Tech jobs going, going . . .

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: calbear2000

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
A U.S. company's yearly government Social Security hit for a high tech employee is equal to the yearly salary of a worker in India. Simply amazing.

The D response is "This is sad. We need to regulate U.S. companies more and think about unionizing the tech industry." Yes, burden companies with even more costs so foreign workers are even more attractive. Oy.

The R response (if there is one) is "The creme of the crop will stay employed, others will retrain." True enough, necessity is a harsh mistress, but surely there is something government can do for American workers?

This isn't like the gradual shift from manufacturing to service jobs....this is hitting hard and faster and there's no new careers to shift into here...it's a zero-sum end-game.

As sad as it is to ask government to step in and as short-sighted as the solution may be, I think legislation to limit the high-tech outsourcing is long overdue. Too many highly skilled and educated engineers are sitting idle in Silicon Valley while there is a hiring spree in Bangalore, India by Silicon Valley companies.

What void are these engineers to fill while their jobs are being shipped out of the country?

I am now hearing from friends that they are moving to these Countries such as India and Russia to land Tech jobs.
I have confirmation of two that have already moved. Amazing, was it the intent to have the U.S. best minds shift overseas as well?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I don't think your way, Super. I always try to impart everything I can to some one I'm trying to train. Same with teaching... I want each student to emerge with everything they can get out of the class...
To be indispensable... I try to be just the opposite... show whoever sees that I want everyone to succeed... If they are better than me... go for it.. I never stifle a view... in my office or in the board room... One cannot be the victim of the assassin if one freely offers the step...
I also see when others are acting for the common good versus the good of the one... but, this is how I see..

I want everyone to succeed too. Just not by replacing me. I think it's very cynical to ask an employee to train his replacement, unless the employee is voluntarily leaving or retiring. Basically that says, we need your skills, but we aren't willing to pay you for them, so why don't you just give them to this guy, so we'll have your skills without having to pay you. My take is, you get what you pay for.

If you worked in my company and I asked you to train X person.. I'd expect you to impart all that you could and to go out of you way to insure that X became as good or better than you.. I'd expect this... as I'd expect you to expect me to be thankfull and respectfull of your contribution to the company...

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I don't think your way, Super. I always try to impart everything I can to some one I'm trying to train. Same with teaching... I want each student to emerge with everything they can get out of the class...
To be indispensable... I try to be just the opposite... show whoever sees that I want everyone to succeed... If they are better than me... go for it.. I never stifle a view... in my office or in the board room... One cannot be the victim of the assassin if one freely offers the step...
I also see when others are acting for the common good versus the good of the one... but, this is how I see..

I want everyone to succeed too. Just not by replacing me. I think it's very cynical to ask an employee to train his replacement, unless the employee is voluntarily leaving or retiring. Basically that says, we need your skills, but we aren't willing to pay you for them, so why don't you just give them to this guy, so we'll have your skills without having to pay you. My take is, you get what you pay for.

If you worked in my company and I asked you to train X person.. I'd expect you to impart all that you could and to go out of you way to insure that X became as good or better than you.. I'd expect this... as I'd expect you to expect me to be thankfull and respectfull of your contribution to the company...

And that's fine, and I have no problem in transferring enough information to get a needed task done. But at the same time, if I get a feeling that I am being asked to train my own replacement, I'll make it seem like I taught him all I know, until I am gone and sh!t hits the fan, an he'll say "oh-oh, he didn't mention this"

 

[Martin]

I think one thing we're all missing is the fact that our universities (canada, US, the west in general) are much better than india, russian and chinese ones.

I was in Bulgaria (which would be pretty close in many respects Russia) several weeks ago and two of my friends there were just graduaing from MEI, which is BG's premier technical institute. Since they're in a similar discipline to mine (comp eng) I talked to them a lot about what they were studying and doing. One thing that really struck me is that upon graduation they have no practical experience whatsoever. Everything hardware related that they do is all based on theory, since the institute can't afford things like FPGA or other equipment. Now, things might be different in China's or India's top universities, but I highly doubt their education even approaches the education you can get at a good canadian or american university.

What I'm trying to say is that until they start producing students at the same level as the West, they will mostly likely have only the bottom feeder jobs.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I don't think your way, Super. I always try to impart everything I can to some one I'm trying to train. Same with teaching... I want each student to emerge with everything they can get out of the class...
To be indispensable... I try to be just the opposite... show whoever sees that I want everyone to succeed... If they are better than me... go for it.. I never stifle a view... in my office or in the board room... One cannot be the victim of the assassin if one freely offers the step...
I also see when others are acting for the common good versus the good of the one... but, this is how I see..

I want everyone to succeed too. Just not by replacing me. I think it's very cynical to ask an employee to train his replacement, unless the employee is voluntarily leaving or retiring. Basically that says, we need your skills, but we aren't willing to pay you for them, so why don't you just give them to this guy, so we'll have your skills without having to pay you. My take is, you get what you pay for.

