Tax Passage Clears House

[HendrixFan]

Really guys? Really?

Number of US troops in Iraq in January 2009: 140,000
Number of US troops in Iraq currently: 48,000

He promised to have all the troops out of Iraq in 16 months of his election. Obama attacked Hillary in the primaries for voting for the War, and lauded his own consistency in opposing it. If failing to keep a promise and instead doing pretty much what he attacked his opponent for is a success in your eyes, I just don't know what to tell you.

He never promised to get us out of Afghanistan, in fact he explicitly promised to involve us further in Afghanistan.

True. I should have said "war" instead of "wars".

You might not think the health care bill was all it could have been, but I would like you to describe what you think the state of health care, financial regulation, regulatory agencies in general, etc. would have been with a Republican as president instead of Obama. It's not all perfect (by any stretch of the imagination... drug companies WTF), but he has accomplished more in his first two years than any president in our lifetimes.

I'm not sure if the bolded part is in reference to healthcare or his presidency in general. Obama had a supermajority in Congress yet couldn't squeeze in the bill he wanted, and we got a watered down version instead. He told us he would lower health care costs:

The American people are going to be glad that we acted to change an unsustainable system so that more people have coverage, we're bending the cost curve, and we're getting insurance reforms.

only to turn around and tell us much later:

Bending the cost curve on health care is hard to do.

He told us to expect more efficient care but nearly every cost containment measure and oversight was watered down and stripped from the bill to get it past the republicans.

His financial "regulation" has been a pure continuation of Bush's policies. Obama was sharp to not campaign about the impending financial implosion, but you would still hope that his general message of helping the people included financial reform.

You can cut off your nose to spite your face if you want, but you'll be awfully sorry afterwards. It reminds me of: "Whatever, Gore and Bush aren't any different than one another, who cares if Bush gets elected!?" How did that turn out?

I don't recall that being said very much during the 2000 elections. I heard "Bush can't be so bad to fuck up how good things are." I watched Bush govern here in Texas so I knew how terrible he would be, certainly compared to Gore. I was unsure about Obama, he seemed to run on the same empty suit campaign as Bush did in 2000. Speak in enough generalities and people will fill in the details with their own opinions. Throw in his lack of experience and it seemed like he wouldn't know how to stand up and win a political fight. Despite his supermajority he got bent over the coffee table again and again by the right for the past two years. He has been so ineffective and weak that Republicans have forced him into legislation! With a Republican president the Democrats in Congress will rally together and do something Obama has been unable or unwilling to do, fight.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I'm all for paying less in taxes, especially when it's going to social security where I know I will never see a dime, but at the same time I'm worried about what's going to happen when the SS system ultimately fails. I assume that the 'average retirement savings' figures I've seen for people 50+ is real, something in the neighborhood of $30k, and one can easily see how quickly this may get out of hand.

I just find it harder and harder to see how we're going to pay for everything people expect while cutting taxes. Anyone with a brain knows the numbers don't add up. People are living longer and no one wants to work until they're 100 years old. What is going to give way first? Our relatively 'low' tax rates or our support for people who are not working?

 

[fskimospy]

He promised to have all the troops out of Iraq in 16 months of his election. Obama attacked Hillary in the primaries for voting for the War, and lauded his own consistency in opposing it. If failing to keep a promise and instead doing pretty much what he attacked his opponent for is a success in your eyes, I just don't know what to tell you.



True. I should have said "war" instead of "wars".



I'm not sure if the bolded part is in reference to healthcare or his presidency in general. Obama had a supermajority in Congress yet couldn't squeeze in the bill he wanted, and we got a watered down version instead. He told us he would lower health care costs:



only to turn around and tell us much later:



He told us to expect more efficient care but nearly every cost containment measure and oversight was watered down and stripped from the bill to get it past the republicans.

His financial "regulation" has been a pure continuation of Bush's policies. Obama was sharp to not campaign about the impending financial implosion, but you would still hope that his general message of helping the people included financial reform.



I don't recall that being said very much during the 2000 elections. I heard "Bush can't be so bad to fuck up how good things are." I watched Bush govern here in Texas so I knew how terrible he would be, certainly compared to Gore. I was unsure about Obama, he seemed to run on the same empty suit campaign as Bush did in 2000. Speak in enough generalities and people will fill in the details with their own opinions. Throw in his lack of experience and it seemed like he wouldn't know how to stand up and win a political fight. Despite his supermajority he got bent over the coffee table again and again by the right for the past two years. He has been so ineffective and weak that Republicans have forced him into legislation! With a Republican president the Democrats in Congress will rally together and do something Obama has been unable or unwilling to do, fight.

