Taiwan is a historic complex to Chinese

[0roo0roo]

now you are playing word games. its like two musicians argueing who is the king of pop. it is irrelevant to reality.
and you really need to pickup a critical thinking text and look at how logic works. you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid😛 let alone the conclusion.

 

[XMan]

The Jews have a historic complex to Jerusalem and other areas of the Middle East, as well. Ironically enough the folks who seem willing to let China reclaim Taiwan act as though Israel shouldn't even exist . . . just a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
en......... Lovely weekend.🙂

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The syllogism is clear:

1. The Taiwan question is to be determined by the Chinese on both sides of the Straits.

2. All Chinese recognize ONE CHINA, and Taiwan as part of that CHINA.

3. Taiwanese are not Chinese if they do not support ONE CHINA, and therefore has no say at all.

The US has spoken. Taiwanese are Chinese. Taiwan is a part of China. The Taiwan independence movement is a result of true trouble makers wanting to start a war.
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Mansnake's words is logic, based on reasonable facts.

And for Rchiu,

Rchiu insists that a few people in a government that do not represent the 1.2 billion Chinese people say. It's his/ her opinion. If fact, we can conclude that any business or politics agreemeets with China may become invalid some day 😉 So should really worry about it.:laugh:

And he said about so-called Taiwanese' will. So we can also conclude that the current constitution in Taiwan with obvious evidence saying Taiwan cannot be secessioned, is also invalid.:laugh:

And the current fact is that many people in Taiwan are eager to move and have moved their home to mainland China, the commie prison as some guy said. So we can also conclude that some people in Taiwan are born to be stupid and weird.🙂

Enjoy your weekend and start with a new week. And continue this bla bla... Really interesting🙂

Heh, sure it's my opinion that those elite communist doesn't represent 1.2 billion Chinese. But hey, at least that opinion is based on facts. If the communist party feels they represent Chinese people, why don't they have an open elections, Chinese will elect them anyway correct? Why sensor anything? Chinese people will only support them more if they know all the facts right?

And don't worry about Taiwanese and our consititution, really intelligent people are not bind by piece of paper. If the consitution is correct peopole will follow, if it does't represent the will of people, people will make amendment to it.

As to those Taiwanese moved to China, there will always be people who wanna live in a country where everything is cheap and you can buy a wife with a college degree with little money. They want to live under the rule of communist party, hey that's their freedom, and Taiwan as a civilized and democratic country is not gonna stop those people.

Finally mansnake's quote, that's the most rediculuse thing I'v ever heard. I don't mean no respect to the American people here in the forum. The US has spoken and it must be right and both side of people must follow? I mean come on, how little self respect you guys have as Chinese to let a foreign power determine how Chinese/Taiwanese people live our way of life? Not to mention things change every 4~8 years depends on who is in the white house. Just because at this point in time, it is in American's best interest that 2 side keeps the peace, it doesn't mean that Taiwanese should forever shut up and live by the rule set by the white house right now.

Oh and don't get me wrong, I don't like current Taiwan politicians pushing for independence, I think it risk lots what we have now and gains little in International politics. But what I don't like even more is China think they can tell how Taiwan should choose our way of life, and if they don't get their way, they point missles at us or threatens all kinds of things. All those thing does it make everyone in Taiwan feels even worse towrds mainland, and make peaceful reunification or co-existance possible. What Chinese people need to understand is that Taiwanese are free and democratic people. Threatening by force and bullying might work with those illiterate who used to follow the authority, but not us.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
Enh. 🙂

You dragged issues about slavery, but I have to say you missed the history and math. Hope u not to disdain them.

not true. At most about 50 years. And as kibbo said, the quarrel about Federal legitimate govement continued after the 1950. Even now, although many separtionists did not like it, the constitution in Taiwan still insisted that its gov represented not only Taiwan, but also the whole mainland

Who gives a f*ck if I'm off 10-20 years? Even by your own admission the taiwanese people lived free and by themselves for a half century and now you want to conquer them now and make them submit to your government?

God damn you really are a brainwashed communist mouthpiece trying to impose your ideas and government on free people.

And about slavery, I hope I did not miss something.

Firstly, some slavery states joined the North in the civil war and still maintained slavery for a long time after the war.

You're wrong. You're a retard and you don't even know it.

The 13th amendment abolished slavery in the US in 1865, the final year of the civil war.

Maybe you need to stop taking government controlled history lessons and propaganda.

