Sushiwarrior and Ballathefeared - that will be enough or you both will no longer be allowed to post in this thread. I am tired of cleaning up your messes.
-Rvenger
-Rvenger
It is quite possible that future VESA implementation that are close
to be released have already said features built in in many current
monitors but they are not enabled by the current firmwares ,
other panels wich rely on older chips probably dont have theses
features on silicon and would be definitly incompatible for freesync,
such users would have to upgrade the panel but on the mid term it s
still less costly than adding a module a la gsync that makes a quite
expensive upgrade for something that will be inherently outmatched
quality wise by coming offerings.
Just want to point out that it is nvidia's responsibility to get the word out. I think they're pretty good at doing things such as that, already many websites have tested production kits with glowing results. There is not ONE SINGLE g-sync review that isn't absolutely glowing and positive about it - most reviewers feel that it is game changing. I do feel like most PC gamers are talking about g-sync, at least the ones with online connectivity, and anyone with at least a passing interest in tech that visits any number of websites will have heard about it.
But I don't really care to be honest. I know about it, and i'm excited about it. Stuttering, tearing, and input lag have been problems in PC gaming for basically forever and i'm stoked that a solution is out, now, to solve it. I am glad that AMD has an alternative as well. I would love for a free alternative to exist. What I don't like is their approach - it seems completely dishonest at this point to talk about free-sync when it's proof of concept and vaporware only, while nvidia has a solution that is ready to hit the ground. Nvidia did not announce g-sync until it was ready to essentially hit the ground, while AMD took the vaporware approach. Like I said....I don't like that and I don't like how AMD is marketing free-sync, because I really doubt that it will hit the market in 2014. I also take exception to the term "free sync" because using AMD's logic, if free sync is free, g-sync is also free.
Truth is, neither is free. Both gsync and freesync require a monitor with a variable refresh control board. Since desktop screens do not use eDP, they can't simply retrofit it on existing monitors. Anyway, the short of it is that i'm really excited about it. As far as getting the word out, I don't really care but i'm sure nvidia will do just that no problems. They're pretty good at communicating directly to their core PC gamer market, and they have discrete GPU sales to show for it. In fact, based on dGPU market share (65%) I would say the core PC gamer market actually prefers nvidia for the extras and features they bring to market.
Either way nvidia's version is out now if you want to do the handiwork yourself, or you can wait a couple of months to get it pre-installed via ASIC. Any resolution from 1080p to 4k. Like I said. I'm excited. Hopefully AMD can make a push to do the same, but i'm not hopeful that it will exist prior to 2015. Their history on delivering stuff on time is terrible to say the least, especially in terms of software fixes. So with AMD's history in mind it is incredibly hard to be optimistic about free-sync existing at all in 2014.
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The biggest thing to remember is Freesync is in development. They said they "think" they can mimic G-sync with triple buffering and VBlank. That clearly says they are pretty early in its development. A lot may change. Currently, it appears to only be possible to be free on existing laptop and all in one computers. Though even there, support may be severely limited.
Which leads us again to the, "we don't know enough" reality and should not be pointing fingers until we do know.
It would be great if Freesync is equal to G-sync, gets released in a timely manner, is supported by display manufacturers, and is free. I doubt all those will come true, but I hope enough of those are true to be worth it.
Which leads us again to the, "we don't know enough" reality and should not be pointing fingers until we do know.
It would be great if Freesync is equal to G-sync, gets released in a timely manner, is supported by display manufacturers, and is free. I doubt all those will come true, but I hope enough of those are true to be worth it.
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Despoiler
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All that needs to happen to the controllers for Freesync to work is that they use eDP from controller to panel. ie you have a DisplayPort path all the way through the monitor. DP handles the variable refresh because it's part of its implementation. Controllers with eDP already exist and panels with eDP exists. It's just a question of getting them together for a desktop environment. That isn't really that big of a deal because it's just a connector.
BrightCandle
Diamond Member
- Mar 15, 2007
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DRRS is an optional add on to the eDP spec, the grand majority of even embedded panels so not support it. Worse than that there is no desktop standard today that includes DRRS and it's intrinsically more difficult due to the scalars and other desktop monitor specific concerns. The DP 1.3 spec not due for another quarter is expected to have it as an optional feature, but it's far from free to implement it as true flicker free support for DRRS is going to take up space and cost on the controllers.
