Tech jobs going, going . . .

[BaliBabyDoc]

CNN
JOBS REPORT
Roughly 27,000 technology jobs moved overseas in 2000, according to a November study by Forrester Research. It predicts that number will mushroom to 472,000 by 2015 if companies continue to farm out computer work at today's frenzied pace.

We intend to invest in the fastest-growing markets, and those are India, Russia and China -- that's the long-term plan.
-- Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy

Cost-conscious executives have been shifting lower-level tech jobs in data entry and systems support abroad to cheaper labor markets for more than a decade. But now they are exporting highly paid, highly skilled positions in software development -- jobs that have been considered intrinsic to Silicon Valley and tech hubs such as Seattle; Boston; and Austin, Texas.

People in India are very ambitious and very well-educated, but they're also ready to invest in a company, and they have less of a tendency to move out of the company.
-- Jean-Marc Hauducoeur, human resources firm Convergys

Many U.S. corporate executives say they simply can't afford to overlook foreign computer workers -- especially in India, which produces roughly 350,000 college engineering graduates annually.

 

[SuperTool]

My take on the matter is this: I am an engineer. If all engineering jobs move overseas, or there are so many engineers that you can't make a descent living at it, I'll go learn something else, and do that. I think if you can graduate from an electrical engineering school, and do engineering work, you can pretty much do anything else intellectual. You are going to tell me that an engineer who does complicated calculations, simulations, statistical analysis, and design won't be able to do an accountant's or a business consultant's job? The moral is, it's dog eat dog world, so you gotta stay flexible. Engineering trains the brain to see a problem, gather information, and figure out a solution. Whether the problem is electrical, economic, business, service, or technological does not make much difference.

 

[Moonbeam]

This is why corporate America is Internationalizing. The US is toast as far as they are concerned. The elite will always have control. Smart people don't get attached to a stupid concept like place. You go where the money is. That's is all that matters. The trick is not to let the fools catch on and ruin everything with their vote.

 

[LunarRay]

We aven't a clue... not nary a clue...

 

[MonkeyK]

Now if we could only move those executive positions overseas. Maybe we wouldn't have to pay CEOs so much and they would actually stay with the company too.

 

[HappyPuppy]

It appears that our success will also lead to our demise.

 

[ITJunkie]

the ironic thing is that America is the largest consumer market in the world and if we can't make a decent living how are we to pay for the products that Corporate America is creating overseas. It looks like shooting ones self in ones own foot to me.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: ITJunkie
the ironic thing is that America is the largest consumer market in the world and if we can't make a decent living how are we to pay for the products that Corporate America is creating overseas. It looks like shooting ones self in ones own foot to me.

Credit my good man! Give the poor credit cards and they'll buy your products even while unemployed!

 

[jjones]

Where's the incentive to keep these jobs at home?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
My take on the matter is this: I am an engineer. If all engineering jobs move overseas, or there are so many engineers that you can't make a descent living at it, I'll go learn something else, and do that. I think if you can graduate from an electrical engineering school, and do engineering work, you can pretty much do anything else intellectual. You are going to tell me that an engineer who does complicated calculations, simulations, statistical analysis, and design won't be able to do an accountant's or a business consultant's job? The moral is, it's dog eat dog world, so you gotta stay flexible. Engineering trains the brain to see a problem, gather information, and figure out a solution. Whether the problem is electrical, economic, business, service, or technological does not make much difference.

Personally I am hoping that there'll still be good engineering jobs by the time I graduate (2007 if I take a year off for Coop). While I could do other jobs, engineering seems like the best one for me.

Perhaps I should avoid Reality altogerther and stick to Academia my whole life? Tunured Professor ain't such a bad job after all

 

[MonstaThrilla]

I think its a bit ridiculous to think America is somehow losing its position as global leader. If the b!tch programming and manufacturing jobs go to India and Russia, let them. I'd rather be working on cutting edge things and innovating anyway. That's what has kept this country strong, and that's what we should keep trying to do: push the envelope. The third world countries do not have that capability, and most likely won't for a long long time.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
My take on the matter is this: I am an engineer. If all engineering jobs move overseas, or there are so many engineers that you can't make a descent living at it, I'll go learn something else, and do that. I think if you can graduate from an electrical engineering school, and do engineering work, you can pretty much do anything else intellectual. You are going to tell me that an engineer who does complicated calculations, simulations, statistical analysis, and design won't be able to do an accountant's or a business consultant's job? The moral is, it's dog eat dog world, so you gotta stay flexible. Engineering trains the brain to see a problem, gather information, and figure out a solution. Whether the problem is electrical, economic, business, service, or technological does not make much difference.