If you worked in my company and I asked you to train X person.. I'd expect you to impart all that you could and to go out of you way to insure that X became as good or better than you.. I'd expect this... as I'd expect you to expect me to be thankfull and respectfull of your contribution to the company...

And that's fine, and I have no problem in transferring enough information to get a needed task done. But at the same time, if I get a feeling that I am being asked to train my own replacement, I'll make it seem like I taught him all I know, until I am gone and sh!t hits the fan, an he'll say "oh-oh, he didn't mention this"

I see your point, now!... You work in an enviornment that I'd not work in (in the example) because I don't operate that way.. I've always trained my replacements so it would be foreign for me to hold back... They succeed I succeed.. I am responsible for their achievement... or lack thereof.. I actually chose the Controller of European Operations in Ireland who was less qualified but worked harder to learn... bugged the hell out of me for input.. he got the nod .... I had to argue with my boss but got my way... and he turned out the best choice... and he stayed with the company despite Apple trying to lure him away. ... Digital Machines Ireland Ltd... never had a better CFO!

edit.. I speak in the present... this was in the '80s and I no longer work in this arena...

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: calbear2000

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
A U.S. company's yearly government Social Security hit for a high tech employee is equal to the yearly salary of a worker in India. Simply amazing.

The D response is "This is sad. We need to regulate U.S. companies more and think about unionizing the tech industry." Yes, burden companies with even more costs so foreign workers are even more attractive. Oy.

The R response (if there is one) is "The creme of the crop will stay employed, others will retrain." True enough, necessity is a harsh mistress, but surely there is something government can do for American workers?

This isn't like the gradual shift from manufacturing to service jobs....this is hitting hard and faster and there's no new careers to shift into here...it's a zero-sum end-game.

As sad as it is to ask government to step in and as short-sighted as the solution may be, I think legislation to limit the high-tech outsourcing is long overdue. Too many highly skilled and educated engineers are sitting idle in Silicon Valley while there is a hiring spree in Bangalore, India by Silicon Valley companies.

What void are these engineers to fill while their jobs are being shipped out of the country?

I am now hearing from friends that they are moving to these Countries such as India and Russia to land Tech jobs.
I have confirmation of two that have already moved. Amazing, was it the intent to have the U.S. best minds shift overseas as well?

You have got to be kidding :Q The people who moved were probably natives to that respective country to begin with. I don't think India even has any legislation in place for foreign workers

 

[dmcowen674]

IBM to shift all White Collar Computer Industry Jobs Overseas

"450,000 U.S. computer industry jobs could be transferred overseas in the next 12 years, representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs"

That must be the last 8 percent anyway.

 

[shuan24]

Cant spell wEEd without a double E!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
I think one thing we're all missing is the fact that our universities (canada, US, the west in general) are much better than india, russian and chinese ones.

I was in Bulgaria (which would be pretty close in many respects Russia) several weeks ago and two of my friends there were just graduaing from MEI, which is BG's premier technical institute. Since they're in a similar discipline to mine (comp eng) I talked to them a lot about what they were studying and doing. One thing that really struck me is that upon graduation they have no practical experience whatsoever. Everything hardware related that they do is all based on theory, since the institute can't afford things like FPGA or other equipment. Now, things might be different in China's or India's top universities, but I highly doubt their education even approaches the education you can get at a good canadian or american university.

What I'm trying to say is that until they start producing students at the same level as the West, they will mostly likely have only the bottom feeder jobs.

ITTs in india smokes any US university at the undergraduate level. You information is a wholeistic one, with the monies our universities get they can attact these outstanding foriegn students at the GRADUATE LEVEL to make ours seems superior overall because they contribute overwhelming to discovery and journals. Take a walk though MITs engineering and science graduate programs, hardy any "americans" because their UG preparation is so poor and they can hardly compete with a foreigner, who hardy speaks english even, for marticulation.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
I think one thing we're all missing is the fact that our universities (canada, US, the west in general) are much better than india, russian and chinese ones.

I was in Bulgaria (which would be pretty close in many respects Russia) several weeks ago and two of my friends there were just graduaing from MEI, which is BG's premier technical institute. Since they're in a similar discipline to mine (comp eng) I talked to them a lot about what they were studying and doing. One thing that really struck me is that upon graduation they have no practical experience whatsoever. Everything hardware related that they do is all based on theory, since the institute can't afford things like FPGA or other equipment. Now, things might be different in China's or India's top universities, but I highly doubt their education even approaches the education you can get at a good canadian or american university.

What I'm trying to say is that until they start producing students at the same level as the West, they will mostly likely have only the bottom feeder jobs.

