Tax Related: What does 'Fair Share' mean?

[MJinZ]

No one indivigual is critical to society.
However, the impact acts as a ripple.

Gates may be rich; but what did he actually deliver to society.
He repackaged an existing product

What does Buffet actually contribute.
He manipulates money - not creating any real value to improve things.

It is the business man that is actually improving society. And you want to penalize that person.

LOL, Gates and Buffet's BILLIONS of Dollars are used for Scientific Research and humanitarian purposes.

Those 2 ALONE elipses MILLIONS of people like your contributions. Get it? What they give to society is what a million of YOU could do, or perhaps what YOU could do in a MILLION LIFETIMES.

So get your arrogant little head out of your ass and grow up. Life isn't about YOU.

I've said this before and I'll say this again. The most fundamental difference between a Liberal and Conservative is that Conservatives are all about ME ME ME, while Liberals are about ME AND OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL.

 

[Acanthus]

When everyone is paying an EQUAL percentage you are paying your "fair share".
After all, if you are not being treated equally how is that fair?

If you have a pizza and 4 people is it not fair to give everyone 1/4 of the pizza?

Instead we have 2 person paying for the pizza, giving those 2 people 1/10 of the pizza and the other 2 people getting 9/10 of the pizza.

that argument could blow up in your face very very easily, re-evaluate what you just said.

 

[BoberFett]

liberals are about me and other people as well.

lol!

 

[MotF Bane]

while Liberals are about ME AND OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL.

I guess brainwashing works on you quite well.

 

[Acanthus]

I guess brainwashing works on you quite well.

Tell me what conservatives stand for, then?

 

[MJinZ]

I guess brainwashing works on you quite well.

Brainwashing?

I'm a LIBERAL and I am HAPPY to GIVE something of MINE to OTHERS. I don't complain about paying taxes that I don't get to see the benefits of.

What about you asshole? :awe:

 

[MotF Bane]

Tell me what conservatives stand for, then?

I haven't a fucking clue anymore what they are in practice.

 

[MotF Bane]

Brainwashing?

I'm a LIBERAL and I am HAPPY to GIVE something of MINE to OTHERS. I don't complain about paying taxes that I don't get to see the benefits of.

What about you asshole? :awe:

Give and give and give, and then trust the government to make something useful of it. You've undoubtedly seen the claims that people here parrot the Republican party line - you're the same for your so-called "liberals".

I am content for taxes to go to essential services; not to fund entitlement programs, handouts, two wars, scores of military bases, bridges to nowhere, various Congressional pet projects, and a ballooning bureaucracy. So if you aren't interested in seeing your taxes do something beneficial, then I guess you're doing just fine, and the government appreciates your stupidity.

 

[MJinZ]

Give and give and give, and then trust the government to make something useful of it. You've undoubtedly seen the claims that people here parrot the Republican party line - you're the same for your so-called "liberals".

I am content for taxes to go to essential services; not to fund entitlement programs, handouts, two wars, scores of military bases, bridges to nowhere, various Congressional pet projects, and a ballooning bureaucracy. So if you aren't interested in seeing your taxes do something beneficial, then I guess you're doing just fine, and the government appreciates your stupidity.

What entitlement programs? Two wars and military that keep you from getting car bombed? Handouts to who? Bridge to nowhere <- that was scrapped.

 

[Patranus]

That would be true if everyone had an equal amount. Since we don't all have an equal amount we have to apply basic economics which tells us we need to institute some form of progressive tax structure.

Why do you say that?
We don't have a progressive sales tax and that works perfectly fine.

Everyone needs skin in the game and the only fair way to have that is have either a national sales tax (replacing income tax) or a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage.

Say the flat tax is 10%.

If you make $20,000 you pay $2,000
If you make $1,000,000 you pay $100,000

Sounds pretty fair to me.

 

[MotF Bane]

What entitlement programs? Two wars and military that keep you from getting car bombed? Handouts to who? Bridge to nowhere <- that was scrapped.

Wait, you think the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, and that vast scattering of military bases across the world are actually essential to our national security? LOL.

 

[MJinZ]

Wait, you think the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, and that vast scattering of military bases across the world are actually essential to our national security? LOL.

They are in the interests of the US Government, they aren't doing it for charity.

Hell, if American citizens wanted to some charity, there'd be no poverty left in the world.

