to a far more modest GTX 750 Ti, and lower the overall quality preset to the medium level. In this case, for the most part it is the graphics card that is the bottleneck, and the overall performance level lowers the i7 advantage significantly.

And separately the effect of frame capping is mentioned:

After we completed our testing we went back to the Pentium/GTX 750 Ti combo and decided upon a different testing strategy. Using the Nvidia GPU control panel, we activated adaptive v-sync in its half-refresh mode. This is effectively 'console mode' - locking frame-rate at 30fps, and tearing should the engine drop beneath. The results are absolutely remarkable. Our budget components allow us to run at the high preset with an extremely high level of consistency.

By capping at 30fps, we give both CPU and GPU room to breathe. Almost all of the judder and stutter is gone, gameplay is consistent, and the "bang for your buck" you're getting here is simply phenomenal. In fact, we were so impressed, we continued capturing, and you'll find a makeshift 'Let's Play' further on down the page demonstrating that this set-up isn't just good for one or two levels - it's great for the entire game. In basic terms, the G3258 can't win every battle against a dedicated gaming CPU like a Core i5 or the more expensive i7, but manage your settings and expectations appropriately and you'll be stunned at some of the results you can coax from the hardware.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Fair enough, but in my mind the PC's claim to fame in regards to gaming is that it most often provides superior image quality while also being a multi-purpose tool. But if you are happy achieving less than that than good on you, I stand corrected.

Oh, I agree, one usually tries to achieve superior image quality on the PC. All I am saying is there are other reasons as well, such as cheap/free games, a wider variety of games, keyboard/mouse controls, and mods to name a few. Unfortunately, IMO, the lousy optimization of a lot of PC games makes it require very expensive hardware to achieve superior graphics and stable framerates. Perhaps that will change with DX12.

 

[VirtualLarry]

By capping at 30fps, we give both CPU and GPU room to breathe. Almost all of the judder and stutter is gone, gameplay is consistent, and the "bang for your buck" you're getting here is simply phenomenal. In fact, we were so impressed, we continued capturing, and you'll find a makeshift 'Let's Play' further on down the page demonstrating that this set-up isn't just good for one or two levels - it's great for the entire game. In basic terms, the G3258 can't win every battle against a dedicated gaming CPU like a Core i5 or the more expensive i7, but manage your settings and expectations appropriately and you'll be stunned at some of the results you can coax from the hardware.

This may be due to the Windows NT scheduler. It runs the current foreground tasks, and background ("lower priority") tasks get deferred... but only for a while (a second or two?). Then NT "boosts" the priority of the background tasks, and then they get priority for a brief while and get to run.

Implementing the frame-rate cap, can allow the foreground tasks, to not have to work 100%, so they "yield" the remainder of their scheduler timeslice, and background tasks can run.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

nVidia's drivers are better (more) threaded, and thus generally cause improved performance on 4+ core CPUs, but have reduced performance on dual core CPUs.

You can set it to single or multithreaded in the control panel, the default is autodetect, it shouldn't reduce performance. And nvidia also has an overall advantage it seems.

 

[Fox5]

GPU bottleneck resulting in more smoothness can also be see with G3258 and Nvidia cards:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-pentium-g3258-review



And separately the effect of frame capping is mentioned:

If you have to go through the extra hassle of capping the framerate to 30fps, I'd rather just go with an AMD quad core at that price point. Consistently slow, potentially faster in multi-threaded games, no stuttering issue, and fully featured as far as extensions (AVX) go.