'Teacher of the Year' gets pink slip amid budget cuts

[cybrsage]

Completely not the point. Let me try this again.

The point you miss is that schools get their money from property tax. When the value of property drops, the amount of money from property tax drops as well. Also, the poor do not pay property taxes since they do not own property - so they do not even pay into the education system.

The only way to fix it is to create a seperate school tax that everyone has to pay, not say humans have to stop acting like humans.

 

[Abraxas]

The point you miss is that schools get their money from property tax. When the value of property drops, the amount of money from property tax drops as well. Also, the poor do not pay property taxes since they do not own property - so they do not even pay into the education system.

The only way to fix it is to create a seperate school tax that everyone has to pay, not say humans have to stop acting like humans.

First, we can and do pay for schools with a lot of different taxes. In my neck of the woods sales tax options commonly go towards schools. To say we need a brand new tax to funnel money into schools is incorrect, there is nothing stopping us from using income tax, estate tax, or any other tax of our choosing to improve our schools.

Secondly, nothing I said had anything to do with humans having to stop acting like humans. Michal, take notes. A strawman is when you challenge a fictitious position as cybrsage has just done, not merely stating a position you disagree with.

Third, in addition to this being a strawman, it is also a red herring because none of my remarks prior to this post had anything to do with how we finance schools, my remarks were about how we as a society prioritize education and when we spend enormous sums of money on frivolous crap when our schools need the money.

 

[cybrsage]

You blathered on and on about how it is bad that humans are acting like humans, as if that was the problem and therefor the solution is to make humans stop acting like humans.

What is your solution then, if that is not it?

 

[DCal430]

With property tax going down do to drop in home values, some areas are forced add on flat or square feet based property taxes, the town near me added a $500 a year flat property tax , it isn't based on the home values. Increasing the property tax that is based on home values is ILLEGAL in California due to prop 13.

 

[Abraxas]

You blathered on and on about how it is bad that humans are acting like humans, as if that was the problem and therefor the solution is to make humans stop acting like humans.

What is your solution then, if that is not it?

I said nothing about humans acting like humans, that you read that from my post only serves to demonstrate why more money must be spent on our schools, or on efforts to stop people from dropping out of them at the very least.

As for a solution, I never said had one. We need to reorient our cultural values and rewards towards education and knowledge, celebrate the Einsteins and the Hawkings instead of the Trumps and the Hiltons (or the Romneys). Culturally we need to emphasize the role of parents in education, and arrange ourselves economically to allow for parents to have sufficient time and resources to raise their children. That probably means things like living wages so parents aren't working two jobs at a time, vacation time so they can spend time with them, single payer healthcare to allow employers to pay more and ensure access to healthcare facilities (not to mention free up the portion of school budgets allotted to health insurance). It may mean more taxes on things like luxuries or perhaps even imports from China if we are prepared to fight back in the trade war being waged upon us.

If you want to discuss the practicality of my ideas, fine, I suppose we can do that. However, my point was then and remains now to focus on nailing down the problem.

 

[dmcowen674]

'Teacher of the Year' gets pink slip amid budget cuts

This should put a "hop" in every Rightwingers step today!

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...year-gets-pink-slip-amid-budget-cuts#comments

This is America, we don't need no stinkin teachers, only preachers.

 

[michal1980]

You have no idea what "strawman" actually means, do you?

I do, maybe you should read up on them.

 

[cybrsage]

I said nothing about humans acting like humans, that you read that from my post only serves to demonstrate why more money must be spent on our schools, or on efforts to stop people from dropping out of them at the very least.

Yes you did, twice. Here is the second one in its entirety:

Completely not the point. Let me try this again.

Americans spend countless billions on frivolous, almost useless objects. Christmas decorations were the one I picked because I found a hard number for the dollar amount spent but it is far from the only one. Billions are also spent on things like clothes for dogs and lawn gnomes and kitchen utensils that don't work. As an aggregate society, we have decided the place to put these resources is not building our infrastructure, is not educating future generations of innovators and builders, is not in tending to our downtrodden or our sick we have decided it belongs in China exchange for cheap imports built by children in conditions resembling slavery.