 

[Zebo]

We always walk a balancing act between rewarding overachievers and stimulating demand at the bottom. If there is no demand, ie society divided into haves and have nots, Capitalism stagnates and strangulates. That's what happened in 1929 and is happening right now.. When no one but the top has money and nobody on the bottom had any money, there is no demand. You don't do anything if there is no demand. Build new factories open a new store, nothing. I have been wanting to open a restaurant or another store for a long time but I won't until there is demand. I have 3 lots empty waiting for homes too but I won't do a damn thing until I can make a profit. How you create demand is by moving money back into regular peoples hands. For years we did this with high progressive taxation, public works projects and Unions.

Winners still won just not so much like today. Sometime in the 80's instead of taxing and Unions we borrowed instead to give little guy something. Privately and governmental. Private is pretty tapped today so government is taking role to sustain the weak and unfortunate. 2/3 of people are dependent on Gov't for survival from contractors to welfare. Congress won't raise taxes on those who control them so they are forced to borrow from them and 'loan it' in form of gov't debt to the have nots. This is unsustainable. One day bond won't be sold and people on the edge and dependent on Govt will be faced with some big problems.

This kinda worries me. Revolutions are ugly and communism even uglier so I think we need to get back into balance with reasonable and balanced taxation to pay for what we want.

 

[MotF Bane]

They are in the interests of the US Government, they aren't doing it for charity.

They, the wars, the bases, are in the interests of our government... or, more precisely, in the interests of our military, our related industries, other countries that rely on us for their safety... but are the interests of our government necessarily our own best interests? I never would have figured you for a world police type, nor for someone who backed the Iraq war.

Hell, if American citizens wanted to some charity, there'd be no poverty left in the world.

There will always be poverty.

 

[Zebo]

Indeed it is, which is one of the ways you can tell that trickledown economics is a scam.

Tax cuts can stimulate the economy by allowing people to spend more. This is a fact I don't know why liberals are afraid to admit it. Poor and middle spend like crazy.

However:

The conservative theory is complete bunk in that that cuts to rich people will stimulate the economy by spurring investment. Wrong. The real rich can wait it out, bet to lose (short sell) and do anything else besides spend when there is no demand. They won't invest in new equipment, new stores, factories, R&D is there is no demand. Everyone knows this. In reccesion all we here is about "lack of demand".

So to answer OP Q it's not about what "fair" there is no such thing as "fair". It's about what works. I'd say the amazing prosperity from the late forties into the early seventies &#8211; was the most "working" time of the United States. We were largest creditor not largest debtor. Anyone with a job could support a family and mom stay at home if she choose. Garage to HPs were formed all the time. etc

 

[Zebo]

I think of it from a Lockean perspective, that a person has a right to estate, or property, to survive, protect your life, and make it a life worth living. Don't be confused with a "life worth living" from a modern perspective as it doesn't accurately relate to dollars. Locke believes the reason we have a natural right (ie it's a requirement of man's nature to have it) to property is essentially to advance Man, or society, and the reason government protects that right to property is to protect humanity.

We often twist this idea into a very individualistic, winner-takes-all theme. But Locke clearly says people can use what they have and take what they need/want (legally) as long as you leave as much and as good as you've taken. You have as much as you can be productive with. Much of the settlement (and taking of Indian lands) was based on this idea, with people saying the land is going to waste, and God certainly doesn't like waste. If you cannot make it productive you have to give it back.

People do not understand the higher law purposes for property. It's not about having the largest number of marbles at the end of the game, and that predatory, clever people get to take all the marbles. Locke talked about the difference between wealth and riches. He talked about how property serves the larger body and how abuse of property gets it taken away. Locke used the term commonwealth. COMMONwealth. Adam Smith talked about the Wealth of Nations, not the wealth of individuals.

Before anyone tries to dismiss me they should know that I'm a smaller government, lower taxes conservative, but classical meaning of property has been distorted.

Many missed this scholarly post. I attribute winner takes all to lack of classical education on our great social contract theorists (Hobbs, Locke, Rousseau, Smith, founding fathers, etc)which laid foundation for past greatness and we are doomed to repeat serfdom and re-privatization. Just prepare it's all you can do.

 

[ebaycj]

So tell me what it is you do for your income?

He makes a whopping 40k per year in the "private" sector. Or so he has previously posted.

 

[jackace]

Why do you say that?
We don't have a progressive sales tax and that works perfectly fine.