We are an Engineering (Electrical and Mechanical) and Construction Firm and I have no doubt the engineers could have done Accounting or what ever else they put their mind to... the problem is, as you say, it is a dog eat dog world... It used to be any MBA was a sign of upper management potential... today an MBA from where is the question... and !!!! the accountant is not earning at all what the starting engineer is.. not our here, anyhow.. A principal engineer makes near what the CFO or Controller makes..and is a much more valuable player... Education beyond MBA or Master degree is for teaching and not for practical business or technical use. In small companies, at least...and to my personal knowledge, there are so many technical resumes incoming that the temptation is to offer less - as much as 5 to 8 thousand a year less than two years ago... to recent grads... (20 to 24 yrs old) just too many in the market.
I actually don't function in the engineering side any more... it recently split off... and I only work one day a week... CFO/Controller but, I assure you the niche company is the survivor in this market... Power Generation/CNG/LNG/Co-Generation and the like is big now a days as well as some other disciplines... but, not like it use to be... least ways to my eyes... Maybe I need glasses or a new refraction... so I'll defer to other more informed wisdom..
We need all our manufacturing back... and with it the jobs that once were there for everyone will reemerge... isolate a bit.. a lot.. and use tax cuts more directed to getting that position back. NAFTA su*ks... Nothing short of rebirth in the manufacturing sector will pull us out of the pit we keep digging deeper... me thinks..

 

[JellyBaby]

A U.S. company's yearly government Social Security hit for a high tech employee is equal to the yearly salary of a worker in India. Simply amazing.

The D response is "This is sad. We need to regulate U.S. companies more and think about unionizing the tech industry." Yes, burden companies with even more costs so foreign workers are even more attractive. Oy.

The R response (if there is one) is "The creme of the crop will stay employed, others will retrain." True enough, necessity is a harsh mistress, but surely there is something government can do for American workers?

This isn't like the gradual shift from manufacturing to service jobs....this is hitting hard and faster and there's no new careers to shift into here...it's a zero-sum end-game.

 

[calbear2000]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
A U.S. company's yearly government Social Security hit for a high tech employee is equal to the yearly salary of a worker in India. Simply amazing.

The D response is "This is sad. We need to regulate U.S. companies more and think about unionizing the tech industry." Yes, burden companies with even more costs so foreign workers are even more attractive. Oy.

The R response (if there is one) is "The creme of the crop will stay employed, others will retrain." True enough, necessity is a harsh mistress, but surely there is something government can do for American workers?

This isn't like the gradual shift from manufacturing to service jobs....this is hitting hard and faster and there's no new careers to shift into here...it's a zero-sum end-game.

As sad as it is to ask government to step in and as short-sighted as the solution may be, I think legislation to limit the high-tech outsourcing is long overdue. Too many highly skilled and educated engineers are sitting idle in Silicon Valley while there is a hiring spree in Bangalore, India by Silicon Valley companies.

What void are these engineers to fill while their jobs are being shipped out of the country?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
My take on the matter is this: I am an engineer. If all engineering jobs move overseas, or there are so many engineers that you can't make a descent living at it, I'll go learn something else, and do that. I think if you can graduate from an electrical engineering school, and do engineering work, you can pretty much do anything else intellectual. You are going to tell me that an engineer who does complicated calculations, simulations, statistical analysis, and design won't be able to do an accountant's or a business consultant's job? The moral is, it's dog eat dog world, so you gotta stay flexible. Engineering trains the brain to see a problem, gather information, and figure out a solution. Whether the problem is electrical, economic, business, service, or technological does not make much difference.

excellent post.

 

[JellyBaby]

calbear2000, that introduces other issues and what right does the government have to tell private enterprise who can and who can't be hired in the first place? But these issues are never argued on base principles so let's skip head...

Compling with regulation is a cost to business. A business may endure it, if it can afford compliance and/or make up the difference elsewhere or if there is a benefit, direct or indirect, to that regulation.

