Teacher Tenure Ruled Unconstitutional

[Thebobo]

Tenure is completely against the ideal of egalitarianism and meritocracy. It's an anachronism. The only real problem is establishing performance metrics when student outcomes are non-deterministic.

To many big words....

 

[werepossum]

this is the first I'm even hearing of this case, but it sounds really interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/us/california-teacher-tenure-laws-ruled-unconstitutional.html

I come from a family of teachers, and as much as I wanted to support teachers in general, I've heard so many stories from them about shitty teachers being dumped in bad schools or "rubber rooms" because they couldn't fire them.

Holy crap! If this stands up, it's huge.

Well, the problem is that school budgets routinely get cut quite aggressively, and from an administrative standpoint, it makes sense to get rid of the teachers who have been there longest; they're drawing the largest salary, so they're the obvious choice. School administrators don't really see "better" teachers as having a higher ROI, so it's a good cost-cutting measure to replace your highly-compensated teachers with younger teachers who will work for less money. This obviously has a detrimental effect on the quality of the education, but it rarely costs administrators their jobs. The problem is that tenure doesn't just protect good teachers who cost a lot of money, it protects bad teachers who cost a lot of money; it's not merit-based, it's experience-based, and more experience doesn't automatically make someone better.

Well said. Also, I've seen principals bring in friends and lovers, displacing teachers who aren't friends or lovers. There is some value to tenure, but the pendulum has gone way to far toward the teacher. We need accountability. Problem there is as a local teacher pointed out, these kids can't read and you're going to evaluate me based on house well I teach them chemistry? Pretty much any accountability is going to have to start at first grade and migrate upwards with the kids, and great care will have to be taken to avoid the Atlanta system where teachers and administration conspire to defeat the testing.

 

[werepossum]

Ummmm, tenure is not protection from getting fired, tenure is the ability to get a hearing to show why you should be fired.

A union can do that without tenure.

 

[boomerang]

I come from a family of teachers, and as much as I wanted to support teachers in general, I've heard so many stories from them about shitty teachers being dumped in bad schools or "rubber rooms" because they couldn't fire them.

It's not a teacher problem per se, it's a union problem. Teachers should not be blamed for a problem created by the union and perpetuated by the union. I would take a very educated guess that the majority of teachers will be much happier in their work to have uninterested slackers removed from the equation. Keeping them is demoralizing to the teachers that love their profession and which strive to do their best.

I was a UAW member for 30 years. It really pisses you off to have a co-worker spend his days in the john reading cowboy books while you're sweating your ass off on the factory floor doing your best. Everybody in your job classification gets the same pay whether they contribute or not. The real losers eventually get fired. In the next contract negotiations, the union not only gets them back to work, they get them back pay too for the months or years they've been gone. After many, many years of seeing that shit going on you give up as a defense mechanism. You can't take any pride in your work, because you get nothing for the effort. They doubled down on us allowing people that couldn't pass an aptitude test get into the trades so that they would have the "equal opportunity". When your mind is not geared towards mechanical work, you do poorly at it. But it's all good in the eyes of the union because those of you that are competent, that will work, can just fix the fuck-ups of the guy that both can't and won't.

 

[fskimospy]

Looks like people are shredding the legal reasoning behind this decision; it's likely to be struck down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...like-the-result-but-the-opinion-has-problems/

 

[crashtech]

I was a UAW member for 30 years. It really pisses you off to have a co-worker spend his days in the john reading cowboy books while you're sweating your ass off on the factory floor doing your best. Everybody in your job classification gets the same pay whether they contribute or not. The real losers eventually get fired. In the next contract negotiations, the union not only gets them back to work, they get them back pay too for the months or years they've been gone. After many, many years of seeing that shit going on you give up as a defense mechanism. You can't take any pride in your work, because you get nothing for the effort. They doubled down on us allowing people that couldn't pass an aptitude test get into the trades so that they would have the "equal opportunity". When your mind is not geared towards mechanical work, you do poorly at it. But it's all good in the eyes of the union because those of you that are competent, that will work, can just fix the fuck-ups of the guy that both can't and won't.

Interesting report from someone who has been there, thanks.

 

[kage69]

Good, I've always had a problem with tenure. Known a few professors who, while definitely smart, suck at the actual teaching part and delegate the majority of what they do to TAs anyway. I think there is a tendency for profs to rest on their laurels once they achieve tenure, and I'm naturally against anything that prevents an institution from replacing someone that needs to go with another person who is qualified and more motivated.

 

[fskimospy]

Good, I've always had a problem with tenure. Known a few professors who, while definitely smart, suck at the actual teaching part and delegate the majority of what they do to TAs anyway. I think there is a tendency for profs to rest on their laurels once they achieve tenure, and I'm naturally against anything that prevents an institution from replacing someone that needs to go with another person who is qualified and more motivated.

This doesn't affect college tenure.

 

[crashtech]

It's the problem with any privilege, it will be abused, which makes it tougher for the people who need it, the ones for whom it is intended. Tenure was intended to protect academic freedom; it seems to me that the cases where it does that are outnumbered by the cases where it is abused.

 

[kage69]

This doesn't affect college tenure.

Well booo hissss

 

[Linflas]

Well, the problem is that school budgets routinely get cut quite aggressively, and from an administrative standpoint, it makes sense to get rid of the teachers who have been there longest; they're drawing the largest salary, so they're the obvious choice. School administrators don't really see "better" teachers as having a higher ROI, so it's a good cost-cutting measure to replace your highly-compensated teachers with younger teachers who will work for less money. This obviously has a detrimental effect on the quality of the education, but it rarely costs administrators their jobs. The problem is that tenure doesn't just protect good teachers who cost a lot of money, it protects bad teachers who cost a lot of money; it's not merit-based, it's experience-based, and more experience doesn't automatically make someone better.

That is not entirely true. Given that the Federal camel's nose is now deep inside the tent most principals and districts are most concerned about meeting AYP numbers to keep the Federal dollars flowing which means they will tend to keep the "best" teachers to meet those numbers each year. I put best in quotes as in this context best really means teachers able to teach whatever is required to pass yearly testing (what is called SOL testing in Virginia) which is a large part of meeting the AYP numbers.

 

[boomerang]

Interesting report from someone who has been there, thanks.

I have stories that when I tell them people flat out do not believe they could be true.