Right now freesync is a tech demo with zero plans for release, that is just a sad fact of its current state. In 6 months we might have knowledge of monitors with it and some better detail about how it works and how it differs, but we are very unlikely to see freesync in real products this year.
Right now freesync is a tech demo with zero plans for release, that is just a sad fact of its current state. In 6 months we might have knowledge of monitors with it and some better detail about how it works and how it differs, but we are very unlikely to see freesync in real products this year.
AMD/ATi has had access to the FPGA that is G-Sync at the very least since it was shipped to reviewers, and likely far, far beforehand.
They know exactly what G-Sync is, as I have a feeling that there are people in AMD/ATi that can read HDL from Altera FPGAs..............
And that's assuming they are illiterate and can't read the reviewer's guide sent by Nvidia to reviewers with every single G-sync review unit........
That this "FreeSync" bs is pure Vaporware is unquestionable.
They know exactly what G-Sync is, as I have a feeling that there are people in AMD/ATi that can read HDL from Altera FPGAs..............
And that's assuming they are illiterate and can't read the reviewer's guide sent by Nvidia to reviewers with every single G-sync review unit........
That this "FreeSync" bs is pure Vaporware is unquestionable.
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Source, please? Because the quote from the AMD rep seemed to indicate it required additional hardware in the display itself.
AMD speculated that some monitors "could" have eDP and "could" get a firmware upgrade. Key word: speculation. That is not based on truth. Monitor firmware is NOT user upgradeable. eDP does not exist on desktop panels. If it did , AMD would know about it and would have demo'ed this on a desktop screen. But we have what we have. It can't happen on existing panels without a retrofitted variable refresh board, or a new panel that has the same.
Now AMD's speculation aside, let's look at the truth of the matter. Nvidia's engineers are not idiots. They explored this possibility. And that truth is, it does not work on existing desktop panels. In fact, funnily enough, PCPer pressed AMD about which desktop monitors could have eDP. Their response? No response. They don't know. If AMD doesn't know, what does that tell you? Like I said. Nvidia explored this possibility. Their engineers aren't complete idiots. If it were possible without a variable refresh control board, that would have happened. But it isn't possible.
This was later confirmed by AMD's Kodira, VP of visual computing, when PCPer did a follow-up with him. The initial tech demo was handled by two AMD employees who made several false statements (maybe not intentionally, but nonetheless...) that's what happened. You cannot upgrade monitor firmware. Upgrading firmware requires an RMA to manufacturer and monitor manufacturers will not do AMD's work for them. You cannot retrofit eDP onto an existing panel. AMD's two employees also suggested that nvidia's hardware doesn't support variable refresh, which was a lie or unintentional mis-truth. But, Kodira set the truth straight when PCPer did a follow up with him - it was talked about in one of their PODCASTS last week extensively.
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Despoiler
Golden Member
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Depends on the manufacturer. I've seen people on forums who have been emailed a new monitor firmware to fix an issue.
Well that's not true because monitor firmware is not user upgrade-able. You have to physically remove the firmware and replace it. It's not like a PC where it can be done with software. So anyone that stated that lied to you. There is also no interface on the monitor itself that allows firmware to be user upgraded. To be clear: the monitor would need a specific interface directly ON the monitor for the firmware to be user upgraded. This adds to cost. Perhaps like, a flash drive directly on the monitor used only for firmware upgrades. And it would have to be used expressly and only for the purpose of firmware upgrades. But you don't ever mess with that stuff - Monitor manufacturers do not do this because users do not ever need to upgrade firmware.
This is besides the fact that firmware does not magically install a variable refresh aware control board on the monitor. Anyone that told you firmware could work magic lied to you. Anyone that told you that monitor firmware was emailed? That's actually hilarious. But they lied to you. Monitor firmware is never software upgrade-able. Never has been. Probably never will be. You have to get your super small pliers and pull the firmware chip out and replace it. Don't believe me? Call Dell or whatever monitor manufacturer of your screen is. They will tell you. I've dealt with this.