Everyone needs skin in the game and the only fair way to have that is have either a national sales tax (replacing income tax) or a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage.

Say the flat tax is 10%.

If you make $20,000 you pay $2,000
If you make $1,000,000 you pay $100,000

Sounds pretty fair to me.

It's called marginal utility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility

 

[jackace]

Many missed this scholarly post. I attribute winner takes all to lack of classical education on our great social contract theorists (Hobbs, Locke, Rousseau, Smith, founding fathers, etc)which laid foundation for past greatness and we are doomed to repeat serfdom and re-privatization. Just prepare it's all you can do.

I saw his post and I liked parts of it too. The problem I see is with corporate law and limited liability laws as they are now in this country (and around the world now) if we tried to apply those principles we would end up with a huge free for all and no one would be held responsible for the carnage.

 

[Hacp]

To make another 70K after taxes?

So he's working his ass off to make that money while union members and welfare recipients sit on their asses and collect his sweat and tears for free!

 

[Red Dawn]

So he's working his ass off to make that money while union members and welfare recipients sit on their asses and collect his sweat and tears for free!

More like to pay for roads so your mother can take you to school and to pay for Police, Libraries, the Sewer Systems and the Backbone that runs the Internet where you can post your worthless drivel and so on .

 

[Jadow]

My wife and I are in the 25% bracket, and end up paying about 15% of our income to federal income taxes, however, when I add in property tax, sales tax, state income tax, various govt fees, etc... I'm sure we pay 40 to 50% of our gross to taxes. I can't imaging how people in the 35% bracket feel.

I sure feel like I pay more than my fair share, as we don't have kids, we get esp raped.

 

[gingermeggs]

Funny you should mention that since most of the EU is moving away from socialization and more toward capitalism and privatization. They are beginning to see the err of their ways and it is self-correcting. Capitalism is the strongest form of economy that gives everyone a chance to be as successful as they wish. Sure, it's not perfect, but it is far better than any alternative out there now.

Very few people in the US can't get the basics of what they need (how is it possible to "live in poverty" while still having cable and tons of toys for their kids?), perhaps they are just being greedy and wanting more than they are putting into the system? I went from making $75k a year to working at a pet store for ~$12/hr so I didn't have to go on unemployment or welfare. If I can manage through hard times, why can't someone else? Because they want to be "free" and do "whatever they want". Things don't work like that. If no one sacrifices and no one works, we all live in huts hunting for food. Not exactly a "progressive" society.

Working for Habitat for Humanity, I see a few people who just really can't catch a break (hell, some of them aren't even the people who are getting a house.. some are people that I work with!). Many people have made very poor choices for their entire lives. ALL of them have the opportunity to do something better and improve their situation, but only a handful actually realize that those opportunities are up to them. I've never seen a situation where someone could not improve.

The only thing I see the EEU doing is banning Goldman's involvement in their bond market.

Capitalism is maturing into the predatory system it always had the potential to be, with the slow lifting of protections on the financial habitat of the common populous- in the last 30years they have let the foxes into the hen house and we wonder why they don't lay eggs anymore- they have lost faith in the system that is using them up and running them into poverty, leaving them only with despair and debt as a pillow.
I don't see enough protection anymore for the people that supply the basic resources for a successful system, they need assurance and security from the system to retain their faith in it.
We need some fox scalps, not just fines and tweaking the current system.
The foxes will just make another way in and Ideological change won't work either if the same characters morph into the new roles. The chickens need to do a lock out and starve them off the farm. Any system that is this corrupt isn't going to work longterm.
But lets just keep blaming the little guy's for their bad attitudes!
The devil you know and love!
I will tell you one point of fact, it is going to get worse from here and now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c42z3LAGyTM&feature=related

 

[gingermeggs]

He makes a whopping 40k per year in the "private" sector. Or so he has previously posted.

He makes the same as me.
I worry about my future and I don't see a rainbow up ahead, just thicker and lower storm clouds. I have no faith left in the two-party shamocratic system the western world is living under, somethings got to change or the shit is going to hit the fan soon.
Probably lots of dead people and nukes n' shit.

 

[Siddhartha]

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_budget_pie_chart
Federal Budget FY 2011:
Defense 24&#37;
Health 23%
Pensions 21%
"Others" 20%
Welfare 12%

Look how the tax money will be spent