Surprise, act like an ass & you'll get treated like one.
Here's hoping he wastes the next few months of his life trying to get something out of this & gets shot down. It would be even better if it cost him money, but I know there are idiots out there that will fund his little vendetta.
What a fucking douche.
Viper GTS
Here's hoping he wastes the next few months of his life trying to get something out of this & gets shot down. It would be even better if it cost him money, but I know there are idiots out there that will fund his little vendetta.
What a fucking douche.
Viper GTS
Yes but just because it is legal does not mean it's the best choice for the situation. Going around pushing the limits of what you can do legally just to piss people off makes you an asshole.
Viper GTS
I didn't say he wasn't an asshole but that doesn't have any bearing on his rights. If he's allowed to do it, he's allowed to do it regardless of how much of an asshole you think he is.
Well, they didnt violate anything because REI went through with a criminal trespass complaint which means hes screwed in terms of trying to sue for anything.
He wasnt technically detained for taking the photo. He was detained because the store filed a criminal trespass complaint. The store was well within its legal rights to file the complaint. Loomis nor REI forcibly detained him either. He should have left. If the store/loomis tried to detain him then, and used physical means to do so, he then could have sued them. The cop detained him per request of the store. He was taken to the station 1. to remove him from the location where the complaint was filed 2. to do the paper work banning him from the location for 12 months.
Trespass complaint = trip to police station.
Capt Caveman
Lifer
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Yep. I'm guessing they were concerned he was staking out the ATM reload process by filming/photographing them. When he refused to identify himself, it only escalated matters and made him even more suspicious.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
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Wrong. He was cuffed and taken downtown. That was an arrest and required a miranda reading.
However, he played the entire thing wrong. His question as soon as the police showed up should have been, "Am I being detained?" and if the answer to that was yes, the next question should have been, "What is your articulable probable cause for detaining me?", and the final statement should have been, "Either charge me or release me."
Instead, he chose to aggravate the situation by being evasive.
ZV
Zenmervolt
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Unless he was informed that he had to leave (which he could not have done since he was being detained on-site), there was no valid trespass complaint. In order to have a person detained and arrested for trespass, that person must be notified that they are required to leave the premises and the person must have the opportunity to leave the premises but refuse to do so.
Based on the account there was no grounds for detainment based on a a trespass complaint because the person did NOT refuse to leave after being asked to do so.
ZV
Capt Caveman
Lifer
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1. Criminal trespass
2. Arizona v. Miranda, they are legally only required to read you your rights if they plan to question you.
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Who the hell said anything about law? I'm talking about being a considerate, civil member of society, something a lot of people in the world seem to know nothing about.
KT
Zenmervolt
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1) It does not become criminal trespass until the perpetrator is notified and refuses to leave. There was no basis for a trespass detainment unless he refused to leave, and, based on the account, there's nothing to support that theory.
2) There was still no basis for an arrest. There was no articulable probable cause.
ZV
Zenmervolt
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Yes, "the" account in question was the perpetrator's own account. I thought that everyone in this thread was intelligent enough to understand that. Obviously, I misjudged.
As far as signing the acknowledgement, that does not indicate that he trespassed in the case that is described. He signed an agreement acknowledging the fact that he had been notified that any future visits to that REI would be considered to be trespassing. There is a difference between "being trespassed", which indicates that you have been notified that a continued presence will be grounds for a criminal trespassing charge, and actually "trespassing" which is when a person disregards the fact that they have "been trespassed".
ZV
Yes, they can take him in. You can hold someone for some time without actually placing them under arrest for a specific crime. They can also detain you for refusing to provide identification. I'm not sure if the time allowed is federally mandated, or if it varies by jurisdiction, but I know it can actually be quite a while (several hours at least).
First, understand that I worked in various types of security for more than a decade, so I have some experience here.
It's not illegal for them to ask for ID, but they're not authorized to compel it either. Nor are they authorized to detain you without a crime actually being committed in their presence. They can ask, but if the citizen refuses, all they can do is call the cops and explain their suspicions, then write the report with what info they have.
As a security officer of any type you EXPECT every person you deal with to be an idiot or an asshole. If you get upset by it, or feel the need to seek retribution, you need to pick a new career field.
That doesn't fully cover it. You can't be charged with a crime for refusing to show ID, but you can be detained until your identity is confirmed (by actual law enforcement mind you, not security).
Zenmervolt
Elite member
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Not in Washington State. There is no legal requirement for presenting identification here and refusal does not constitute grounds for arrest per a Washington State Supreme Court decision. This has already been linked in this thread.
EDIT: Never mind, you have addressed this.
ZV
Capt Caveman
Lifer
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Zenmervolt
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Yeah, that would be what my edit reflects. You're really quick on the uptake tonight, aren't you.
ZV
Nope. Absolutely 100% wrong. A trespass notification is NOT a criminal matter, until/unless it is violated. The ONLY thing the police can do is inform you that you've been trespassed, and tell you to begin leaving the premises with reasonable speed. Believe me, I've trespassed hundreds of people. The ONLY thing that is required is for an agent of the property owner to say "You are officially trespassed from this property." That's it, then you have to leave. You still haven't committed a crime of any type.
The paperwork can be done later, and doesn't require the individual to be there at all, sign anything, or anything else. You, or a legal representative of the property, just fill out the report for the police. Then they keep a copy on file for the duration of the trespass. You never are required to give the trespasser anything but verbal notice that they are trespassed, though you must provide them a copy of the complaint and trespass form/card if they ask.
Mind you, that's Washington, and I believe still Oregon (though I haven't worked there in forever). Other jurisdictions vary with regards to the process and rules.
He was taken to the police station for a possible combination of reasons: he was a bit of an ass, the police were pissed at him, to confirm his identity (if he still refused to show them ID, I can't remember from the story if he ever showed police his ID).
Capt Caveman
Lifer
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