Tearing at higher than spec refresh: what is actually happening?

velis

Senior member
Jul 28, 2005
600
14
81
GTX 970 + Dell U2711

The other day I tried to raise the refresh to see how high it might go. Managed 70Hz, 75 was too high.
However, when playing games, there was absolutely insane tearing. VSYNC of course on, FRAPS showed that the card can easily pump 70FPS.

So, what exactly did I see there?
Did the monitor just take 70Hz input and then apply it to 60Hz constant refresh?
 

velis

Senior member
Jul 28, 2005
600
14
81
Unlocked the DVI frequency limit with that NV utility, then created custom resolution in NV control panel. Without unlocking frequency limit I could only achieve 16 bit @ 70 Hz.
Monitor properly reports 70Hz input.
 

CakeMonster

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2012
1,662
843
136
I have a 3011 and a 2711, tried that trick myself. The U3011 refused to play ball at all, the U2711 showed an image but behaved like it was displaying 30hz or something, crazy mouse lag/choppiness even in windows.

TLDR: Yes, you're running it too high, not worth your time troubleshooting.
 

digitaldurandal

Golden Member
Dec 3, 2009
1,828
0
76
I am not confident that changing the DVI frequency limit will change the actual refresh rate of the monitor. My guess is the monitor is seeing 70 fps but displaying 60, or per CakeMonster maybe only 30 even. There is a page where you can test your fps but I forget what it is.
 

velis

Senior member
Jul 28, 2005
600
14
81
Of course I did that already.

I just wondered what might the monitor be "thinking". There must be some special logic in there that uses some other internal refresh rate when input is out of spec. I expected the monitor to either work at given refresh rate or refuse to (like it does with 80Hz+), not to start inventing some other tricks.
 

redzo

Senior member
Nov 21, 2007
547
5
81
Even if it displays static images properly it may drop frames like hell,

From my understating, you've basically overclocked your LCD by increasing the refresh rate above specs.
It may be that the monitor is dropping frames internally at an outrageous rate when going above its native 60hz specs.
I gues that some LCDs might overclock without issues, some might not, depending on your luck.

http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping

I think that this might become handy in your testing if you own a camera and some proper patience. You could compare the results between spec operation(60hz) and out of spec operation(70hz).
 

.vodka

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2014
1,203
1,538
136
I'd go with redzo's explanation. Your monitor can't handle the increased refresh rate and is dropping frames to compensate. A quick google search shows a lot of U2711 owners experiencing the same...

Some go along just fine without dropping frames (usually up to 75 hz then refuse to show an image, etc), some don't.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,559
248
106
This article may also be helpful:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/speccontent.htm

On a CRT monitor, the refresh rate relates to how often the whole screen is refreshed by a cathode ray gun. This is fired down the screen at a certain speed which is determined by the vertical frequency set in your graphics card. If the refresh rate is too low, this can result in flickering of the screen and is often reported to lead to head aches and eye strain. On a CRT, a refresh rate of 72Hz is deemed to be "flicker free", but generally, the higher the refresh rate the better.

TFT screens do not refresh in the same way as a CRT screen does, where the image is redrawn at a certain rate. A TFT monitor will only support refresh rates coming from your graphics card between 60Hz and 75Hz (ignoring modern 120Hz monitors for a moment). Anything outside this will result in a "signal out of range" message or similar. The “recommended” refresh rate for a TFT is 60hz, a value which would be difficult to use on a CRT. The “maximum” refresh rate of a TFT is 75hz, but sometimes if you are using a DVI connection the refresh is capped at 60hz anyway and it will not allow you to select a higher refresh rate from your graphics card.

As a TFT is a static image, and each pixel refreshes independently, setting the TFT at 60hz does not cause the same problems as it would on a CRT. There is no cathode ray gun redrawing the image as a whole on a TFT. You will not get flicker, which is the main reason for having a high refresh rate on a CRT in the first place. The reason that 60Hz is recommended by all the manufacturers is that it is related to the vertical frequency that TFT panels run at. Some more detailed data sheets for the panels themselves clearly show that the operating vertical frequency is between about 56 and 64Hz, and that the panels 'typically' run at 60Hz (see the LG.Philips LM230W02 datasheet for instance - page 11). If you decide to run your refresh rate from your graphics card above the recommended 60Hz it will work fine, but the interface chip on the monitor will be in charge of scaling the frequency down to 60Hz anyway. The reason that some DVI connections are capped at 60Hz in Windows is that some DVI interface chips cannot scale the frequency properly and so the option to run above 60Hz is disabled. You may find that the screen looks better at 60Hz as you are avoiding the need for the interface chip to scale the resolution. Try it on both and see which you prefer, the monitor can handle either in many cases.

One thing which some people are concerned about is the frames per second (fps) which their games can display. This is related to the refresh rate of your screen and graphics card. There is an option for your graphics card to enable a feature called Vsync which synchronizes the frame rate of your graphics card with the operating frequency of your graphics card (i.e. the refresh rate). Without vsync on, the graphics card is not limited in it's frame rate output and so will just output as many frames as it can. This can often result in graphical anomalies including 'tearing' of the image where the screen and graphics card are out of sync and the picture appears mixed as the monitor tries to keep up with the demanding frame rate from the card. To avoid this annoying symptom, vsync needs to be enabled.

With vsync on, the frame rate that your graphics card is determined by the refresh rate you have set in Windows. Capping the refresh rate at 60hz in your display settings limits your graphics card to only output 60fps. If you set the refresh at 75hz then the card is outputting 75fps. What is actually displayed on the monitor might be a different matter though. You can measure the internal frame rate of your system using programs like 'fraps' and also some games report your frame rate. Remember, the frequency of the monitor is still being scaled down to 60Hz by the interface chip. If you are worried about frame rate in fast games then it is a good idea to try the refresh rate at 75Hz and see if you think it looks better. A lot of it could be based on placebo effect though, and if you have a decent graphics card which can handle a constant 60fps it might look just as good as if it were outputting 75fps. See which one you prefer. In some cases forcing a higher refresh rate (even above 75Hz) is possible, but this can have mixed results. In many cases frames are dropped anyway and so it makes no difference to the end result.

One other thing to note for Overdrive (RTC) enabled monitors is that running a TFT outside of it's recommended refresh rate can sometimes lead to a deterioration in the performance of this technology and the panel responsiveness is adversely effected! Read the details here.