Tankless water heaters

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Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,499
374
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I don't have one, but consider the nature of the argument of tankless vs. tank. The claim is that a tank full of hot water, just sitting there between uses, loses a bunch of its heat energy and thus is a waster of energy. But where does that "lost" heat go? Into the surrounding room and, by normal air flow, around the house. So you are paying at water tank energy costs for heating your house.

If your water tank is electric, that is usually more expensive heating energy than gas, so you are wasting money and resources. But in this case your tank is gas-heated, and presumably your home furnace is, also. So you are getting the same heat, at the same cost, as if you did it in the furnace instead of the water tank.

All that depends on the idea that you need heat in your house most of the time, anyway. If you're in a colder area that uses a furnace to heat the house most of the time, my argument works. If you live in a hot area where you are running an electric air conditioner to keep the house cool, waste heat from a water tank is costing you extra because you pay even more to remove it! In a moderate-temperature area, the tank does not waste any heat in the winter, but does in the summer.

We had an interesting solution to the dilemma of "enough" hot water when our kids were young. We installed TWO gas-fired water tanks, each about 40 USG capacity, the common model size for homes. They were hooked into the water pipes just in parallel. So we had double the storage capacity of hot water, and double the heat input rate (recovery rate) when it was being used. We literally could have two teens showering, the dishwasher running, plus the washing machine, and nobody got frozen in the shower! The tanks eventually got old and developed leaks, and the kids grew up and left home, so we're back to one tank.
 

Dead3ye

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2000
2,917
1
81
Originally posted by: Baked
Take shorter showers.

You're not far from the mark. Many things I read pointed to the fact that with the inability to run out of hot water, people would take longer showers therfore using more water. The added costs for the added water usage was off setting the energy savings.

That being said, I installed one, a Rinnai outside unit, 180,000 btu. I got it ridiculously cheap (new $400), installed it myself (probably another $75) and I get propane at cost (I work for a natural gas company with a propane division), and I have a well (don't pay for water). No brainer for me.

It works great and couldn't be happier.

 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: ICRS
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
We are looking for ways to cut our energy costs (just switched electric companies to save $.023/kw) and are now considering other things as well.

We live in a new home (just finished being built in Dec.) so the water heater that we have isn't terrible, but we were curious as to whether the claims that these will save $$ on operating cost while still providing enough hot water for the house were true.

Wow you can switch electric providers where you live?

We have only 1 provider here. But then again we have a municipal electric provider.

I actually had choices between 6-8 providers.

http://www.powertochoose.org/

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
I don't have one, but consider the nature of the argument of tankless vs. tank. The claim is that a tank full of hot water, just sitting there between uses, loses a bunch of its heat energy and thus is a waster of energy. But where does that "lost" heat go? Into the surrounding room and, by normal air flow, around the house. So you are paying at water tank energy costs for heating your house.

The only problem with that is that we live in Central Texas (Austin/Round Rock) so the extra heat generated is a non-factor and the placement of the current tank (in the attic) makes it even more of a liability because of the extra a/c to cool down the upstairs (at least until I get a radiant barrier installed).
 

imported_Baloo

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2006
1,782
0
0
Originally posted by: Paperdoc
I don't have one, but consider the nature of the argument of tankless vs. tank. The claim is that a tank full of hot water, just sitting there between uses, loses a bunch of its heat energy and thus is a waster of energy. But where does that "lost" heat go? Into the surrounding room and, by normal air flow, around the house. So you are paying at water tank energy costs for heating your house.

If your water tank is electric, that is usually more expensive heating energy than gas, so you are wasting money and resources. But in this case your tank is gas-heated, and presumably your home furnace is, also. So you are getting the same heat, at the same cost, as if you did it in the furnace instead of the water tank.

All that depends on the idea that you need heat in your house most of the time, anyway. If you're in a colder area that uses a furnace to heat the house most of the time, my argument works. If you live in a hot area where you are running an electric air conditioner to keep the house cool, waste heat from a water tank is costing you extra because you pay even more to remove it! In a moderate-temperature area, the tank does not waste any heat in the winter, but does in the summer.

We had an interesting solution to the dilemma of "enough" hot water when our kids were young. We installed TWO gas-fired water tanks, each about 40 USG capacity, the common model size for homes. They were hooked into the water pipes just in parallel. So we had double the storage capacity of hot water, and double the heat input rate (recovery rate) when it was being used. We literally could have two teens showering, the dishwasher running, plus the washing machine, and nobody got frozen in the shower! The tanks eventually got old and developed leaks, and the kids grew up and left home, so we're back to one tank.

Tank gas water heaters are nowhere near as efficient as even the least efficient furnaces you can buy now, so that part of your statement does not work. Also, most of the wasted energy goes out the flue, which is open at all times - it even allows warm room air to go out the flue when idle. Most tankless heaters have a damper, and are more efficient than most furnaces that you can buy today. You would reduce your gas usage in either of the situations you mention with a sinlge tankless.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,499
374
126
Originally posted by: Baloo

Tank gas water heaters are nowhere near as efficient as even the least efficient furnaces you can buy now, so that part of your statement does not work. Also, most of the wasted energy goes out the flue, which is open at all times - it even allows warm room air to go out the flue when idle. Most tankless heaters have a damper, and are more efficient than most furnaces that you can buy today. You would reduce your gas usage in either of the situations you mention with a sinlge tankless.

True, older gas-fueled tanks did not have the heat use efficiency of high-efficiency furnaces. You can get mid-efficiency tanks. (I think that phrase means heat capture efficiency around 65 to 70%, versus 55% for classic older furnaces and 90 to 95% for modern High-Efficiency ones.) They get rid of the pilot light in favor of a an electronic spark igniter, and hence they use a flue damper to close it when not actually heating. But these still are not as efficient as a 95% efficiency "condensing" furnace that transfers flue gas heat to the house so much that the final flue gas is just warm and needs in induced draft fan to blow it outside.

RightIsWrong's comments from central Texas illustrate what I said about the waste heat being of no use, and actually some harm / cost, if you live in a hot climate.
 

NoShangriLa

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2006
1,652
0
0
Originally posted by: Paperdoc
Originally posted by: Baloo

Tank gas water heaters are nowhere near as efficient as even the least efficient furnaces you can buy now, so that part of your statement does not work. Also, most of the wasted energy goes out the flue, which is open at all times - it even allows warm room air to go out the flue when idle. Most tankless heaters have a damper, and are more efficient than most furnaces that you can buy today. You would reduce your gas usage in either of the situations you mention with a sinlge tankless.

True, older gas-fueled tanks did not have the heat use efficiency of high-efficiency furnaces. You can get mid-efficiency tanks. (I think that phrase means heat capture efficiency around 65 to 70%, versus 55% for classic older furnaces and 90 to 95% for modern High-Efficiency ones.) They get rid of the pilot light in favor of a an electronic spark igniter, and hence they use a flue damper to close it when not actually heating. But these still are not as efficient as a 95% efficiency "condensing" furnace that transfers flue gas heat to the house so much that the final flue gas is just warm and needs in induced draft fan to blow it outside.

RightIsWrong's comments from central Texas illustrate what I said about the waste heat being of no use, and actually some harm / cost, if you live in a hot climate.
Condensing unite are now are some where between 97-98% efficiency.
Electric igniter tend to break down 2-3 years of operation.

Pilot still is the best way to go, and it can be shut off to save a bit of gas in the warm summer month. (I save about $70.00 a year by shut off the pilot lights on 2 fire place).