Taiwan: We don't need your help, USA

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gaidensensei

gaidensensei

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http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/04/30/taiwan.china.us/

Cutoff, direct point from the speech:
"We will continue to reduce the risks so that we will purchase arms from the United States, but we will never ask the Americans to fight for Taiwan," Ma told CNN's Christiane Amanpour in an exclusive interview that aired Friday. "This is something that is very, very clear."
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To clarify, by what I mean in "don't need" help is as in physical help; not through use of weapon trades or whatever.
It seems that it could be a translation problem as in mandarin it is very clear by saying "We don't need help".
 
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cubby1223

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May 24, 2004
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Definitely a misleading title. They are receiving our help through arm sales. They're just not asking for physical bodies for combat.
 
nonlnear

nonlnear

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They won't ask because the decision of the USA to intervene in such a situation will have nothing to do with the needs of Taiwan per se. The USA would only intervene if the USA deemed it was in their strategic interest to do so. If Taiwan wanted help fighting China off but the USA decided it wasn't time for a world war, the it would be appropriate for Taiwan to save the humiliation of asking and simply position itself for the best possible bargaining position with China in the ensuing annexation talks. This has been the silent but obvious reality for quite some time.
 
Thump553

Thump553

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Jun 2, 2000
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Don't kid yourself, the full force of USA's military might is the main deterrent keeping Red China from rolling right over Taiwan. If the Reds thought that the USA would stay out of a fight the attack would be launched in minutes. USA's probable involvement changes the whole cost/benefit ratio drastically.
 
gaidensensei

gaidensensei

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I updated the first post with what it meant by "don't need", it has to do with this still during the translation
s0yc1u.jpg


Basically said, "We will never need your help to fight for Taiwan"
 
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woodie1

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Mar 7, 2000
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Thump553 said:
Don't kid yourself, the full force of USA's military might is the main deterrent keeping Red China from rolling right over Taiwan. If the Reds thought that the USA would stay out of a fight the attack would be launched in minutes. USA's probable involvement changes the whole cost/benefit ratio drastically.
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That sums it up well. Once China senses we wouldn't respond to an attack then Taiwan will be lost.
 
nonlnear

nonlnear

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Thump553 said:
Don't kid yourself, the full force of USA's military might is the main deterrent keeping Red China from rolling right over Taiwan. If the Reds thought that the USA would stay out of a fight the attack would be launched in minutes. USA's probable involvement changes the whole cost/benefit ratio drastically.
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong, American might is an effective deterrent in the area. It keeps the minimum Chinese investment (in terms of blood and dollars) high. There was a time not too long ago when the calculation I just set out would have (IMHO) led the USA to opt for war. That may well still be the case. I didn't mean it to imply that the USA would necessarily opt to abandon Taiwan. Only that the actual pleas for help from Taiwan wouldn't weigh all that heavily in the calculation of what is in the best interests of the USA.
 
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Noobtastic

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America would never go to war on behalf of Taiwan.

Taiwan, like Israel - has experienced major abuse at the hands of our leaders. Under Eisenhower, the military was committed to defending Taiwan against mainland China.

Einsehower was a staunch anti-communist and supported the idea of fighting "international communism." Thus Taiwan, for a little awhile, was guaranteed its security by the USA.

In 1972 Nixon completely reversed American foreign policy towards China. Nixon and Kissenger ultimately met with Chairman Mao, and since then relations with China has taken precedence over our relationship with Taiwan.

Funny to note - it was Henry Kissenger that encouraged Nixon to abandon Israel during the Yom Kippur, and 1 year later we abandon Taiwan.

Taiwan should not depend on us for their security. Our support for China is morally wrong...but, unfortunately...today, it has become a part of life.

the Left of course has gushing support for communism...so they don't give a shit. Chomsky was jizzin in his pants over the cultural revolution.
 
Mani

Mani

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Thump553 said:
Don't kid yourself, the full force of USA's military might is the main deterrent keeping Red China from rolling right over Taiwan. If the Reds thought that the USA would stay out of a fight the attack would be launched in minutes. USA's probable involvement changes the whole cost/benefit ratio drastically.
Click to expand...

Actually, China pretty much considers Taiwan a territory of theirs currently. Taiwanese industry is increasingly moving into China and making them increasingly reliant on them. I think there is a growing sense of inevitability amongst the Chinese and Taiwanese that the two will at some point be indistinguishable. Point being, China really has little reason to invade Taiwan at this point even if the U.S. were not backing Taiwan.
 
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JEDIYoda

JEDIYoda

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Thump553

Thump553

Lifer
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IHateViruses said:
America would never go to war on behalf of Taiwan.

Taiwan, like Israel - has experienced major abuse at the hands of our leaders. Under Eisenhower, the military was committed to defending Taiwan against mainland China.

Einsehower was a staunch anti-communist and supported the idea of fighting "international communism." Thus Taiwan, for a little awhile, was guaranteed its security by the USA.

In 1972 Nixon completely reversed American foreign policy towards China. Nixon and Kissenger ultimately met with Chairman Mao, and since then relations with China has taken precedence over our relationship with Taiwan.

Funny to note - it was Henry Kissenger that encouraged Nixon to abandon Israel during the Yom Kippur, and 1 year later we abandon Taiwan.

Taiwan should not depend on us for their security. Our support for China is morally wrong...but, unfortunately...today, it has become a part of life.

the Left of course has gushing support for communism...so they don't give a shit. Chomsky was jizzin in his pants over the cultural revolution.
Click to expand...

