Taiwan History

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Because of the China threads I got a little curious about the history of Taiwan. As with any broad historic subject, I'm sure there interpretations within interpretations, etc. But the broad thrust of the accounts is that Taiwan belongs to China. If you have different information, this would be a wonderful thread in which to post it. If you have a different opinion, I'm sure we'll hear that too.

If you Google "Taiwan History," the first number of entries are to Taiwandc.org. I don't know what this organization is, but it's history of Taiwan is extensive and not flattering to our buddy Chaing Kai-Shek, whose people killed between 18,000 and 28,000 Taiwanese in 1947 and established a set of camp counselors, the Kuomintang [sp? and that's sarcasm. The KMT were particularly unpleasant secret police]. But, I think it's pretty clear that Taiwan did belong to [The Peoples Reupblic of] China (or its predecessor). China ceded the place to Japan in 1895. It was given back to China as part of the WW II settlement.

One other source that is perhaps more nuetral is the Lonely Planet Guidebook. Lonley Planet. The introductory text is reproduced below. Note the Chinese takeover in the 1600s.

Taiwan History

Little archaeological evidence remains from Taiwan's early history. People - probably Pacific Islanders at first - may have lived here for about 10,000 years, with migration from China beginning in the 15th century. In 1517 Portuguese sailors reached Taiwan and named it Ilha Formosa, or beautiful island. The Dutch invaded in 1624 and built a capital at Tainan - two years later they lost the island to a Spanish invasion, but returned the favour by booting the Spanish out in 1641. During the 1660s the Ming and Manchu dynasties arrived on the scene, kicking out the Dutch and wrestling one another for control of the island. The Manchus eventually won, making Taiwan a county of Fujian Province and triggering a flood of Chinese immigration.

Japan took Taiwan from China in 1895 and held on to it until the end of WWII, when it was handed back to China. When Communist forces took control of China in 1949, the president, General Chiang Kaishek, and his nationalist party, the Kuomintang, fled to Taiwan to plan their reconquest of the mainland. They're still planning. One and a half million Chinese also left the mainland for Taiwan when Mao took control. The leaders of both Communist mainland China and the Republic of China (Taiwan) claim to be the voice of all China, but the international community has, almost without exception, chosen the mainland. In 1971 the Kuomintang lost the Chinese United Nations seat, and in 1979 the USA withdrew its recognition of the Republic.

When Chiang Kaishek died in 1979 and was replaced by his son Chingkuo, Taiwanese started muttering the word 'dynasty', and criticism of the one-party system rose. In 1986, those opposed to Chiang formed the Democratic Progressive Party, and were granted seats in the legislature. Two years later Chiang died and was replaced by the first native-born president, Lee Tenghui.

Taiwanese politics is divided among those who want reunification with China (the Kuomintang line), those who want Taiwanese independence and those that want the status quo preserved. In 1995 relations between the two Chinas, always chilly, plummetted to a new low. Lee Tenghui's high-profile visit to the United States brought mainland China out in a rash of nervous jealousy. Determined to isolate Taiwan and sway the minds of its voters, China held intense military exercises near the Taiwanese coast. In response, the United States donned its global cop hat and sent a couple of warships to monitor the situation. Despite the region's sudden high concentration of itchy trigger fingers, the first direct presidential election was held without incident, and Lee Tenghui was returned to office.

 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
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we oppressed and killed tens of millions of native americans to establish our democracy here. but we gave them casinos in return. not that we're even. but take a look at what china does now and what taiwan does now.

we supported corrupt deng who was pro-democracy in vietnam, we settle for any right wing nut whose anti-leftist such as trujillo ect ect
 

Pepsei

Lifer
Dec 14, 2001
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I don't feel like beating a dead horse anymore.

But it was the nationalist party (Taiwan's old ruling party) that pretty much made it hard for Taiwan to be another state by insisting on one China policy in the beginning.