Secondly, Lincoln said for many times that he did not want end the present slavery in the South. He just hoped the South did not spread the slavery to the new states or got separated out of the Fedearl states. The South was not satisfied with it and thought they have the right to be independent as long as they hope so. (Actually before the war the United States did not explain clearly whether single state had the right to be separated.) Many people in North opposed slavery because they found it disturbed the industry and turned US as a single raw material supplier for UK. Do not think many of them are so nobile and kind. In the long negotiation with the South, they even suggested sending all slaves back to Africa and making some compensation to slave-owners. Unluckily the poor Federal cannot pay so much and persuade the South. (The South was quite richer than the North at that time!)

Thirdly, even in the South after war, Afr-americans did not enjoy much more practical benefits than before. The JimCrow Laws and many barriers still maintained the unjustice until the Civil rights movement.

The war is not fought for abolishing slavery, just for punishing secession actions. Slavery is a major cause for conflicts. But if you said the North fought for abolishing slavery, you are thinking too highly of Yankees. (very rude word at that time ):disgust:

And despite all this Lincoln ultimately stood up and did the right thing.

No matter how you spin it, the outcome ultimately gave people freedom. Unlike China subjugating Taiwan and making them give up freedom.

And finally back to the present world. Many many people in Taiwan had automatically moved to mainland China , a big prison, because of evil sirens and paid tax to the commies:laugh:

And I also need to remind you that the anti-session law was just suggested not by some commies like you said, but by an old overseas Chinese who moved to UK many years ago..

It seems that some guys just cannot distinguish ideologic quarrels from the historic complex I mentioned.

But just hope you not let this influence your judgment based on history and math.

Who cares where taiwanese are going. Ideological whores come in all colors including yellow. Many business people in taiwan go there to make easy money. But also I know some Chinese nationals that came to the US and have nothing but bad things to say about mainland china, that human life is cheap there. What does that say to you??

And if you really did believe that china is such a great place, why not just let the tawainese who do want to be a part of china go their by their own free will instead of saber rattling and trying to subjugate everyone? You're a hypocrite and you don't even know it.

Why don't you stop posting, go back to harvesting organs from your political prisoners and farming the next variant of SARS.

 

[Chinadefender]

See how some grumpy guys say. :disgust:

I have understood that you do not want China to be unionized bacause mainland China is not free or democratic, right? So stop barking against me because I said mainland Chinese regards it as a historic complex. These are two different questions. Please not lose basic judgment. 😎

And for slavery, perhaps a new post was needed. Some guys may do some research on related information about Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri if they are interested. And I do not dare to post anything about slavery any more because some guy would come to scare me when they stop spreading AIDS to the world. :thumbsdown:

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
now you are playing word games. its like two musicians argueing who is the king of pop. it is irrelevant to reality.
and you really need to pickup a critical thinking text and look at how logic works. you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid😛 let alone the conclusion.

If you say they are flawed, I would like to see you refute them in a formal manner. Your 'you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid' doesn't do you any good here. I fear you are the one who needs to pick up a logic book and learn about deductive reasoning.

 

[ManSnake]

Finally mansnake's quote, that's the most rediculuse thing I'v ever heard. I don't mean no respect to the American people here in the forum. The US has spoken and it must be right and both side of people must follow? I mean come on, how little self respect you guys have as Chinese to let a foreign power determine how Chinese/Taiwanese people live our way of life? Not to mention things change every 4~8 years depends on who is in the white house. Just because at this point in time, it is in American's best interest that 2 side keeps the peace, it doesn't mean that Taiwanese should forever shut up and live by the rule set by the white house right now.

How is my argument ridiculous? TIers always want to bring Americans into the picture whenever Taiwan-China issue is being discussed. As an American, I am simply showing the TIers what US sees in regard to the Taiwan-China issue. You can try to refute my argument, but simply saying that 'the most rediculuse thing I'v ever heard' is itself very ridiculous imo.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: ManSnake

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
now you are playing word games. its like two musicians argueing who is the king of pop. it is irrelevant to reality.
and you really need to pickup a critical thinking text and look at how logic works. you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid😛 let alone the conclusion.

If you say they are flawed, I would like to see you refute them in a formal manner. Your 'you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid' doesn't do you any good here. I fear you are the one who needs to pick up a logic book and learn about deductive reasoning.

your premises are flawed. just look at number two. the definition of one china is different for each party. pretending that difference does not exist is lazy or dishonest. and number one is basically absurd and irrelevant to an arguement. you don't even really follow the form of a syllogism. all you did was write three lines, 2 invalid premises leading to an invalid arguement.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
See how some grumpy guys say. :disgust:

I have understood that you do not want China to be unionized bacause mainland China is not free or democratic, right? So stop barking against me because I said mainland Chinese regards it as a historic complex. These are two different questions. Please not lose basic judgment. 😎

Historic complex my ass. Did it ever occur to you to ask the people of taiwan, without fear of repercussion, if they would WANT to be part of China? Most that I know of want nothing to do with China. Many taiwanese have already moved on and China needs to stop acting like a baby, grow up and let go.