I think you vastly underestimate the scope of the changes that Obama has put in place over the last 2 years. Vastly underestimate.

As for Bush/Gore being no different, that was the explicit campaign slogan of Ralph Nader. It was everywhere, and lots of people bought into it. We were burned by that foolish thinking once already, don't be fooled again.

 

[IGBT]

The Democrats have never liked the Bush tax cuts. They blamed them for virtually every economic calamity that we've had. Now, all of a sudden, they're the greatest thing since sliced bread because the obama extended them.

 

[jhbball]

The Democrats have never liked the Bush tax cuts. They blamed them for virtually every economic calamity that we've had. Now, all of a sudden, they're the greatest thing since sliced bread because the obama extended them.

Who's touting them as the "greatest thing since sliced bread"?

 

[jhbball]

I think you vastly underestimate the scope of the changes that Obama has put in place over the last 2 years. Vastly underestimate.

As for Bush/Gore being no different, that was the explicit campaign slogan of Ralph Nader. It was everywhere, and lots of people bought into it. We were burned by that foolish thinking once already, don't be fooled again.

Explaining it to these morons makes no difference, you realize.

 

[spidey07]

Who's touting them as the "greatest thing since sliced bread"?

Obama. And for once in his failed presidency he's right.

 

[jhbball]

Obama. And for once in his failed presidency he's right.

Link? I googled, but couldn't find where he said that.

 

[HendrixFan]

I think you vastly underestimate the scope of the changes that Obama has put in place over the last 2 years. Vastly underestimate.

And I think you terribly overrate it, especially if you did mean "but he has accomplished more in his first two years than any president in our lifetimes" to describe his entire work and you weren't just referring to his healthcare bill.

His own poor performance will cost him the presidency in a couple years.

 

[Engineer]

Just found out that they did not renew the property tax deduction for those who do not itemize deductions. Gave business tax breaks to rum makers in Puerto Rico but can't give an extension to those of us who don't itemize (2/3 of all households don't itemize). So whatever my tax rate is X $1,800 in extra taxes this year (for 2010). Will be better in 2011 because of the SS tax cut but not as nice as it would have been. My taxes in 2010 will actually go up then. Merry fucking Christmas to me. :thumbsdown:

Some of the business tax cuts are just pathetic. Talk about special interests. Government of the people my ass.

 

[Jhhnn]

Just found out that they did not renew the property tax deduction for those who do not itemize deductions. Gave business tax breaks to rum makers in Puerto Rico but can't give an extension to those of us who don't itemize (2/3 of all households don't itemize). So whatever my tax rate is X $1,800 in extra taxes this year (for 2010). Will be better in 2011 because of the SS tax cut but not as nice as it would have been. My taxes in 2010 will actually go up then. Merry fucking Christmas to me. :thumbsdown:

Some of the business tax cuts are just pathetic. Talk about special interests. Government of the people my ass.

It's what happens when we give in to hostage taking extortionists. All the people currently drawing unemployment w/ no job in sight are the hostages.

Unless you're making pretty big money, you're talking about a coupla hundred bucks, at most. Buck up. You can handle it.

 

[matt0611]

It's what happens when we give in to hostage taking extortionists. All the people currently drawing unemployment w/ no job in sight are the hostages.

Unless you're making pretty big money, you're talking about a coupla hundred bucks, at most. Buck up. You can handle it.

The Dems had 2 years of total control of the government to lower taxes on businesses and the middle class and you blame the republicans that they didn't?

 

[Engineer]

It's what happens when we give in to hostage taking extortionists. All the people currently drawing unemployment w/ no job in sight are the hostages.

Unless you're making pretty big money, you're talking about a coupla hundred bucks, at most. Buck up. You can handle it.

Sure I can handle it, but the point is that I can imagine that this will hit the middle class the most (i.e. people like me). This will essentially be a middle class tax hike for the most part while those at the low end (who own very little property) and those at the high end (either itemize if they can or have AMT) will not be effected by this.

 

[Hacp]

I'm all for paying less in taxes, especially when it's going to social security where I know I will never see a dime, but at the same time I'm worried about what's going to happen when the SS system ultimately fails. I assume that the 'average retirement savings' figures I've seen for people 50+ is real, something in the neighborhood of $30k, and one can easily see how quickly this may get out of hand.