Cliff note: PRC never own Taiwan, Not even Ching dynasty had possession of it in the beginning. Anyawy, after WW2 it was given to the Chinese government at the time, which is ROC, Civil war RE-erupted after through out China, ROC got its butt kicked and retreated to Taiwan. (Both sides were corrupt, but I believe the Nationalist were not well liked by the people much)

USA backed ROC, and ROC had a seat in the UN. (hmm, does that mean PRC at the time is not an independent country?) fast forward to Carter who changed side and recognized PRC as the one and only China and gave PRC a seat on the UN and removed ROC. (They had a big and cool embassy in DC too)

IF the dictator and/or the nationalist in Taiwan, back then, treated the seperate state similar to what happen with North/South Korea, we wouldn't have a problem today. (wait, that happen afterwards, I guess NK and SK learn from the mistake of China/Taiwan)

You can look at "history" and come up with different versions. Different groups of people would give a different arguement.

There's 1) the pro Chinese group that wants to take Taiwan by any means, then there are 2) people who wants to keep things the way it is, or 3)the people who wants Taiwan to become it's own country, finally, last but not least, 4) the older generation of nationalist who had the dream of re-taking China by invading the mainland (really, it might have worked 2-3 years after they lost the civil war, and with USA's backing, but impossible today).

I'm leaning towards 3), and hopefully, the USA would restart cold war and maybe China's communist state will fall apart like USSR and then, China perhaps with Tibet, and Taiwan will become a Federation. Wow, maybe I can write a historical science fiction.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Whitling
But the broad thrust of the accounts is that Taiwan belongs to China.

What is your definition of China? Does the government currently ruling China represents China or does the Chinese people represents China?

If you are talking about the communist government ruling China currently, they have no claim to Taiwan. It was China under Chiang KaiShek and his KMT that defeated Japan, and it was that government Taiwan was returned to by the Japanese in 1944. Communist China never had authority over Taiwan, commuunist Chinese military never set foot on the island. Taiwanese maintains a strong enough military to protect themselves from an outright invasion for the past 50 years, Taiwanese has an autonomous government and political system, and one of the strongest economy in Asia.

If you are talking about the Chinese people, which transcends party, government and political idealogy, China does have claim to Taiwan (IMHO). Everyone of the Taiwanese on the island can trace their ancestry back to China, well except those Pacific Islanders that first lived there, which is probably less than 2% of Taiwanese populations. Taiwanese takes different aspects of Chinese and Japanese culture and create a unique culture of their own. But Chinese culture is still the main driving force. The school teaches and the society practice Confucianism. The school history class teaches the 4000 years of Chinese history rather than the island's couple hundred of history. Most Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese, and are proud of their Chinese heritage. And in that sense I believe Chinese do have claim to Taiwan because Taiwan is part of the Chinese history.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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I have some quibbles with your post but appreciate it, particularly the second paragraph. It's a stretch of the imagination to say that " It was China under Chiang KaiShek and his KMT that defeated Japan." A more accurate statement would be that Chaing was recoginzed as the legitimate government when Japan was defeated. It's a bit of a stretch to say it was "returned by the Japanese." The decision was apparently made by the Western powers. Doesn't the history page say they were in Egypt at the time? While we're stretching things, "Taiwanese maintains a strong enough military to protect themselves from outright invasion." Yeah, and the U.S. 7th fleet in the Straits of Taiwan didn't hurt either.

Alas, the Chines people, or the American people for that matter, don't own anything in the way of countries. Most of the people on this board, right and left, probably wish that the people really did own the country.
 

Pepsei

Lifer
Dec 14, 2001
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Yeah, even with my dislike of mainland Chinese Commies, I still see myself as having Chinese blood, perhaps it would be better for all the people if reunification happens after the destruction of "the party".

People of Taiwan, in addition to the "national language" (spoken form, aka Mandarin, same as the China's national language), they have their own dialect too.
 

Imdmn04

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2002
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Originally posted by: Pepsei
Yeah, even with my dislike of mainland Chinese Commies, I still see myself as having Chinese blood, perhaps it would be better for all the people if reunification happens after the destruction of "the party".

People of Taiwan, in addition to the "national language" (spoken form, aka Mandarin, same as the China's national language), they have their own dialect too.

Which is the same local dialect from the fujian province, even the local dialect of taiwan traces back to the nearby province of fujian in mainland.