We are a society of empty homes and homeless veterans, extravagant wealth and generational poverty, of vacant factories and legions of unemployed. We are a deeply and fundamentally broken people.

You are decrying humans for acting like humans.

 

[MovingTarget]

oh look. We are spending more every year. Yet the left keeps complaining about cuts

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

What do you expect? Unlike most industrialized nations (especially in europe), we are experiencing a net population growth and have for quite some time. There are also many other factors that boost our expendatures per child, including bussing and sports programs....things that other nations do not have to the extent we do. You can't even compare utility costs or salaries directly. A per-student dollar for dollar comparison is not a useful comparison.

What is useful is the comparison of math/science scores. That should tell you all we need to know. Little Johnny can't add, but he is in a math class with 36 other students and a teacher who majored in history. But lets reduce staff/benefits even further and blame unions! Lets pour insane resources into the school's football program! Lets bus students 30minutes farther away to another school instead of the one in walking distance!

There are MANY improvements that can be made in our school systems. Simply taking a hacksaw to the budget is highly counterproductive.

 

[michal1980]

What do you expect? Unlike most industrialized nations (especially in europe), we are experiencing a net population growth and have for quite some time. There are also many other factors that boost our expendatures per child, including bussing and sports programs....things that other nations do not have to the extent we do. You can't even compare utility costs or salaries directly. A per-student dollar for dollar comparison is not a useful comparison.

What is useful is the comparison of math/science scores. That should tell you all we need to know. Little Johnny can't add, but he is in a math class with 36 other students and a teacher who majored in history. But lets reduce staff/benefits even further and blame unions! Lets pour insane resources into the school's football program! Lets bus students 30minutes farther away to another school instead of the one in walking distance!

There are MANY improvements that can be made in our school systems. Simply taking a hacksaw to the budget is highly counterproductive.

If only we took a hack saw. We spend more per student, then most of the industrail world. Yet generally get worse results.

http://mat.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

So its not a money problem.

 

[*kjm]

How do you know I love teachers?

Just do us all a favor and get one real job for once in your life…. Yep you live in Madison and have a Masters and have no real grip on reality so I’m calling you a teacher…. Prove me wrong with links!
This crap happened in Milwaukee two years ago and there was nothing that could be done. If I remember it was a she and she didn’t have the seniority to keep her job but was teacher of the year.
I don’t respond to you all the time but you just make my guts churn with what you think you are owed but then you show your true intelligence in your posts and you should be working on a checkout line at the local grocery store….. Am I right,,,, you’re a teacher???????

 

[Abraxas]

Yes you did, twice. Here is the second one in its entirety:

You are decrying humans for acting like humans.

I could take a page out of your book here, and simply point out you are a liar for quoting me on something and lying about what it says, and simply ask you to find a quote that contains the words you say it contains (like you are doing with Ayn Rand a couple threads over), however, I won't. I won't principally because that would be encouraging you to post again and I can't have that.

We'll do this a different way, if it is humans acting like humans, and not a feature of our cultural and social system, surely this trait must be present in every single human society of wealth in the world. You made the claim all humans act this way, or the great majority of them, you back it up. If you cannot show that this is a human problem and not a cultural one, please shut your useless noise hole. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and departure from this thread.

 

[Abraxas]

I do, maybe you should read up on them.

No need, I know what they are. It is when you misrepresent a position and then attack it, using the misrepresented version of an argument's defeat to claim victory or at least inflict damage on the original position.

Given that the post you quoted claiming to be a strawman wasn't even an attack on any position whatsoever, it could not possibly have been a strawman. Given that you claim to know what they are, how could you make such an obvious and ridiculous error?

If only we took a hack saw. We spend more per student, then most of the industrail world. Yet generally get worse results.

http://mat.usc.edu/u-s-education-ver...d-infographic/

So its not a money problem.