You are misinterpreting things through your Israel-centric view, as usual. Nixon never adopted Taiwan (outside of the essentially meaningless UN seat issue) and every President has stood behind 100% behind the defense of Taiwan since Truman. Nixon made it clear that we were not abandoning Taiwan when we started normalizing relations with Red China (although the rabid backers of Taiwan back then made pretty much the same noises about abandoning Taiwan that you make about Israel today). nonlnear is probably correct in that Taiwan will eventually merge with China along the lines of Hong Kong. Odds are strong unification will happen eventually, and the odds that the unification will come as the result of military conquest are probably decreasing. Remember Taiwan was always part of China, it split off in the late 1940s when Mao pushed Chang Hai Shek (sp?, it's been a long time) and his forces off the mainland onto Taiwan.
 
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Noobtastic

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Thump553 said:
You are misinterpreting things through your Israel-centric view, as usual. Nixon never adopted Taiwan (outside of the essentially meaningless UN seat issue) and every President has stood behind 100% behind the defense of Taiwan since Truman. Nixon made it clear that we were not abandoning Taiwan when we started normalizing relations with Red China (although the rabid backers of Taiwan back then made pretty much the same noises about abandoning Taiwan that you make about Israel today). nonlnear is probably correct in that Taiwan will eventually merge with China along the lines of Hong Kong. Odds are strong unification will happen eventually, and the odds that the unification will come as the result of military conquest are probably decreasing. Remember Taiwan was always part of China, it split off in the late 1940s when Mao pushed Chang Hai Shek (sp?, it's been a long time) and his forces off the mainland onto Taiwan.
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bullshit.

Nixon abandoned Taiwan for China. Why do you think Taiwan has no representation in the UN? Why do you think we did nothing when China fired 450,000 shells at the island during the crisis?

Point is - Taiwan cannot depend on the USA. You seriously think we would pick a fight with China if it decided to invade Taiwan?

Hell fuckin no.
 
I

IamDavid

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Sep 13, 2000
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IHateViruses said:
bullshit.

Nixon abandoned Taiwan for China. Why do you think Taiwan has no representation in the UN? Why do you think we did nothing when China fired 450,000 shells at the island during the crisis?

Point is - Taiwan cannot depend on the USA. You seriously think we would pick a fight with China if it decided to invade Taiwan?

Hell fuckin no.
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And if we didn't, we'd show the world how weak we were.. That would be a sad day for sure..
 
Schadenfroh

Schadenfroh

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Mar 8, 2003
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Sell them about half-a-dozen medium range ballistic missiles with thermonuclear warheads on them. No worries of an invasion then:)

Of course, that might also trigger WW3 and cause sanctions against the US for proliferation since it would undoubtedly be discovered that they were not developed in Taiwan....
 
J

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
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lol I guess shooting yourself to get re-elected doesn't work.

Regardless, it's not up to Taiwan to decide or ask or need help from us. We'll fucking help you whether you want it or not if we want to.

Now make me a noodle sammich!
 
N

Noobtastic

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Jul 9, 2005
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Red Dawn said:
As if Tiawan or even Iseal would risk themselves for us
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nice spelling. Taiwan has never achieved the constituent support like Israel and its relationship with the USA is more or less secondary to mainland China.

Israel got screwed like Taiwan in the 50s by Eisenhower, especially during the Suez crisis, but it pulled out after 1967 when USA realized it had to accept an Israeli state.

and yeah, many nations have risked their sovereignty to maintain a relationship with the USA. Israel sacrificed over 2,500 of its own soldiers during the 1973 war, even though it had intel hours before the invasion began.

It knew a pre-emptive strike on the Arabs, like in 1967, wouldn't bode well with the USA or the UN and wouldn't receive any political support after the conflict.

so it allowed itself to get fucked to please the USA.
A load of crap. Show quotes, I have read him for years and he has always pointed out that China is a State Capitalist shithole run by a dictatorship.
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No, Chomsky believed the Soviet Union was a false socialist state, though his opinions of its foreign policy an domestic terror were mild compare to his visceral hatred of the United States.

Chomsky provided a lot of flowery language during the cultural revolution and great leap forward.

he also had a hard-on for the khmer rouge.


Noam Chomsky gushing about the revolution in China:

http://www.chomsky.info/debates/19671215.htm
There are even better examples than China. But I do think that China is an important example of a new society in which very interesting positive things happened at the local level, in which a good deal of the collectivization and communization was really based on mass participation and took place after a level of understanding had been reached in the peasantry that led to this next step
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Or his dubious comparison between occupied Tibet and "occupied" Palestine.

http://www.zcommunications.org/kosovo-serbia-palestine-israel-tibet-china-by-noam-chomsky

Chomsky says violence in the West Bank is greater than in Tibet (false), and that China's policies towards Tibet is more justified because it is an "internal matter."

This is the same asshole who said the Srebrenica massacre wasn't a genocide because 8,000 killed isn't enough to qualify as one.

Chomsky defines left revisionism...by far his most morally offensive essays revolve around how the marxist-inspired pogroms against Jews in post-Tsarist russia weren't that bad...

repulsive...
 
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StrangerGuy

StrangerGuy

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May 9, 2004
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I'm Chinese and I know for sure China will NEVER invade Taiwan even without the US interference. Because both are only too interested in making money off each other.
 
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