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Tax Slavery Articles

I could go into the factual errors and logical errors in those websites. But why bother. Anyone who believes all those claims apply to you obviously wouldn't listen to reason.

Edit: Alright I couldn't resist.
Quote 1: "the average lifetime tax rate someone who is 20 can expect to pay is 84 percent!"
Quote 2: "Once you add in all of these hidden taxes and costs, the total you pay in taxes is now over 50 percent of your income."
Quote 3: "It's even worse if your income is above average or you live in a high-tax state like New York or California. In those states, over 40 percent of your income is deducted from your paycheck".

Hmm if I live in a high-tax state do I pay 84%, or 50%, or 40%?
 


<< I could go into the factual errors and logical errors in those websites. But why bother. Anyone who believes all those claims apply to you obviously wouldn't listen to reason.

Edit: Alright I couldn't resist.
Quote 1: "the average lifetime tax rate someone who is 20 can expect to pay is 84 percent!"
Quote 2: "Once you add in all of these hidden taxes and costs, the total you pay in taxes is now over 50 percent of your income."
Quote 3: "It's even worse if your income is above average or you live in a high-tax state like New York or California. In those states, over 40 percent of your income is deducted from your paycheck".

Hmm if I live in a high-tax state do I pay 84%, or 50%, or 40%? >>




40% deducted from paycheck, then taxes for property, cars, ect.
 
Well, obviously, if you're 20 with an income and living in NY or CA: You pay 84% + 50% +40%=174% of your income. Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed.
 


<<

<< I could go into the factual errors and logical errors in those websites. But why bother. Anyone who believes all those claims apply to you obviously wouldn't listen to reason.

Edit: Alright I couldn't resist.
Quote 1: "the average lifetime tax rate someone who is 20 can expect to pay is 84 percent!"
Quote 2: "Once you add in all of these hidden taxes and costs, the total you pay in taxes is now over 50 percent of your income."
Quote 3: "It's even worse if your income is above average or you live in a high-tax state like New York or California. In those states, over 40 percent of your income is deducted from your paycheck".

Hmm if I live in a high-tax state do I pay 84%, or 50%, or 40%? >>




40% deducted from paycheck, then taxes for property, cars, ect. >>



Exactly. It's not that hard to understand. Reread it objectively, rather than trying to find faults.
 


<< 40% deducted from paycheck, then taxes for property, cars, ect. >>


I was just pointing out the most obvious mistakes. Suppose you make $12,000 per year for your entire life. In all states and including the federal government that would put you in the 0% tax bracket. (Oops did Mr. Ruddy forget tax deductions and credits in his numbers)?

Or the comparison to medieval serfs. Did he forget that in addition to the crop tax, many serfs were also charged land tax, and could only sell their excess crop to the landowner at rediculously low prices. That meant that many serfs lost money the longer they worked - eventually forcing them into bankruptcy (and then debtors prison). I doubt that you can find many cases today of abuses that match that level.

What about social security, medicare, and other benefits that the government will pay you back? Did Mr. Ruddy forget to put this in his 84% lifetime tax number?

"such as the cost of hiring accountants and bookkeepers" - did he forget these were tax deductable?
"dozens of hidden taxes, which nearly double the price of everything you buy" - the worst sales tax is about 10%. The highest possible corporate tax is about 30% (and with corporate deductions and no company ever pays that much). 10%+30% doesn't ever add to 50% in any normal product. Plus food and other goods often don't count as sales tax.
"Consider that every product and service you buy is offered to you by a business that has to pay corporate taxes." Wrong not every business pays corporate taxes.
"Estate and inheritance taxes kick in after a citizen dies" This is true, but only a minisule number of people actually pay that tax. I think it is roughly 5000 families per year, but Mr. Ruddy makes it seem like everyone pays it.
"serfs [were prisoned] if they didn't pay whatever was demanded...average American considers himself free, yet we pay even more in taxes than Medieval serfs" - I think a person who pays more tax is more free than someone in jail (but that is just my opinion).
"someone earning $50,000 a year will soon have only about $8,000 - obviously an impossible situation". Ok many people live just fine on $50,000 per year so Mr Ruddy is dead wrong that living at $50,000 per year is impossible.

Need I go on with his incorrect or misleading statements.
 


<<

<< 40% deducted from paycheck, then taxes for property, cars, ect. >>


I was just pointing out the most obvious mistakes. Suppose you make $12,000 per year for your entire life. In all states and including the federal government that would put you in the 0% tax bracket. (Oops did Mr. Ruddy forget tax deductions and credits in his numbers)? >>



This is dishonest. The average 20 year old will make far more than 12,000 a year.