Maybe this is the case in computer related subjects - but I can say that the Bulgarian research fellows I know are every bit as intelligent and educated as the rest of us.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Fencer128]

ITTs in india smokes any US university at the undergraduate level. You information is a wholeistic one, with the monies our universities get they can attact these outstanding foriegn students at the GRADUATE LEVEL to make ours seems superior overall because they contribute overwhelming to discovery and journals. Take a walk though MITs engineering and science graduate programs, hardy any "americans" because their UG preparation is so poor and they can hardly compete with a foreigner, who hardy speaks english even, for marticulation.

I have to agree with this too. In my experience, many (but not all) first degree graduates from US universities going into graduate courses here are less well equipped for the work than equivalent students from Europe/Asia.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[alchemize]

Maybe it is time to recognize that specific skills in IT are like being a union auto worker 20 years ago. I work with a ton of Indian techies. Almost none of them are project managers or team leads. Expand your skills or be left behind.

 

[lozina]

Simply: Survival of the fittest

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Maybe it is time to recognize that specific skills in IT are like being a union auto worker 20 years ago. I work with a ton of Indian techies. Almost none of them are project managers or team leads. Expand your skills or be left behind.

You're right in that you need to have more than just "geek" ability in order to progress today - especially towards any kind of management.

Being a techie alone just doesn't cut it anymore.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Fencer128

Originally posted by: alchemize
Maybe it is time to recognize that specific skills in IT are like being a union auto worker 20 years ago. I work with a ton of Indian techies. Almost none of them are project managers or team leads. Expand your skills or be left behind.

You're right in that you need to have more than just "geek" ability in order to progress today - especially towards any kind of management.

Being a techie alone just doesn't cut it anymore.

Cheers,

Andy

Problem is Mc Donalds managers only pay about 35K...Without a semi-skilled workforce in this country (auto workers, construction, funiture makers, PC techs, assemblers etc) the manager jobs will go bye bye too. Then no one can afford to eat McDonalds prime beef and look for them to scale back too.

Expand your skills to sitting at home is more like it. People love to think these industrial and internet booms, where labor is in demand, comes along every 5-10 years. It does'nt. What is happening is slow steady erosion of jobs unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled to offshore. The only way to stop is at a personel level. I buy only american made goods since the american tax payer pays me. If that means spending $1800 on a Wolf range instead of a $500 one Amana from mexico great.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
I think one thing we're all missing is the fact that our universities (canada, US, the west in general) are much better than india, russian and chinese ones.

I was in Bulgaria (which would be pretty close in many respects Russia) several weeks ago and two of my friends there were just graduaing from MEI, which is BG's premier technical institute. Since they're in a similar discipline to mine (comp eng) I talked to them a lot about what they were studying and doing. One thing that really struck me is that upon graduation they have no practical experience whatsoever. Everything hardware related that they do is all based on theory, since the institute can't afford things like FPGA or other equipment. Now, things might be different in China's or India's top universities, but I highly doubt their education even approaches the education you can get at a good canadian or american university.

What I'm trying to say is that until they start producing students at the same level as the West, they will mostly likely have only the bottom feeder jobs.

ITTs in india smokes any US university at the undergraduate level. You information is a wholeistic one, with the monies our universities get they can attact these outstanding foriegn students at the GRADUATE LEVEL to make ours seems superior overall because they contribute overwhelming to discovery and journals. Take a walk though MITs engineering and science graduate programs, hardy any "americans" because their UG preparation is so poor and they can hardly compete with a foreigner, who hardy speaks english even, for marticulation.

But are ITT/ShanghaiU/Moscow State U the rule or the exception? Just because India produces 350 000 engineers every year, doesn't mean it produces 350 000 quality engineers every year.

Also, I am fully aware of white underrepresentation, but I believe that is because of the way they view education. Too many white families simply don't put the emphasis on education the way a lot of asian/eastern european ones do.

 

[calbear2000]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
I think one thing we're all missing is the fact that our universities (canada, US, the west in general) are much better than india, russian and chinese ones.

I was in Bulgaria (which would be pretty close in many respects Russia) several weeks ago and two of my friends there were just graduaing from MEI, which is BG's premier technical institute. Since they're in a similar discipline to mine (comp eng) I talked to them a lot about what they were studying and doing. One thing that really struck me is that upon graduation they have no practical experience whatsoever. Everything hardware related that they do is all based on theory, since the institute can't afford things like FPGA or other equipment. Now, things might be different in China's or India's top universities, but I highly doubt their education even approaches the education you can get at a good canadian or american university.

What I'm trying to say is that until they start producing students at the same level as the West, they will mostly likely have only the bottom feeder jobs.