Why is monitor firmware not user upgradeable? Because it doesn't have to be upgraded. This is not something like a motherboard BIOS or a GPU BIOS. You don't mess with the monitor firmware. Ever. Except in exceptional cases. And in those exception cases, you're going to RMA the monitor. And like I said, even if you RMA for a firmware upgrade it isn't possible for firmware to magically install a variable refresh control board. I know this because I had an LG 27EA83 monitor which required a firmware upgrade. See here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1734261&page=3 - The only way it was possible was to RMA it to LG. Being that I didn't feel like doing that, I returned the monitor to amazon.com and got a refund.
I explored this with Dell as well a long time ago. You can't do monitor firmware upgrades yourself, period. Especially by email or software. But this is ignoring the main point. Firmware doesn't magically install a variable refresh control board in your monitor. It would be great if it did, though.
This is besides the fact that firmware does not magically install a variable refresh aware control board on the monitor. Anyone that told you firmware could work magic lied to you. Anyone that told you that monitor firmware was emailed? That's actually hilarious. But they lied to you. Monitor firmware is never software upgrade-able. Never has been. Probably never will be. You have to get your super small pliers and pull the firmware chip out and replace it. Don't believe me? Call Dell or whatever monitor manufacturer of your screen is. They will tell you. I've dealt with this.
Why is monitor firmware not user upgradeable? Because it doesn't have to be upgraded. This is not something like a motherboard BIOS or a GPU BIOS. You don't mess with the monitor firmware. Ever. Except in exceptional cases. And in those exception cases, you're going to RMA the monitor. And like I said, even if you RMA for a firmware upgrade it isn't possible for firmware to magically install a variable refresh control board. I know this because I had an LG 27EA83 monitor which required a firmware upgrade. See here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1734261&page=3 - The only way it was possible was to RMA it to LG. Being that I didn't feel like doing that, I returned the monitor to amazon.com and got a refund.
I explored this with Dell as well a long time ago. You can't do monitor firmware upgrades yourself, period. Especially by email or software. But this is ignoring the main point. Firmware doesn't magically install a variable refresh control board in your monitor. It would be great if it did, though.
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Despoiler
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Well I stand corrected. Thank you. That is still the exception and not the norm, though - I know i've tried to deal with this through LG and some older Dell screens. The main pre-req is still the variable refresh control board which firmware cannot change.
So the point is moot anyway. Not like firmware is going to add a board to your monitor. Nvidia's engineers explored this possibility per Tom Petersen (existing monitors). Also, AMD's entire thing about thing about firmware was speculation and they couldn't formulate an answer. PCPer pressed them for an answer. PCPer asked them if any existing desktop monitor could have eDP and get this without having to buy a new monitor. PCPer was not responded, so obviously there isn't such a monitor. Unless AMD magically finds one today.
So the point is moot anyway. Not like firmware is going to add a board to your monitor. Nvidia's engineers explored this possibility per Tom Petersen (existing monitors). Also, AMD's entire thing about thing about firmware was speculation and they couldn't formulate an answer. PCPer pressed them for an answer. PCPer asked them if any existing desktop monitor could have eDP and get this without having to buy a new monitor. PCPer was not responded, so obviously there isn't such a monitor. Unless AMD magically finds one today.
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What's the price of those 1080p monitors? $500 and up? The reason there are so many 1080p monitors used is because they are cheap. Make 1080p TN cost more (appreciably more at that) than 1200p IPS though, and that would change quickly.
The upgrade module is 200$ because it is FPGA. It will be cheaper once it is ASIC based, in other words, pre-installed for you with an ASIC Module. That is happening later in Q1.
Not like cost is an issue though is it? I've read pages and pages of people suggesting that IPS 4k panels was the way to go. And g-sync should be on those panels. Either way, g-sync is coming to IPS and 4k. Overlord was contacted by nvidia to get g-sync into their IPS panels. They're working on it right now to hopefully be released very soon. So if you want g-sync on IPS? You'll be able to get it. 1440p to 4k as well.
