Talk About Liberal Media Poll Bias! Fox News must have been infiltrated!

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nge-even-as-obama-holds-edge/?test=latestnews

The latest Fox News poll finds the race for the White House holds steady, with 48 percent of likely voters backing the Obama-Biden ticket and 43 percent backing the Romney-Ryan ticket, if the election were held today.


From two days ago:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...unprecedented-media-bias-this-election-cycle/

Two-dozen conservative activists and media personalities on Tuesday urged members of their respective groups to switch off the "biased news media," claiming in an open letter that establishment media are "out of control with a deliberate and unmistakable leftist agenda."
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According to NewsBusters, part of MRC, the letter was directed at the heads of ABC News, NBC News, CBS News and CNN.

I'm assuming that they will now claim even that Fox News is exhibiting a liberal bias, eh?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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The people who do the polls at Fox are completely separate from the news division. What's interesting here is how the Fox article is inaccurate about Fox's own poll.

The article says this about Obama's 5 point lead:

The president’s advantage is within the poll’s margin of sampling error.

I thought that was odd, a 5 point margin of error. Here is what the poll itself says:

with a margin of sampling error of ± 3 percentage points.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/int...change-president-to-stand-up-for-free-speech/

Oops.

- wolf
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
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The people who do the polls at Fox are completely separate from the news division. What's interesting here is how the Fox article is inaccurate about Fox's own poll.

The article says this about Obama's 5 point lead:



I thought that was odd, a 5 point margin of error. Here is what the poll itself says:



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/int...change-president-to-stand-up-for-free-speech/

Oops.

- wolf

What they're saying is that each result has a 3 point margin of error.
O: 48 +/- 3 = 45-51

R: 43 +/- 3 = 40-46
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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WTF does this mean at the end of the article..

This is standard polling methodology. You adjust your sample to include representative numbers from the various demographic categories: age, race, gender, etc. You do not adjust for party ID because that is mutable. It changes from one election to the next and it's part of what the poll is actually trying to measure.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,741
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WTF does this mean at the end of the article..

The poll is weighted by age and race; it is not weighted by party identification.

It means they over sample the populous until they have enough of the various groups to match the actual demographics. Then probably randomly sample the oversampled groups into the matched groups.

Or stated differently

Sample till they've reached the margin of error in the least sampled group then randomly sample the over sampled groups to match the least sampled group in the same ratios as the populous.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
Yeah, I think you're right. My bad.

I liek how they go out of their way to say "Well, technically it's within the margin of error" as if to discredit Obama's lead.

If we looked at the margin of error as a whole, there's a possibility Obama could be killing Romney right now 51% to 40% too, lulz.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip-
You do not adjust for party ID because that is mutable. It changes from one election to the next and it's part of what the poll is actually trying to measure.

Where did you get that from?

I've been reading they DO adjust for party affiliation and that they have been using numbers based on the '08 election.

Fern
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
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Where did you get that from?

I've been reading they DO adjust for party affiliation and that they have been using numbers based on the '08 election.

Fern

Where? Fox News? Unskewed Polls?

Just take a few seconds and think about it.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Where did you get that from?

I've been reading they DO adjust for party affiliation and that they have been using numbers based on the '08 election.

Fern

No. That is not conventional polling methodology at all. It doesn't even make sense. party affiliation can change from one election to the next, and polling on it doesn't even track voter registration all that well. It's been shown that, for example, if the electorate is in a mood to vote in a particular D or R candidate, or toward one party in general (i.e. in favor R's in 2010), that some independent voters will identify with the party whose candidate they favor that year. So, for example, an independent who intended to vote republican in 2010 might identify as a "republican" in response to the party ID question, in spite of not being registered as such. Then that same independent, who now favors Obama in 2012, might say "democrat" in response to the same question.

Party ID is a second-order issue, an effect as much as a cause, and it is part of what's being measured in the poll. Hence, it makes zero sense to adjust for it. It would be totally unscientific.

What you're confused by is the conservative counter-narrative, where they're trying to say that standard, conventional polling methods are biasing the sample toward democrats, or even worse, that pollsters are intentionally over-sampling democrats. These are the same pollsters who were, on average, accurate in 2008 and 2010, so good luck with that on November 6.

- wolf
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Oct 9, 1999
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Where did you get that from?

I've been reading they DO adjust for party affiliation and that they have been using numbers based on the '08 election.