If you tell Microsoft it can only hire X amount of workers abroad, MS's profits are affected as is its competitive ability relative to other software companies elsewhere who can take advantage of the less expensive labor in China and Inda. At some point MS may decide to completely move abroad to escape excess regulation. If it doesn't do that it will likely increase software prices to make up the difference. Is society on the whole better off in this case?

Plus if you limit outsourcing in private enterprise should you not limit government as well? I've read stories about how government also outsources positions to countries like India. End that and government's cost rises, too.

I believe Microsoft uses a lot of Chinese knowledge workers who got their Ph.Ds right here in the States at the expense of the American taxpayer. Rather ironic eh?

Wild ideas: allow U.S. businesses to be more competitive by reducing regulation, the corporate tax burden, etc. Dealing with unchecked immigration's effect on wages and public cost should help, too. You could also look at why American employees cost so much to business (unemployment compensation, social security, etc.).

Things will return to balance in the future. My fear is the wrong type of governmental decisions could lengthen the transition and potentially screw other things up. They have a knack for doing that.

 

[IGBT]

Captians of American industry are doing all they can to move intellectual work out of the US. There's better educated people else where that work cheaper. Public education in the US is in free fall collapse. Liberal administrators have done a fine job..haven't they??

 

[freegeeks]

It's a two way street. The company I work for used to shift or all coding to India. While they have excellent programmers in India we needed a team just to decipher everything.
We closed our India dept.

It didn't work out for us because of the high-tech stuf we use.

 

[Martin]

Here is a excellent political cartoon on the subject
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/print.asp?id=855

if only things were like that in reality...

 

[SuperTool]

It's pretty obvious. My uncle used to have a dot com startup which went belly up, but anyways. He hired some guys in Russia to do the programming. Not only did they work for something like 400 dollars a month, they were incredibly hard workers.
He would call them at 2 pm our time, which was 1am their time, and they would still be there working, even though they started in the morning. The programs these guys wrote were pretty good, or even great, and they wrote them fast.
That was at the time when over here, IT people (not real programmers) were making 100K.
If I started a business with my own hard earned money, I would outsource it too. So I don't blame the business owners.
Where does that leave US labor? I don't know. You gotta learn some very unique and valuable skills, and be shrewd about sharing them. If your company asks you to train someone, don't tell them all you know.
Leave out just enough that the company can't do it without you. Make it so that the money the company saves by replacing you will pale in comparison to what it will cost them when a person with a crucial skill is not there when they need it.
Your knowledge is not the company's property, it's yours. While you can't use their trade secrets, there is nothing forcing you to transfer your insights and knowledge to someone who is going to cost you your job.
Save some money to weather the storms.

 

[SuperTool]

I guess what I am trying to say is:
If you don't want to be replaced, make yourself irreplaceable.

 

[LunarRay]

I don't think your way, Super. I always try to impart everything I can to some one I'm trying to train. Same with teaching... I want each student to emerge with everything they can get out of the class...
To be indispensable... I try to be just the opposite... show whoever sees that I want everyone to succeed... If they are better than me... go for it.. I never stifle a view... in my office or in the board room... One cannot be the victim of the assassin if one freely offers the step...
I also see when others are acting for the common good versus the good of the one... but, this is how I see..

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Master Yoda . . .

 

[ReiAyanami]

think of it this way, if their stupid nations become smarter, it'll benefit the whole world. and put pressure on our stupid kids to shape up, reforming the education system and other political buzzwords blah blah ect...

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I don't think your way, Super. I always try to impart everything I can to some one I'm trying to train. Same with teaching... I want each student to emerge with everything they can get out of the class...
To be indispensable... I try to be just the opposite... show whoever sees that I want everyone to succeed... If they are better than me... go for it.. I never stifle a view... in my office or in the board room... One cannot be the victim of the assassin if one freely offers the step...
I also see when others are acting for the common good versus the good of the one... but, this is how I see..

I want everyone to succeed too. Just not by replacing me. I think it's very cynical to ask an employee to train his replacement, unless the employee is voluntarily leaving or retiring. Basically that says, we need your skills, but we aren't willing to pay you for them, so why don't you just give them to this guy, so we'll have your skills without having to pay you. My take is, you get what you pay for.