I like that infographic, but there are some things that need to be carefully considered when using it. For instance, in US educational expenditures, we include things like health insurance for teachers as part of their benefits and pay. In no other country worth comparing ourselves to would they do the same as every other developed country has a single payer system or tiered system which means it is paid for by tax dollars for everyone. From some research I was doing last night, health insurance for public school teachers runs into the billions of dollars. Things like dedicated school bus systems aren't shared between all nations, many relying largely on public transportation instead. Put another way, a lot of education expenses as reported by the US are handled by other countries as general public and infrastructure expenses. Something worth considering with straight dollars to dollars comparisons.

 

[Bowfinger]

Just do us all a favor and get one real job for once in your life…. Yep you live in Madison and have a Masters and have no real grip on reality so I’m calling you a teacher…. Prove me wrong with links!
This crap happened in Milwaukee two years ago and there was nothing that could be done. If I remember it was a she and she didn’t have the seniority to keep her job but was teacher of the year.
I don’t respond to you all the time but you just make my guts churn with what you think you are owed but then you show your true intelligence in your posts and you should be working on a checkout line at the local grocery store….. Am I right,,,, you’re a teacher???????

The rest of your childish rant notwithstanding, you are reasonably close on the teacher story. I expect you heard about it from Walker; he used it during his campaign.

The teacher was Megan Sampson. She received an "Outstanding First Year Teacher" award, but was then one of 482 educators in the district who got layoff notices at the end of the year (12% overall RIF, all with three years or less experience). She was offered her job back before the next school year began, but she declined because she'd found a new position already.

Link: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117731088.html#!page=13&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst

 

[Bowfinger]

I like that infographic, but there are some things that need to be carefully considered when using it. For instance, in US educational expenditures, we include things like health insurance for teachers as part of their benefits and pay. In no other country worth comparing ourselves to would they do the same as every other developed country has a single payer system or tiered system which means it is paid for by tax dollars for everyone. From some research I was doing last night, health insurance for public school teachers runs into the billions of dollars. Things like dedicated school bus systems aren't shared between all nations, many relying largely on public transportation instead. Put another way, a lot of education expenses as reported by the US are handled by other countries as general public and infrastructure expenses. Something worth considering with straight dollars to dollars comparisons.

Yes, MovingTarget raised similar points in the very comment to which Michal replied. Michal completely ignored this, of course. Another example of his allergy to facts and reason. Perhaps you will have better luck.

 

[DCal430]

No need, I know what they are. It is when you misrepresent a position and then attack it, using the misrepresented version of an argument's defeat to claim victory or at least inflict damage on the original position.

Given that the post you quoted claiming to be a strawman wasn't even an attack on any position whatsoever, it could not possibly have been a strawman. Given that you claim to know what they are, how could you make such an obvious and ridiculous error?

I like that infographic, but there are some things that need to be carefully considered when using it. For instance, in US educational expenditures, we include things like health insurance for teachers as part of their benefits and pay. In no other country worth comparing ourselves to would they do the same as every other developed country has a single payer system or tiered system which means it is paid for by tax dollars for everyone. From some research I was doing last night, health insurance for public school teachers runs into the billions of dollars. Things like dedicated school bus systems aren't shared between all nations, many relying largely on public transportation instead. Put another way, a lot of education expenses as reported by the US are handled by other countries as general public and infrastructure expenses. Something worth considering with straight dollars to dollars comparisons.

Most school districts here no longer have a school bus system, including the one in the article. The only buses that run are for the special kids.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Most school districts here no longer have a school bus system, including the one in the article. The only buses that run are for the special kids.

School districts outside of mass transist areas provide buses for students, usually based on distance from school.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

 

[HeXen]

Lets save money. how about we let the TV and internets educate our kids...since that's mostly what goes on anyway.

 

[cybrsage]

I could take a page out of your book here, and simply point out you are a liar for quoting me on something and lying about what it says, and simply ask you to find a quote that contains the words you say it contains (like you are doing with Ayn Rand a couple threads over), however, I won't. I won't principally because that would be encouraging you to post again and I can't have that.