Fern

Frank Newport, PhD, the Editor-in-Chief of Gallup, does not and never has. In this artice, in depth, he tells you exactly why:

The Recurring -- and Misleading -- Focus on Party Identification

The discussion of the party identification composition of poll samples comes up in every presidential election with which I've been involved. Interested observers often opine that when a given poll shows that Candidate X is ahead, it cannot be correct because there is a higher percentage of voters who identify with Candidate X’s party in the sample than there should be, based on comparison to some previous standard.

There are several reasons why this is a faulty approach to evaluating a poll's results.

Party identification is basically an attitudinal variable, not a stable population parameter. It is designed to vary. This is distinct from demographic variables such as age, gender, race/ethnicity, and education, which are, generally speaking, stable indicators measured by the U.S. Census Bureau. The only issues relating to demographic variables are measurement concerns -- e.g., how the census, which creates the targets, measures ethnicity versus how individual pollsters measure it. But, generally speaking, these are fairly stable targets.

Party identification is not measured by the U.S. Census Bureau, nor are there any other official state or national standards for what party identification "should be" in terms of the percent per party as it relates to the general population.

Many people use the exit polls as a standard. But exit polls use a distinct question wording, a different methodology (in person interviews at the polling place as opposed to telephone interviews), a different environment (people are asked their party identification just after having voted, which could affect how they answer), and different sampling techniques to develop who it is that is asked the question. So party identification figures as measured by a specific poll aren't easily compared to party identification as measured by an exit poll because of these and other potential issues.

Party identification changes as political tides change. General shifts in the political environment can affect party identification just as they can affect presidential job approval and results of the “Who are you going to vote for?” question.

Here is how Gallup asks party identification: “In politics, as of today, do you consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat, or an independent?”

Note that this question does not ask, “What was your party identification in November 2008?” Nor does it ask, “Are you registered with one party or the other in your state?” Our question uses the words "as of today" and "consider." It is designed to measure fluidity in political self-identification.

We know that party identification moves over time -- sometimes in very short periods of time, just like other political variables. Generally, if there is a political tide toward either of the two major parties, all questions we ask that are of a political nature will move in that direction. This includes the ballot, job approval, party identification, among others.

So, it would not be surprising to find that if Barack Obama is enjoying a surge in popularity in any given state, that surge will show up on the ballot question, on his job approval measure, and on the measure of party identification. So, data showing that Obama is ahead on the ballot in a specific state poll and that Democrats have a higher-than-expected representation on the party identification question, are basically just reflecting two measures of the same underlying phenomenon.

His reply goes further. You can read it all here.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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If your polling is left to whims of chance in terms of the breakdown for Dems/Repubs it cannot possibly be accurate unless by mere coincidence.

And the argument for not adjusting for it applies as equally to the other demographics mentioned. The voter breakdown for age, income, gender etc all changes each election just as the turnout numbers for D's and R's change.

And the discussion of over/under sampling long predates Romney's campaign.

As I've linked previously, Rassmussen is frequently identified as a very accurate poll. I assume you are referring to them as most Dems type here like to discount them.

Fern
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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As I've linked previously, Rassmussen is frequently identified as a very accurate poll. I assume you are referring to them as most Dems type here like to discount them.

Fern

Taking the Rassmussen polling and applying it against an electoral map, conceding the state to either candidate who meets the margin of error, gives Obama 247 and Romney 216. This excludes 75 votes from Nevada, Colorado, Ohio, Virgina, and Florida.

Romney is going to have to carry too many of the remaining states to win. The last RM poll also finished in Ohio on the 12th so it's probably not very useful. Even the Fox News poll has Obama carrying the state by 7 points.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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-snip-
Romney is going to have to carry too many of the remaining states to win.

I don't disagree, although as I've stated before I'll give more credence to polling after the debates. It's just M.O. that debates can substantially change the race. E.g., I think they were quite influential in Bush v Gore. Gore managed to act like an arrogant azz in the first debate and I think it likely cost him many votes.

Fern
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
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If your polling is left to whims of chance in terms of the breakdown for Dems/Repubs it cannot possibly be accurate unless by mere coincidence.

And the argument for not adjusting for it applies as equally to the other demographics mentioned. The voter breakdown for age, income, gender etc all changes each election just as the turnout numbers for D's and R's change.