All the people of earth share the same lineage of humanity but that DOES NOT GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT TO SUBJUGATE OTHERS.

And for slavery, perhaps a new post was needed. Some guys may do some research on related information about Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri if they are interested. And I do not dare to post anything about slavery any more because some guy would come to scare me when they stop spreading AIDS to the world. :thumbsdown:

God damn you're a dumbass. A constitutional amendment is NATIONAL LAW. It supercedes state law and state government. What individual states say or try to do after that is irrelevant.

source

That's funny that you're accusing anyone of spreading AIDS, considering China probably has over 1 million HIV positive individuals. Don't even mention bird flu, hong kong flu. You really need to stop reading state controlled news.

 

[cchen]

China is more occupied with ideals rather than practical concerns. The "One China" policy assumes the cooperation of Taiwan, though Taiwan has never accepted the policy.

The Chinese are trying to use their power as a nation to threaten Taiwan, bullying its way to gain what it wants. China has more manpower, and a much stronger military. Taiwan would have no chance against the much more advanced Chinese army. Does that mean China has the right to intimidate Taiwan?

Bush even stated in 2001 that the US would ?do whatever it takes to defend Taiwan,? after increasing the sale of arms to Taiwan with a multi-billion dollar package.

China also tries to use America as an accessory to the principle, stating ?China-U.S. relations encounter trouble? when the ?one China? principle is not observed. It is China that has caused the periods of disruption in U.S.-China relations, such as the incident with the downed plane off the Chinese coast. This incident did not involve economics or Taiwan; it was a conflict based on China?s communist political system. If China were democratic, the US would not have had to negotiate for eleven days over the return of the jet and the crew; furthermore, China?s silliness showed when it basically forced the US to say that we were ?very sorry? for the plane?s landing. America does not condone communism, and would not let a communist country gain one of our democratic and strong economic allies; in other words, ?America?s one-China policy is dead.?

Taiwan is not someone else?s local government and not someone else?s province. Taiwan is a sovereign nation and has been for many years.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: WalkingDead

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Actually I'm white.

Edited: After I didn't feel like smashing WalkingDeads face in.

Most of the white guys don't even know what the hack is Aksai Chin and let along rant over it. Did I got on your nerve? Just because the indian doesn't have the ballz to reclaim that high ground, don't take it off on me.

I think India should set an example for the PRC by giving up on Kashmir and stop beating up Nepal and Bangladesh.

Why don't you stop the genocide/assimilation in Xinjiang and Tibet?

I propose the EU and India take in all of those if they really care that much.

Maybe cause the white boys you know are stupid?

Anyways Kashmir is part of India. Kashmiri's aren't fighting the battles with Indian soldiers, foreigners from Pakistan are.

The Tibetan and Xinjiang movements are homegrown and for good reason.

And how do you propose the EU and India take these lands in? China has 1.3 billion people and a huge army. This would have to be a UN mandate.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: WalkingDead

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
The Chinese are imperialists plain and simple. At least 1/3rd of their land was taken after 1950.
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enh...:disgust:

Illiterate words......

Know nothing about world history and do not care about it.

In fact US took new Mexico State via war and betray.

Damn excuse me! We took/stolen/ripoff 100% of our land! All ya mexicans, indgens and Canadians come get em back if you can! 😛

Ignore that Proletariat dude, he's just a grumpy Indian that's still hang up on the brits once ruled them, Pakistan and Bangladesh left them and the PRC beated them in 1962.

Actually I'm white.

Chinadefender - I know the US took Mexico but that doesn't give you the right to take anything you want in the current century. Why don't you stop the genocide/assimilation in Xinjiang and Tibet? America does not participate in such things anymore.

Edited: After I didn't feel like smashing WalkingDeads face in.

Really? Well you seem to be interested in Indian actors and other things about it, well at least thats what I saw the other day and other things. Ok well, nvm ... im off to watch some Conan O'Brien .....

I'm white as can be. My friends that are girls are interested in Indian actors. That is why I posted that.

I am also interested in Indo-European history. As in Europe, Iran, India etc.

