Take a picture of the moon for your grandkids.

[SSSnail]

Meh, there are plenty of moon pictures on the internet already, I'll just print one out and tape it to the wall.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Got it covered.



Mars and Saturn while we're at it.






The thought of strip mining the moon sounds like a bad idea though, but bad idea or not when money is involved they wont be stopped.

 

[IronWing]

Got it covered.

The moon is just a really big coyote melon! D:

 

[Brovane]

Got it covered.


The thought of strip mining the moon sounds like a bad idea though, but bad idea or not when money is involved they wont be stopped.

Yeah because if we have water at the top of the gravity well on the Moon's surface we shouldn't use this resource because money might be involved. :\

Put it this way. It takes about 2.53 km/s of delta-V to EML-2 from the lunar surface. It takes about 9.5 km/s of delta-V to reach orbit from the Earth's surface.

From LEO to Mars Transfer orbit is about 4.3 km/s.

From EML-2 to Mars Transfer orbit is about 1.6 km/s.

A propellant depot at EML-2 would be a huge advantage for manned Beyond Earth Orbit space exploration. Not to mention the advantage of lunar colonies having access to water that is on the lunar surface.

 

[DrPizza]

Also, as we mine all the diamonds on the moon and ship them back to earth, the moon will weigh less and thus increase it's orbital radius. This in turn will increase lift requirements to get there, thereby eventually limiting the diamond mining as lift costs > diamond value.

Except perhaps for the helium 3 isotope which could be used for fusion reactors on Earth, I'm doubting that anything mined on the Moon could be mined there and brought back to Earth for less than the cost to mine it here. Those transportation costs are a bitch.

 

[clamum]

"The United Nations Outer Space treaty... also bans nuclear weapons in space, prohibits national claims to celestial bodies"

Typical of the UN, trying to be a party pooper. They're trying to block our claim and rewrite history, as if the US were not the first ones to claim dibs on the Moon. Our flag was the first flag on that moon!

Suck it world, the moon is ours. Perhaps the treaty was in effect prior to the US claiming Mars, so, you might get to share that with us, but the Moon? Nope, we claimed it forever ago. We'll blast it to hell if we really feel so inclined, but, we sort of like it... for now. So you can thank us, World. We haven't destroyed it in weapons testing, when we could have. You're welcome.

:awe:

Haha, I've got this shirt:

MURICA!

 

[destrekor]

Except perhaps for the helium 3 isotope which could be used for fusion reactors on Earth, I'm doubting that anything mined on the Moon could be mined there and brought back to Earth for less than the cost to mine it here. Those transportation costs are a bitch.

Well some things might be perhaps mined from the Moon to be used solely for use off the Earth. Lifting it off X resources from Earth would surely cost more than transportation from the Moon to LEO or Mars or space ship orbital yard. Perhaps those very resources could be what builds future industry on the Moon or such space yards. I don't know if it has enough of any particular material, and I can't be bothered to research that point right now, so it might be a fairy tale. Helium-3 would be among the first, if not the very first, mined element from the Moon.

 

[HeXen]

We can't do this. It would squash the conspiracy theories of aliens on the moon warding us away and being the reason we never went back. You can't do that to these people, they've been hard at work creating evidence for years.

 

[MongGrel]

Imagine the biggest fucking most annoying roadside interstate sex toy store billboard you could possibly find and make it moon-sized. BAM. Instant advertising.

+10

 

[Printer Bandit]

Prove that aliens don't exist on the dark side of the moon #masterdebators

 

[ImpulsE69]

Something does seem not right about the US selling the moon to corporations...you know, those same corporations that pretty much ruin everything they get their greedy hands on...

Fortunately, it'll be awhile before they get to that point.

 

[Brovane]

Except perhaps for the helium 3 isotope which could be used for fusion reactors on Earth, I'm doubting that anything mined on the Moon could be mined there and brought back to Earth for less than the cost to mine it here. Those transportation costs are a bitch.

Not if you mine ice out of the lunar surface and then split the H20 into H and O. You can then liquefy the Oxygen and Hydrogen and then use it for fuel to send the helium 3 back to Earth. :sneaky: Going back to Earth isn't that hard since once you reach lunar orbit you are the top of the gravity well of the Earth-Moon system.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Sweet, tangentially related, XKCD

http://what-if.xkcd.com/13/

 

[Jeff7]

Also, as we mine all the diamonds on the moon and ship them back to earth, the moon will weigh less and thus increase it's orbital radius. This in turn will increase lift requirements to get there, thereby eventually limiting the diamond mining as lift costs > diamond value.

Nothing a really long rope and a good winch can't handle.

 

[darkswordsman17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOOl6xKRQ_4

 

[bradly1101]

Never underestimate the ability of humanity to completely mar something for a buck.

But money is speech and corporations are people with louder voices than the rest of us. I don't think the protestations of those who would conserve and preserve can be heard above the monetary fray.

 

[John Connor]

I can click a link, why the wall of text?

 

[SunnyD]

I can click a link, why the wall of text?

Because some people are firewalled. It's called common courtesy, and it prevents the "I can't click the link, cliffs?" bitching later on in the thread.

 

[JMapleton]

It will take more than 20 years for us to set up mining on the moon. That probably will not happen until late in the century.

 

[John Connor]

Because some people are firewalled. It's called common courtesy, and it prevents the "I can't click the link, cliffs?" bitching later on in the thread.

In my other forum I was bitched at for doing it.

 

[DrPizza]

Well some things might be perhaps mined from the Moon to be used solely for use off the Earth. Lifting it off X resources from Earth would surely cost more than transportation from the Moon to LEO or Mars or space ship orbital yard. Perhaps those very resources could be what builds future industry on the Moon or such space yards. I don't know if it has enough of any particular material, and I can't be bothered to research that point right now, so it might be a fairy tale. Helium-3 would be among the first, if not the very first, mined element from the Moon.