And the discussion of over/under sampling long predates Romney's campaign.

As I've linked previously, Rassmussen is frequently identified as a very accurate poll. I assume you are referring to them as most Dems type here like to discount them.

Fern

You are quite frankly too stupid to understand even basic statistics and probability theory.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
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Btw to the moron who claimed Rassmussen was the most accurate poll...think again. From Nate Silver's blog (who btw is the most accurate and respected election forecaster in the country)

"What to think of the Rasmussen poll? Their surveys usually have a Republican lean, but it seems to have gotten stronger in the last few weeks. It has also been stronger in some years than others. Rasmussen got reasonably good results in years like 2006 and 2008 when their polls were close to the consensus. However, their polls were the least accurate of the major polling firms in 2010, when they had an especially strong Republican house-effect. The same was true in 2000, when they had a three- or four-point statistical bias toward Republican candidates.

This feature is not unique to Rasmussen Reports: a poll that substantially differs from the consensus, whether in a Democratic or Republican direction, is usually not one that you’ll want to bet on. And there is even less reason to do so when a poll is taking a number of methodological shortcuts, while others are being more thorough. But there have been years when the whole polling average has been off in one direction or another, and the “outlier” polls turn out to look good. It’s also the case that a broken clock is right twice a day."
 

JKing106

Platinum Member
Mar 19, 2009
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If your polling is left to whims of chance in terms of the breakdown for Dems/Repubs it cannot possibly be accurate unless by mere coincidence.

And the argument for not adjusting for it applies as equally to the other demographics mentioned. The voter breakdown for age, income, gender etc all changes each election just as the turnout numbers for D's and R's change.

And the discussion of over/under sampling long predates Romney's campaign.

As I've linked previously, Rassmussen is frequently identified as a very accurate poll. I assume you are referring to them as most Dems type here like to discount them.

Fern

You're the reason this forum is a haven for Republican/Libertarian douchebag zealots, aren't you?

Moderator call outs of any kind are strictly forbidden here. Simply put, you may not make reference to a poster's other mod status when they are posting on their personal account.

Perknose
Forum Director
 
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Schmide

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Mar 7, 2002
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To simplify basically

Party affiliation is a mostly defendant variable towards voting preference.

Age is a mostly independent variable towards voting preference.

Imagine a poll (totally made up)

60% of the people polled loved Clay Aiken

Of those people
50% were women
50% were men
90% were heterosexual
10% were homosexual

Imagine of we unskewed the poll so that 50% of the respondents were homosexual. The poll would skew approximately

( 0.6 * 0.9 * 0.4 ) + (1 * 0.6) = 0.81.6 or 82%

Edit: Thus homosexuality would be a mostly dependent variable for loving Clay Aiken.
and Gender would be a mostly independent variable for loving Clay Aiken.
 
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berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
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TBH, I don't understand how you cannot adjust for party affiliation and be accurate.

That makes about as much sense as not understanding how you can't adjust for who prefers Romney and who prefers Obama and be accurate. That's what you're trying to find out.

You want a representative sample of the American populace, so you adjust for race, gender, age. We have census numbers that tell us those, and the age/gender/race composition isn't likely to change drastically between elections in an unpredictable manner. But if tomorrow, Obama said that Democrats are now the party of Islamofascism, the amount of self-proclaimed Democrats could change overnight. Imagine then 'adjusting for party preference' based on the amount of Democrats last year. You would think 40% of the country was Islamofascist, rather than the .1% that would stick around with that version of the party, while everyone else went off to be 'Independents' or 'Greens' or whatever.

Similarly, there are many more self-proclaimed Democrats than Republicans right now, even though more self-proclaimed conservatives than liberals, because the Republican party today has gone completely insane and lots of people are leaving to be 'Independents' until it reshapes itself into a new coalition.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
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Basically to sum up this thread, Fern and the rest of his conservative ilk don't understand shit about how polling works.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
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You want accurate stats, with sound reasoning behind everything?

Go to 538

The guy there did an outstanding job 4 years ago calling everything pretty accurately, and gives his reasoning too.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
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You have to admit though that the entire media has a liberal bias when they show Ohio being neck and neck, if not being in Obama's favor. Fox News did it's own poll of who their viewers thought would win the state and it was Romney 90%, Obama 10%.

I think that makes it pretty obvious just how liberal every other form of news media in the world really is.