Although the current PRC did not have claim in Taiwan, China did for a couple hundred years in the Qing dynasty, and it is only during that period of time taiwan's population grew from all the chinese immigration(mainly from Fujian). It would not be the taiwan that is here today without the flock of chinese people. Then it was given back to China(not PRC) after WWII, although the current government of China had no claim of Taiwan, but there is a denying in that Taiwan was a part of China.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Whitling
I have some quibbles with your post but appreciate it, particularly the second paragraph. It's a stretch of the imagination to say that " It was China under Chiang KaiShek and his KMT that defeated Japan." A more accurate statement would be that Chaing was recoginzed as the legitimate government when Japan was defeated. It's a bit of a stretch to say it was "returned by the Japanese." The decision was apparently made by the Western powers. Doesn't the history page say they were in Egypt at the time? While we're stretching things, "Taiwanese maintains a strong enough military to protect themselves from outright invasion." Yeah, and the U.S. 7th fleet in the Straits of Taiwan didn't hurt either.

Alas, the Chines people, or the American people for that matter, don't own anything in the way of countries. Most of the people on this board, right and left, probably wish that the people really did own the country.

Yeah, I meant defeated Japan in Chinese Theater not in the sense of WW2. You do have to recognize that Chinese fought Japan long and hard years before American committed to WW2. And without Chinese holding much of the Japanese military in China, American may not have won some of the important battle fought in the Pacific and South East Asia.

The decision to return Taiwan was not only made by the Western powers. China at the time, under Chiang was recognized as one of the major power, holding veto power in the post WW2 UN, and it was a decision made by all major powers including China, (The meeting in Cairo) who contributed in winning WW2, to have Taiwan returned. Russia got their East Germany, Western power got their West Germany, and China got Taiwan back from Japan. It was a result of Chinese contribution and sacrifice in the WW2, not because westerner felt pitty on the Chinese and gave it for free.

And yes, of course US support of Taiwan was a major reason Taiwan is here today. But IMHO, it was a partnership, not just one sided contribution from the US. Taiwan could easily been another Vietnam but Chiang Kai Shek and his son recognized their mistakes in China and build a strong military, reform the farming and education system and build a strong fundation that helped the economy to take off. Even though the Chiang family rule was authoritarian and many people died or jailed from opposing the government, majority of the people had money in thier pocket and rice on the table. The ability of Taiwanese people and government to create a stable society and a strong military, together with the help from US military was the reason China has not invaded Taiwan. First, Chinese government want the fruit of Taiwanese labor, the stable society and the strong economy. Second, China knows that they will get resistance if they do attack, and it won't be a small effort or a sure victory.
 

chuckieland

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2000
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i find in this thread, people use facts and know not to mix in personal opinion as fact.
compare to the other thread with kage69......
Pepsei
just say it how most taiwanese feels in the situation.
history fact are correct but i feel i need to add more information to this quote
"Not even Ching dynasty had possession of it in the beginning"
Ching dynasty doesn't possession because ming dynasty government possession
kinda like the current situation, unfinish civil war, two chinese government. but ching dynasty eventually ended ming dynasty.

rchiu's veiw cannot be say better on issue. Clear statement with facts (something Kage69 should really learn)

As for Whitling
I have to strong disagree with you on your quote
"It's a stretch of the imagination to say that " It was China under Chiang KaiShek and his KMT that defeated Japan." A more accurate statement would be that Chaing was recoginzed as the legitimate government when Japan was defeated. It's a bit of a stretch to say it was "returned by the Japanese." The decision was apparently made by the Western powers. Doesn't the history page say they were in Egypt at the time? While we're stretching things, "Taiwanese maintains a strong enough military to protect themselves from outright invasion." Yeah, and the U.S. 7th fleet in the Straits of Taiwan didn't hurt either."

is my believe and history knowledge
that Chiang Kaishek and his KMT did the most of battle vs Japanese. compare to the mao government. Mao's chinese government didn't do much on fight the japanese.
Chiang and KMT fight japanese alone for 4 year, the ally join the battle for the next 4 year to lead to victory. i think Chiang and KMT deserve this more then Mao.
(i know the facts that chiang was busy try to kill Mao then try to fight Japanese at first, but hey you gotta admit, Chiang was right. Japanese will not be able to take entire China, but Mao can, and Chiang's worse nightmare came true).