ITTs in india smokes any US university at the undergraduate level. You information is a wholeistic one, with the monies our universities get they can attact these outstanding foriegn students at the GRADUATE LEVEL to make ours seems superior overall because they contribute overwhelming to discovery and journals. Take a walk though MITs engineering and science graduate programs, hardy any "americans" because their UG preparation is so poor and they can hardly compete with a foreigner, who hardy speaks english even, for marticulation.

I suppose you mean IIT's, not ITT's. I would disagree that they are better than "any US university at the undergraduate level" especially with strong undergraduate engineering programs at the likes of MIT, Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, UT Austin, Stanford, etc.

This is from someone who's known plenty of graduate students that came from IIT's to attend Berkeley engineering and found a much tougher curriculum here.

Also, IIT's represent the "Ivy League of India" - only the top students in a country with a billion people get to attend. Comparing an IIT to our average college in the States will obviously make the IIT shine.

I do agree that MIT's graduate engineering is void of "Americans" But that also testifies to the superiority of our engineering schools - the best students from around the world elect our best schools over theirs. My Indian coworkers all have graduate degrees from American universities because a graduate degree from India does not lend as much credibility to their education.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Maybe it is time to recognize that specific skills in IT are like being a union auto worker 20 years ago. I work with a ton of Indian techies. Almost none of them are project managers or team leads. Expand your skills or be left behind.

I'm in two minds on this issue.. You say expand.. I assume this means the person is qualified technically in a field but must learn the broader aspects of that field or become more technically adroit in the field (ex.. a licensed Engineer getting a Master or Science in the field or the graduate engineer getting a Ph.D.) versus the Licensed Engineer getting an MBA or other Management Oriented Graduate Degree so to understand the People aspects of Business as well as the Business aspects..

My experience is that there is a move toward a more narrow approach... more specific... less broad. The People and Business end handled by the Business Oriented... the Eli with the Harvard or Wharton MBA and the DBA or Ph.D. Economist... I've seen the fields looking for specific type Engineers or Scientists..

What size Co... are you referring to and how broad is the product offering.. ?

 

[Zebo]

Hehe ya IIT..Not ITT for gods sakes. NO....

The report I reference was from a time magazine article a few years back on these foriegn schools. Basically the administrators and graduate admissions commitees at top US grad schools were complaining our UG curriculum has experianced grade inflation, even at the top schools you reference, and the foriegn undergrads they felt to be much more qualified cadidates for admission for this reason as well as better overall preparation especially in mathmatics. Also they had fortune 100s HR people saying they were really impressed by the maturity and skills of these UG's compared to ours. Anyway my point was the one thing that gives our universities thier continued dominace is being able to draw from very qualified foriegn students...which would mean thier universities are quite good, even superior, in preparing them for graduate programs. Also, why they come here is simple; jobs, money and opportunity with high paying US corps which is another thing giving our insititutions continued credibility vs. Shanghai university.

 

[dmcowen674]

10% of U.S. tech jobs may move overseas

Gartner Inc., the world's biggest high-tech forecasting firm, said in a report entitled "U.S. Offshore Outsourcing: Structural Changes, Big Impact" that 500,000 of the 10.3 million U.S. technology jobs could move just in 2003 and 2004.

Just last week, software maker Siebel Systems Inc. (Nasdaq:SEBL - news) of San Mateo, California said it would cut 9 percent of its work force, or 490 jobs, and planned to move some operations overseas.

The mounting job losses are heating up as a political issue, with bills put forward by legislators in five U.S. states that would require workers hired under state contracts be American citizens or fill a special niche citizens cannot fill.

at least 500,000 jobs will be moved.

----------------------------------------------------

The United States, just one big giant RAS.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
My take on the matter is this: I am an engineer. If all engineering jobs move overseas, or there are so many engineers that you can't make a descent living at it, I'll go learn something else, and do that. I think if you can graduate from an electrical engineering school, and do engineering work, you can pretty much do anything else intellectual. You are going to tell me that an engineer who does complicated calculations, simulations, statistical analysis, and design won't be able to do an accountant's or a business consultant's job? The moral is, it's dog eat dog world, so you gotta stay flexible. Engineering trains the brain to see a problem, gather information, and figure out a solution. Whether the problem is electrical, economic, business, service, or technological does not make much difference.

Sounds good in theory. But lets say there are no more electrical engineering jobs. You then decide to go into accounting. First you have to learn the in and outs of accounting then once you are done you will be thrust into a job market where you are starting with zero experience under your belt. Now you are competing against people who graduated with accounting degrees and even those grads just out of school may have experience in the form internships and such. Then the people hiring you look at your resume and think you are just getting the job until the electrical engineering jobs return. They pass you over.

If all the electrical engineering jobs were gone why would any U.S. students bother studying the subject.

Of course thats not likely to happen but I think the outsourcing of all these software development jobs ansd such will have a detrimental effect in the future. A lot of talented developers will never get into the field if there is no opportunity for them here.