<< Or the comparison to medieval serfs. Did he forget that in addition to the crop tax, many serfs were also charged land tax, and could only sell their excess crop to the landowner at rediculously low prices. That meant that many serfs lost money the longer they worked - eventually forcing them into bankruptcy (and then debtors prison). I doubt that you can find many cases today of abuses that match that level. >>



No, it's not that bad, but I don't think you want to target someone for exaggerating a bit. Look at your previous example.
rolleye.gif




<< What about social security, medicare, and other benefits that the government will pay you back? Did Mr. Ruddy forget to put this in his 84% lifetime tax number? >>



What about the SS that will be taxed if your retirement savings pay a dividend that is more than the minimum (most will)? As for medicare, it's a joke. Anyone who has made anything of themselves will use private insurance and doctors that charge far more than medicare allows.



<< "such as the cost of hiring accountants and bookkeepers" - did he forget these were tax deductable? >>



Tax deductable does not mean tax rebate. It means you can act as if you never made that money, not that the government refunds anything near what you spent. If you're in the top tax bracket, those deductions are nearly meaningless. You need far bigger deductions to bring you into a lower bracket.



<< "dozens of hidden taxes, which nearly double the price of everything you buy" - the worst sales tax is about 10%. The highest possible corporate tax is about 30% (and with corporate deductions and no company ever pays that much). 10%+30% doesn't ever add to 50% in any normal product. Plus food and other goods often don't count as sales tax. >>



Most states are charging a sales tax on food and clothing now. And our goods are taxed repeatedly. The company that mines or produces the raw material is taxed, and passes that cost along to the manufacturer, who is taxed and passes both taxes on to the distributer who is taxed and passes all tax costs on to the retailer, who is also taxed, and passes all tax costs onto the consumer. All corporate/business taxes are paid by the consumer.



<< "Consider that every product and service you buy is offered to you by a business that has to pay corporate taxes." Wrong not every business pays corporate taxes. >>



Most do. Some get tax breaks but very few get complete tax amnesty.



<< "Estate and inheritance taxes kick in after a citizen dies" This is true, but only a minisule number of people actually pay that tax. I think it is roughly 5000 families per year, but Mr. Ruddy makes it seem like everyone pays it.
"serfs [were prisoned] if they didn't pay whatever was demanded...average American considers himself free, yet we pay even more in taxes than Medieval serfs" - I think a person who pays more tax is more free than someone in jail (but that is just my opinion). >>



You completely missed his point.



<< "someone earning $50,000 a year will soon have only about $8,000 - obviously an impossible situation". Ok many people live just fine on $50,000 per year so Mr Ruddy is dead wrong that living at $50,000 per year is impossible. >>



Again, you completely missed his point. It's not that people can't live on 50,000 a year gross. It's that people making 50,000 gross shouldn't have their real income reduced so dramatically.

Face it, you are incapable of reading this with objectivity. It's not his individual points you disagree with, it's the whole idea that we pay too much in taxes. This skews your objectivity, and therefore your ability to read this and understand his points
 
Wrong. I do disagree with his points - some were complete lies as you showed yourself:
Mr. Ruddy: "Consider that every product and service you buy is offered to you by a business that has to pay corporate taxes."
AmusedOne: "Most do. Some get tax breaks but very few get complete tax amnesty."
Ok if every product and service had to pay corporate taxes then how can some get tax breaks?

Take food for example. I can go to a farmers market and buy my produce. I guarantee that there isn't sales tax in my state (and most states) plus I guarantee that the farmer didn't pay 30% corporate tax. Anyways that is 30% on the profits not 30% on the total price. So if the profits are slim (like in the small recession we are in) then the corporate tax is far far below 30% of the total price. Everyone buys food - and it has nowhere near a 50% tax for anyone.

What about self employed people or small businesses - they aren't paying corporate taxes. They have their own personal income tax, but not corporate taxes.

I'm just pointing out one of Mr Ruddy's complete and obvious lies. I disagree with his lies - not with his points.

I just wish he didn't use numbers from people making $1+ million per year. My extreme $12000 number occurs far more often than his multi-millionaire examples. His extremes only apply to a small, small fraction of people (AMT, estate, etc). Then he makes it seem like this extreme applies to everyone when it doesn't. My extreme applies to about the lower 10% of the population - they pay 0% income tax but Mr Ruddy makes it seem like they too pay 84% tax. This is misleading at the least.
 