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: ManSnake

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
now you are playing word games. its like two musicians argueing who is the king of pop. it is irrelevant to reality.
and you really need to pickup a critical thinking text and look at how logic works. you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid😛 let alone the conclusion.

If you say they are flawed, I would like to see you refute them in a formal manner. Your 'you use the term syllogism yet your premises aren't even valid' doesn't do you any good here. I fear you are the one who needs to pick up a logic book and learn about deductive reasoning.

your premises are flawed. just look at number two. the definition of one china is different for each party. pretending that difference does not exist is lazy or dishonest. and number one is basically absurd and irrelevant to an arguement. you don't even really follow the form of a syllogism. all you did was write three lines, 2 invalid premises leading to an invalid arguement.

Reading comprehension anyone? If you would have read it carefully I am arguing from the American perspective. Why don't you try and 'debunk' the facts that I have laid out. Really you should just quit and stop embarrassing yourself any further.

 

[0roo0roo]

look you pos. for one you confuse ethnicity with nationality, and you can't seem to fathom that one may hold more than one of each. no point argueing with you and your false dilemas, flase analogies, and silly simplistic definitions, taking a few simliarities and ignoring all differences until your arguement is basically absurd. not all chinese want to live under a tyranical communist dictatorship. get that through your thick skull. and relying on words of diplomacy? lol, thats just pathetic. diplomacy involves little lies to cover up or avoid problems. diplomacy involves pride and parties agreeing to lies to save face. diplomacy is not about logic.

 

[Chinadefender]

Tired of Oroo's illogic words.

Diplomatic facts are also facts. It is ok that one could reasonably draw conclusion based on those facts and syllogism. This also could be used to predict other diplomatic things.

You may mock the result, but cannot mock the reason process and simply said the premise is flawed.

Some guy just cannot distinguish their opinions from facts. It is irony that he relentlessly said any existing facts he did not like are not true but silly assumptions, and therefore others' deduction is flawed.

Diplomacy is not logic. Logic just means reasonable deduction based on facts and clear, structured process.

And I do not think mansnake should believe all people have read books about logic. This is a fact, and you can draw a conclusion that fussy and unreasonable trouble-making cannot be avoided in the world. This is life...........

 

[DigitalX]

I am Taiwanese. I support independence. Will die to defend, if time comes.

Those China lovers in Taiwan don't support unification, they just want to make their money as usual, and war is not to their best interest.

Look at what happen to Hong Kong, their system, their economy, their freedoms are going down the drain. What happened to the 50 Years of no change?...

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
The Chinese are imperialists plain and simple. At least 1/3rd of their land was taken after 1950. There is no negotiating with these people. I really think America will eventually be involved in some sort of conflict with them in the future.

Their national boundary under the Manchu (Ching Dynasty) was much larger than their current boundary before the western powers and Japan carved up their country after the unequal treaties were forced down their throat by the British after the Opium Wars.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Promethply

Originally posted by: Proletariat
The Chinese are imperialists plain and simple. At least 1/3rd of their land was taken after 1950. There is no negotiating with these people. I really think America will eventually be involved in some sort of conflict with them in the future.

Their national boundary under the Manchu (Ching Dynasty) was much larger than their current boundary before the western powers and Japan carved up their country after the unequal treaties were forced down their throat by the British after the Opium Wars.

Tibet and Xinjiang were independent nations for thousands of years. I have never approved of Western Imperialism, but you can't use that as an excuse to attack sovereign nations.

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Promethply

Originally posted by: Proletariat
The Chinese are imperialists plain and simple. At least 1/3rd of their land was taken after 1950. There is no negotiating with these people. I really think America will eventually be involved in some sort of conflict with them in the future.

Their national boundary under the Manchu (Ching Dynasty) was much larger than their current boundary before the western powers and Japan carved up their country after the unequal treaties were forced down their throat by the British after the Opium Wars.

Tibet and Xinjiang were independent nations for thousands of years. I have never approved of Western Imperialism, but you can't use that as an excuse to attack sovereign nations.

Not really -- under the Chinese's last dynasty, Xinjiang (which was named by the Manchus), and Tibet were under their rule.

 

[DigitalX]

One country, Two system...What does that suppose to mean?

Does that mean mainland China's political system will stay like hell forever?

Does the first system have to be Communism, so the rest of China can turn into a hell?

It's not even 10 years since the hell day in 1997, Hong Kong's way of life have truned upside down, where is the freedom of....anything, what happened to 50 years of...., Total Communist BS.

We never want to entrap ourselves and those "Chinese" on the mainland to eternal Communist rule.