I just find it harder and harder to see how we're going to pay for everything people expect while cutting taxes. Anyone with a brain knows the numbers don't add up. People are living longer and no one wants to work until they're 100 years old. What is going to give way first? Our relatively 'low' tax rates or our support for people who are not working?

We don't pay. The key is to cut spending to the bone. You don't pay for what you don't spend.

 

[Hacp]

It's what happens when we give in to hostage taking extortionists. All the people currently drawing unemployment w/ no job in sight are the hostages.

Unless you're making pretty big money, you're talking about a coupla hundred bucks, at most. Buck up. You can handle it.

Ya, just lets just give unproductive people who aren't producing anything free money. Where's my free money? I want 400 bucks a month for free also.

 

[Craig234]

I'm all for paying less in taxes, especially when it's going to social security where I know I will never see a dime...

There is no reason for that to happen. If you make a self-fulfilling prophecy by gutting social security, you have only yourself to blame.

 

[Engineer]

Ya, just lets just give unproductive people who aren't producing anything free money. Where's my free money? I want 400 bucks a month for free also.

Are you saying that you are unproductive and not producing any money?

As TheFlyingPig says....Everyone knows this. :biggrin:

 

[Jhhnn]

The Dems had 2 years of total control of the government to lower taxes on businesses and the middle class and you blame the republicans that they didn't?

Is there something you don't understand about 41 Repub Senators holding the legislative process hostage to their own whims, particularly extending tax cuts to the nation's wealthiest, the true Bush constituency? That they filibustered over 90 times? Are you really that dense?

 

[sMiLeYz]

Is there something you don't understand about 41 Repub Senators holding the legislative process hostage to their own whims, particularly extending tax cuts to the nation's wealthiest, the true Bush constituency? That they filibustered over 90 times? Are you really that dense?

I think he knows less about how congress works than he does about taxes, sadly.

 

[Engineer]

Well shit, I was getting ready (in late November) to get a new gas furnace (95% efficiency) with a credit of 30% (up to $1,500) and a state credit of $300. I heard that the federal tax credits were being renewed so I decided to wait until I have more time (as in next year). Now I read that the credit for a efficient furnace is down to $150 max. Screw that. If I cannot get someone out here (without extra cost) and install one by the end of the day on 12/31, I'll run this one into the ground.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well shit, I was getting ready (in late November) to get a new gas furnace (95% efficiency) with a credit of 30% (up to $1,500) and a state credit of $300. I heard that the federal tax credits were being renewed so I decided to wait until I have more time (as in next year). Now I read that the credit for a efficient furnace is down to $150 max. Screw that. If I cannot get someone out here (without extra cost) and install one by the end of the day on 12/31, I'll run this one into the ground.

I'm confident that somebody would gladly bill you now and install in January...

Just sayin'...

 

[Engineer]

I'm confident that somebody would gladly bill you now and install in January...

Just sayin'...

That's a possibility. I do know that you cannot just "buy" without installing to get the credit. I'll check into that and call around this week.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Anyone else planning to do what rcpratt mentioned earlier? Just throwing 2% more into 401k or your other savings method of choice? I already made the change and now I'm trying to decide if that is being a good citizen or not. Maybe I should just go spend the money in hopes that my measly 2% will help do something to help the economy?

 

[Engineer]

Anyone else planning to do what rcpratt mentioned earlier? Just throwing 2% more into 401k or your other savings method of choice? I already made the change and now I'm trying to decide if that is being a good citizen or not. Maybe I should just go spend the money in hopes that my measly 2% will help do something to help the economy?

I would love to but the new company that I just started with (small company) has a year waiting period to use their simple IRA plan. I think I'll just start an IRA for myself and my wife (regular IRA) to get a tax break this upcoming year.

 

[Jhhnn]

We don't pay. The key is to cut spending to the bone. You don't pay for what you don't spend.

Ya, just lets just give unproductive people who aren't producing anything free money. Where's my free money? I want 400 bucks a month for free also.

Marvelous idea, for the financial elite who've hoarded liquidity. Why, with a brilliant idea like that, the whole economy can be driven into the dirt in a deflationary spiral, making their money even more powerful. It's not like they need to invest to maintain their lifestyles. They can play it just like they did in the 1930's- squeeze a nickel so hard that the buffalo pisses down its leg...

Now that's the true meaning of "Trickledown".