<< Wrong. I do disagree with his points - some were complete lies as you showed yourself:
Mr. Ruddy: "Consider that every product and service you buy is offered to you by a business that has to pay corporate taxes."
AmusedOne: "Most do. Some get tax breaks but very few get complete tax amnesty."
Ok if every product and service had to pay corporate taxes then how can some get tax breaks? >>



You do understand that a tax break is not a complete absence of taxes. It;s usually just a lowered tax rate. You do know what "amnesty" means, don't you?



<< Take food for example. I can go to a farmers market and buy my produce. I guarantee that there isn't sales tax in my state (and most states) plus I guarantee that the farmer didn't pay 30% corporate tax. Anyways that is 30% on the profits not 30% on the total price. So if the profits are slim (like in the small recession we are in) then the corporate tax is far far below 30% of the total price. Everyone buys food - and it has nowhere near a 50% tax for anyone. >>



OK, only 18 states have sales taxes on food. However, the farmer is not the only man in the chain. The farmer sells to a distributer, who sells to a manufacturer, who sells to another distributer, who sells to a retailer, who sells to you. ALL these people pay taxes and ALL these people pass those costs on until you end up paying all these taxes.



<< What about self employed people or small businesses - they aren't paying corporate taxes. They have their own personal income tax, but not corporate taxes. >>



Oh, that makes it better, doesn't it? 😕 Businesses pay taxes too. They also have to pay for permits and license fees.



<< I'm just pointing out one of Mr Ruddy's complete and obvious lies. I disagree with his lies - not with his points.

I just wish he didn't use numbers from people making $1+ million per year. My extreme $12000 number occurs far more often than his multi-millionaire examples. His extremes only apply to a small, small fraction of people (AMT, estate, etc). Then he makes it seem like this extreme applies to everyone when it doesn't. My extreme applies to about the lower 10% of the population - they pay 0% income tax but Mr Ruddy makes it seem like they too pay 84% tax. This is misleading at the least. >>



He's not. I make a lot less than a million a year, and my tax burden on income alone comes close to 50%. That's not counting property tax (8000 last year for my house) sales tax on the stuff I buy, gas tax on the gas I buy, all the business/corporate taxes I pay for when I buy products, the tarriffs I pay for when I buy imported goods, sin tax on the alcohol I buy, the tag fees for the car I drive, the property taxes on cars, the license fees we pay at the DMV... I could go on, but it adds up. You cannot deny this. You keep trying to minimalize it, but that just ain't gonna fly with any thinking person out there.
 
Lets look at average year 2000 numbers just for fun.

Total Fed Income (from ALL forms of taxes - income, corporate, SS, medicare, unemployment, gift, estate, etc....): $2.025 trillion
Total Fed Outlays directly back to US taxpayers (SS, medicare, retirement, and other social programs): $0.877 trillion
The rest of the money went to interest payments, debt repayments, national defense, community development, etc..

Total US Households: 104.7 million

Average total fed tax per household: $2.025 trillion/104.7 million = $19,340 per household.
Average returned money: $.877 trillion/104.7 million = $9,477 per household.

Thus the net money taken by the federal government is $19,340-$9,477 = $9,836 per household.

Average CA Income (From ALL forms of state tax - income, sales, corporation, estate, insurance, motor vehicles, property, tobacco, etc...): $7,687 per household.
Lets pretend that none of the CA tax goes directly back to taxpayers (we will ignore health and human services as well as tax relief at the state level). This will make the % net tax higher than reality - but gives a nice margin of error so you cannot complain as much.

Add the average federal and California net taxes: $9,836+$7,687 = $17,551 per household.

Average CA household income: $46,802.

Thus the average CA household pays $17,551/$46,802 = 37.5% of their income to net taxes. (Remember if I included state services paid to California taxpayers this would be a bit lower). Those households earning more will pay a higher percentage and those households paying less will pay a lower percentage. Lets compare this to Mr Ruddy's number: "high-tax state like New York or California. In those states, over 40 percent of your income". Mr Rudy was just about right with that number. However that 40% includes ALL taxes (property, corporate, motor vechile, income, sales, etc.) Mr. Ruddy happens to make it sound like the 40% is only income and that the other taxes are in addition to that 40%. That is why I say he is misleading.

If I were to be pessimistic and pretend that no one gets retirement, social security, medicare, or any other benefits then that 37.5% will rise to 57.7%. This is still far below the 84% number Mr. Ruddy used.
 
"Average total fed tax per household: $2.025 trillion/104.7 million = $19,340 per household.
Average returned money: $.877 trillion/104.7 million = $9,477 per household."