He does not even bother to show Rand saying anything at all. I highly doubt she said the poor should have their bodies abused and then be killed, but he claims she did. He then tries to shift the conversation, which fails because I will not let him off that easy.

In this instance, I quoted you saying a medium sized rant about how bad humans are. My interpretation is that you are decrying humans for being humans. If you are not saying what my interpretation of your rant was saying, then what was your point in it all? What were you trying to say but failed to actually get across with all those words? Clarify what you failed to say with your rant.

We'll do this a different way, if it is humans acting like humans, and not a feature of our cultural and social system, surely this trait must be present in every single human society of wealth in the world. You made the claim all humans act this way, or the great majority of them, you back it up. If you cannot show that this is a human problem and not a cultural one, please shut your useless noise hole. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and departure from this thread.

Here you go. If you would rather, I can find a list of all the major cultures of the planet and list that. It would accomplish the same thing. Is that what you want?

 

[Abraxas]

Most school districts here no longer have a school bus system, including the one in the article. The only buses that run are for the special kids.

Sure, and every district is going to be different, with their own unique set of expenditures, my point overall was that a lot of expenses we file under education are covered under other areas of the budget in other countries. Do you disagree with that?

 

[michal1980]

Sure, and every district is going to be different, with their own unique set of expenditures, my point overall was that a lot of expenses we file under education are covered under other areas of the budget in other countries. Do you disagree with that?

even so. Its not like we are spending little on education. or even cutting.

 

[Abraxas]

He does not even bother to show Rand saying anything at all. I highly doubt she said the poor should have their bodies abused and then be killed, but he claims she did. He then tries to shift the conversation, which fails because I will not let him off that easy.

Off topic, I won't address here.

In this instance, I quoted you saying a medium sized rant about how bad humans are.

No, I didn't. You are lying. You know that even though insults are fair game now, intentionally posting inaccurate information is not, right?

My interpretation is that you are decrying humans for being humans. If you are not saying what my interpretation of your rant was saying, then what was your point in it all? What were you trying to say but failed to actually get across with all those words? Clarify what you failed to say with your rant.

My point was very clear, and anyone who can read English with any proficiency can get it. In fact, let me copy and paste the summary I so helpfully included in my post that brings it all together, quite nicely.

"What is most telling about this situation isn't about unions, it isn't about Republicans, it about the massively fucked up set of priorities held by the American people."

You can keep saying all humans do this, but that makes you an idiot. A lot of societies do not have these problems, or, at the very least, not to the degree we do. Your refusal to acknowledge that does not make it not true.

Here you go. If you would rather, I can find a list of all the major cultures of the planet and list that. It would accomplish the same thing. Is that what you want?

Please do. Then I can point out which ones aren't failing in math and science and examine their cultural attitudes towards education.

I will note, for the record, you have completely failed to substantiate any of your claims and are still completely misrepresenting mine.

 

[Ninjahedge]

I do, maybe you should read up on them.

1. If you are trying to prove that you know something better than another, it helps when you use correct grammar. "Read up on it".

2. A "strawman" is basically constructing a different issue that may sound similar, but has little, if anything to do with the actual issue. Exaggeration and extenuation of the subject is one way. The creator then attacks that rather than the original point. Examples: Giving vaccinations is being a murderer since you kill living organisms (incorrect on several points).

3. FYI - A red herring is a euphemism meaning a misleading "scent" dragged across the trail to confuse the "hounds" following it.

m80, try to be aware of the things that people are talking about. "Red Herring" took me 15 seconds on google to confirm before I posted here.

You could do the same.

 

[OutHouse]

Most school districts here no longer have a school bus system, including the one in the article. The only buses that run are for the special kids.

??? most school districts? you know this how? its funny how i see a crap load of school buses on the road during the school year.

 

[cybrsage]

You can keep saying all humans do this, but that makes you an idiot. A lot of societies do not have these problems, or, at the very least, not to the degree we do. Your refusal to acknowledge that does not make it not true.

If they have the same problem, but to a lesser degree, then it is a lie to say they do not have the same problem.

Show a culture (which still exists, obviously) that does not have this problem. You claim it exists, show it.