Anyway, IPS panels aren't that great for gaming in terms of response times and ghosting - Asus stated such at CES. I posted their statement on this a bit earlier in this thread. That said, I've gamed on 1600p panels for a while, and I still do for certain genres, it doesn't bother me. But it certainly is not as good as lightboost for competetive FPS games and many other genres. I use multi monitor and switch to lightboost for those - In those type of games, color accuracy comes second to motion fluidity.
Whenever g-sync 1440p panels are released, such as the one asus is releasing, i'll probably be switching if the reviews are good. I'm just not sure if that asus 1440p 120hz panel has lightboost. We'll see I guess.
Not like cost is an issue though is it? I've read pages and pages of people suggesting that IPS 4k panels was the way to go. And g-sync should be on those panels. Either way, g-sync is coming to IPS and 4k. Overlord was contacted by nvidia to get g-sync into their IPS panels. They're working on it right now to hopefully be released very soon. So if you want g-sync on IPS? You'll be able to get it. 1440p to 4k as well.
Anyway, IPS panels aren't that great for gaming in terms of response times and ghosting - Asus stated such at CES. I posted their statement on this a bit earlier in this thread. That said, I've gamed on 1600p panels for a while, and I still do for certain genres, it doesn't bother me. But it certainly is not as good as lightboost for competetive FPS games and many other genres. I use multi monitor and switch to lightboost for those - In those type of games, color accuracy comes second to motion fluidity.
Whenever g-sync 1440p panels are released, such as the one asus is releasing, i'll probably be switching if the reviews are good. I'm just not sure if that asus 1440p 120hz panel has lightboost. We'll see I guess.
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Despoiler
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It's DisplayPort that matters. Specifically that the board has an eDP connector and uses it to talk to the panel. DisplayPort already has vblank as part of its implementation in the 1.2 spec. The boards are not the problem. I checked out some of the vendors and from what I researched anything with Displayport 1.2 inputs has an eDP connection output to the panel. To me that says the panel is the issue because eDP was envisioned as a power saver for laptops. Desktop monitors generally use LVDS. It depends though. I've seen at least one person with a DisplayPort Korean monitor that uses eDP to the panel. That person should be good to go if AMD were to release Freesync.
Should be, could be, AMD speculated it could be possible. You are also speculating that it could be possible. PC Per asked AMD directly what monitors can work with this. No answer as of yet. When there's a list of monitors where this works, wake me up. Like I said - Petersen of nvidia and their engineers explored this possibility per interviews. And it isn't a possibility.
PCPer was also told by Koduri that monitors require new hardware. This was based on the follow-up AFTER PCper asked AMD what monitors could be "retrofitted". Connect the dots and this tells you, you'll need to buy a new monitor.
If it were usable in existing monitors:
1) AMD would have demo'ed it on a desktop screen, and
2) AMD would give a list of monitors where it can be retrofitted.
Instead what happened was PCPer asked Koduri for specifics and he told them that a new monitor with a variable refresh control board was required. If it was usable on existing monitors, AMD would have confirmed it by now. Instead, you had two AMD employees at CES who threw out quite a bit of misinformation during that tech demo.
PCPer was also told by Koduri that monitors require new hardware. This was based on the follow-up AFTER PCper asked AMD what monitors could be "retrofitted". Connect the dots and this tells you, you'll need to buy a new monitor.
If it were usable in existing monitors:
1) AMD would have demo'ed it on a desktop screen, and
2) AMD would give a list of monitors where it can be retrofitted.
Instead what happened was PCPer asked Koduri for specifics and he told them that a new monitor with a variable refresh control board was required. If it was usable on existing monitors, AMD would have confirmed it by now. Instead, you had two AMD employees at CES who threw out quite a bit of misinformation during that tech demo.
The new AMD monitors that support this, assuming they do come about, will likely be less expensive. That I do not disagree with at all. However, we still are likely to have to buy a new monitor.
Nvidia didn't have review kits when they first talked about G-sync, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Lonbjerg
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
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According to certain posters...the hardware is out there for "FreeSync" :ninja:
Skurge
Diamond Member
- Aug 17, 2009
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Freesync is at a stage earlier than when we heard about G-sync. They've made it clear that they are still figuring things out with it. That said, it still may come about in time.
Gloomy
Golden Member
- Oct 12, 2010
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