You did some excellent calculating here but you forgot to add in state taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, death taxes, gas taxes, cigarrette taxes, booze tax, and every other kind of tax that is out there in the United States.

Granted, Ruddy's numbers are skewed towards people making more than $50,000 per year but that is because those people in the very bottom brackets pay little to no federal or state income tax. Some even get more money back than they paid via the Earned Income Credit. Yes, to those individuals that are in those brackets their taxes may seem like a lot. However, the top 50% of taxpayers pay over 90% of the total federal income tax!! You are forced to talk about the upper income brackets because they are the ones paying the majority of the taxes.

The burden here is that those that work hard and achieve in life are penalized for their achievement by the increasing tax scale. The more money you earn, the greater the percentage that is taken from you. Take me for example, I am four years out of college and I'm making $55,000/year. Pretty good money. But would you consider me rich? Well, the government does because I'm in that top 50%. Fed, State, Soc Sec, and Medicare taxes take 30% of my income alone. Property Taxes are another 15%. I haven't even calculated in sales tax and I'm already up to 45%! With the deductions I do get and with a kid on the way I probably get dropped down to 40% + sales taxes.

Anyways, one of the great things about the USA is that we can go from the humbles of beginnings, start with nothing, and through hard-work, wit, initiative, and maximizing our abilities we can rise to any level we desire. These taxes are holding people back however by over-taxing the achievers. The percentage of taxes to the GDP is the greatest it has ever been. My question is, when is enough enough?
 
It probably is 174% by the time you add in Social Security and Unemployment Insurance that your employer "volountarily" pays. I always liked how the U.S. government says the income tax is volountary...
 
Me: "Total Fed Income (from ALL forms of taxes - income, corporate, SS, medicare, unemployment, gift, estate, etc): $2.025 trillion"
Me: Average CA Income (From ALL forms of state tax - income, sales, corporation, estate, insurance, motor vehicles, property, tobacco, etc): $7,687 per household.

You: "You did some excellent calculating here but you forgot to add in state taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, death taxes, gas taxes, cigarrette taxes, booze tax, and every other kind of tax that is out there in the United States."

Obviously you didn't read throughly before replying. My numbers included state taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and ALL forms of taxes. These are average numbers so those who earn more than average will pay more, those who earn less will pay less.


<< Granted, Ruddy's numbers are skewed towards people making more than $50,000 per year but that is because those people in the very bottom brackets pay little to no federal or state income tax. >>

My main problem with Ruddy's numbers is that he makes them seem like they apply to everyone (including low income) when in fact his numbers only apply to about the top 5% of earners.


<< Anyways, one of the great things about the USA is that we can go from the humbles of beginnings, start with nothing, and through hard-work, wit, initiative, and maximizing our abilities we can rise to any level we desire. These taxes are holding people back however by over-taxing the achievers. >>

The USA has roughly 50% income taxes when including all forms of taxes as my numbers showed. Many other countries start at 60% income tax and add in a 10% to 16% sales tax. Thus the USA is actually a much less taxing country than most other ones (I'm not talking about 3rd world countries, just the more developed ones).


<< My question is, when is enough enough? >>

I cannot answer that. At least the USA taxes less than many others. We have to decide if we want less taxes with the trade off of less national defense, less social security, less education, less highways, etc... This balance will always change. I myself really enjoy our Army's skill, our highway system, and our money spend on colleges. If you don't like them, then keep voting for tax cuts - luckily we have that freedom.
 
I think the big problem is that we have the upwardly rising taxes, but very little to show for it. Like Queasy, I, too, pay roughly 40% in taxes. Yet, I receive next to nothing for that 40%. If I were paying the 50 to 60% like they do in Europe, at least I could have free healthcare, and all the other perks that come from using the money to fund social welfare (lower infant mortality rates, less crime, better education, etc.) As it stands, I have nothing but a rising bill for services not rendered. It has also discouraged me from being able to do all the extra things with that money which I might have done to become a more productive member of society (such as receive more education, spend more at local businesses, invest in or create my own business, take care of members of my family instead of relying on the government to do so, etc.) Essentially that money is a huge malinvestment, in my opinion. There is always talk of the diminishing returns on taxation. I think we're about there.
 
about 10 yrs ago when i was in college i did a Total federal govt spending / GNP and it came out about 50% u include state and local spending and your probably close to 70% of GNP goes to government spending. now a lot of that spending comes back to people so it isn't an accurate picture of what we're being taxed, but it does give you an idea of how big government is in the US.


One of you gung ho researcher wanna find the real numbers?
 
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