Very true - I had that in mind and probably should have included it in my post.

Not if you mine ice out of the lunar surface and then split the H20 into H and O. You can then liquefy the Oxygen and Hydrogen and then use it for fuel to send the helium 3 back to Earth. :sneaky: Going back to Earth isn't that hard since once you reach lunar orbit you are the top of the gravity well of the Earth-Moon system.

I suppose, if you want to. So, you save on the cost of fuel. Though, there are other inherent costs for that fuel - a lot of infrastructure to put into place just to mine and refine the raw materials. A lot of infrastructure to put into place for getting that fuel into a form it can be used. And, a lot of cost in getting those rockets to the moon so that they can be shipped back to the Earth. I suspect you'll suggest the rockets can be made on the moons surface using raw materials found there. I'll pre-emptively ask, how much infrastructure is involved in creating those rockets on Earth - all the parts from all the different companies supplying those parts, etc.

Also, I haven't read much on it, but wouldn't some sort of linear accelerator/rail gun be more efficient if you had a mining colony with the intent of sending a lot of materials back to Earth? E.g., you wouldn't need a complicated vehicle, just a container and method to propel it down a track. "Aim" for the right part of Earth, launch, and a couple days later, k'thunk in some desert.

 

[ElFenix]

Yeah because if we have water at the top of the gravity well on the Moon's surface we shouldn't use this resource because money might be involved. :\

Put it this way. It takes about 2.53 km/s of delta-V to EML-2 from the lunar surface. It takes about 9.5 km/s of delta-V to reach orbit from the Earth's surface.

From LEO to Mars Transfer orbit is about 4.3 km/s.

From EML-2 to Mars Transfer orbit is about 1.6 km/s.

A propellant depot at EML-2 would be a huge advantage for manned Beyond Earth Orbit space exploration. Not to mention the advantage of lunar colonies having access to water that is on the lunar surface.

thanks to kerbal i have some idea of what you're talking about

 

[Brovane]

I suppose, if you want to. So, you save on the cost of fuel. Though, there are other inherent costs for that fuel - a lot of infrastructure to put into place just to mine and refine the raw materials. A lot of infrastructure to put into place for getting that fuel into a form it can be used. And, a lot of cost in getting those rockets to the moon so that they can be shipped back to the Earth. I suspect you'll suggest the rockets can be made on the moons surface using raw materials found there. I'll pre-emptively ask, how much infrastructure is involved in creating those rockets on Earth - all the parts from all the different companies supplying those parts, etc.

Also, I haven't read much on it, but wouldn't some sort of linear accelerator/rail gun be more efficient if you had a mining colony with the intent of sending a lot of materials back to Earth? E.g., you wouldn't need a complicated vehicle, just a container and method to propel it down a track. "Aim" for the right part of Earth, launch, and a couple days later, k'thunk in some desert.

Damn you making me do some math. :hmm:

Let's assume we use a Falcon Heavy to send our payload to the Moon. With a TLI of roughly about 16-18 tons we can probably soft land 6 tons of lander mass on the surface. If we assume about 1 ton for structure we have about 5 tons for payload. Falcon Heavy pricing is about $85 Million per launch vehicle. That doesn't assume if we did block buy of say 10 launch vehicle we could get a better price.

I have some calculations I did for a power plant that was solar cell conversion of Solar Energy to electrical energy for direct use during lunar day and electrolysis of water for use in fuel cells during lunar night. Basically it took water and used a electrolytic cell to separate out the H and 0. You then need a liquifier to convert the liquid. A system of about 600kg will convert a little over 3kg of water per hour to LH2 and LO. We can double the mass of the system to 1200kg and then we will use the rest of the mass for Solar panels to power the converter A system like this could produce about 2 tons of propellant per month.

The mining operation to get Helium-3 out of the regolith is going to be much more difficult. I have heard estimates of upwards 100 Million tons for 1 ton of HE-3. At a estimated price of $15k a gram Helium-3 is worth 15 Million a kg.

You are right some type of mass driver could be possible to send the payload on a trajectory towards the Earth. With the lower gravity and no atmosphere you could achieve the required velocities. To me I am more interesting in mining water from the Moon rather than HE-3. :thumbsup:

 

[Larnz]

"The United Nations Outer Space treaty... also bans nuclear weapons in space, prohibits national claims to celestial bodies"

Typical of the UN, trying to be a party pooper. They're trying to block our claim and rewrite history, as if the US were not the first ones to claim dibs on the Moon. Our flag was the first flag on that moon!

Suck it world, the moon is ours. Perhaps the treaty was in effect prior to the US claiming Mars, so, you might get to share that with us, but the Moon? Nope, we claimed it forever ago. We'll blast it to hell if we really feel so inclined, but, we sort of like it... for now. So you can thank us, World. We haven't destroyed it in weapons testing, when we could have. You're welcome.

Historically on this planet being the "First" to somewhere does not mean squat when it comes to owning it. Just look at America for instance, the whitey wasn't even within hundreds of years of being the first to arrive yet look at today... same goes for half the planet, I doubt the moon will be any different and even harder to control/police.

The moon rights could totally start another cold war type dealio. Except no-one could ever compete with China, for every 1 shuttle the US could send up China could send 50, once competition really starts up, well, it wouldn't even be a competition. The moon will be China's no two ways about it.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Mine the shit out of the moon I say. It's not like it has any wildlife to disturb (except the mole people)

Will be interesting to see what authority can sell the rights. The UN I guess. Potential cluster fcuk in the making.