Taiwan did maintain a strong enough military to protect themselve after they lost the civil war
few reason
1. Mao didn't have any navy, over taking taiwan is impossible for Mao at the time, Chiang and KMT has Navy, battle ship...etc
2.Aug.23 19XX(i forget the exact year)
Mao lunach day & night artilery attack in hope to take the outer island from Taiwan. but Chiang and KMT fought them off, and won.
3. at the time Taiwan don't need 7th fleet to protection them.
because Mao didn't have Navy. 7th fleet was actually there in favorite of Mao.
I believe after Chiang and KMT regroup at taiwan, they still go the upper hand on military. it was actually the 7th fleet that stop Chiang from taking the fight back to mainland China.
USA did that for 3 major reason.
1)USA didn't want to see any more war going on. (main reason on the table)
2)USA really don't like Chiang, i believe USA give Chiang a nickname call General Gismo
3)Chiang reject USA's proposal.
USA proposal, unlimited support of weapon to help Chiang to retake mainland China, but Chiang got to give out taiwan.

On a personal note I have more respect for Chiang then Mao (not because i am taiwanese)
Chiang would rather lose the Huge mainland China, then see a foreigner take ownership on llittle part of China.
also undeniable facts Chiang, Chiang's son, and KMT's strong effort, make Taiwan the strong ecomonic and rich.
As for Mao, I can't believe he let the outter mogolia go. it doesn't matter what kind of pressure, if it was Chiang and the KMT, they would fight the russian to the last drop of blood.
also Mao's Big lead forward ..........

anything before the personal note, is base on study of history in taiwan and Canada. source maybe different then yours.
anything after the personal note, is base on my personal believe.

 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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I really appreciate the facts and perspectives that have shown up here.

Chuckie, with respect to China's victory over Japan, I acknowledge that China fought Japan long before the U.S. got in the war. But's my opinion that blocking Japanese shipping and two atom bombs won the war, not China, which was pretty busy defending itself.

Yes, I know about Chaing and the KMT fighting the Japanese while the communists went on the Long March.

But, please supply clarification about the outer islands. I remember Kemoy and Matsu (spelling) being shelled. But I don't remember any aggressive action by Taiwan to defend the islands. Was there such action or did the mainland Chinese just get tired of shelling?

Chaing was called the "Generalissimo." That may or may not be Spanish, I wouldn't know. It might sound like "General Gismo," but the name was given because of his strutting and posturing (in a figurative sense.)
 

ManSnake

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
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In the 1600s, when the Dutch occupied the island, a general named Zheng Cheng Gong from the Ming Dynasty defeated them and took back the island. That's how the modern day Taiwanese came to be. You can often hear that they call themselves descendants of Zheng Cheng Gong. But what I find funny about Taiwan now is this, there seems to be this hatred towards the WSR (new immagrants from mainland after the civil war, many of them born and raised in Taiwan) among the people that came from the mainland during the 1600s.

These people only consider themselves Taiwanese and view WSR as Chinese, they think Chinese and Taiwanese are two entirely different ethnicities although their ancestor Zheng Cheng Gong is widely considered as a hero of China. How do I know this? I have spoke to many so-called Taiwanese on the CNN's China/Taiwan board back in the day.

Anyway, regarding America's position on the issue of Taiwan independence, consider this for a sec:

When China and the U.S. formally established diplomatic ties in 1979, the communique had the following words: "The United States of America recognizes the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China. Within this context, the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people of Taiwan... The Government of the United States of America acknowledges the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China."

In a later joint Communique, America stated that: "The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves."

From the above, this syllogism can be used to quiet down those pro-independence folks that think they are Taiwanese and not Chinese (TIers):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The Taiwan question is to be determined by the Chinese on both sides of the Straits.

2. All Chinese recognize one China, and Taiwan as part of that China.

3. Taiwanese are not Chinese if they do not support one China, and therefore has no say at the matter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So TIers are the true trouble makers, trying to drag American military into an internal problem of the Chinese.

 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Originally posted by: Whitling
I really appreciate the facts and perspectives that have shown up here.

Chuckie, with respect to China's victory over Japan, I acknowledge that China fought Japan long before the U.S. got in the war. But's my opinion that blocking Japanese shipping and two atom bombs won the war, not China, which was pretty busy defending itself.

Yes, I know about Chaing and the KMT fighting the Japanese while the communists went on the Long March.

But, please supply clarification about the outer islands. I remember Kemoy and Matsu (spelling) being shelled. But I don't remember any aggressive action by Taiwan to defend the islands. Was there such action or did the mainland Chinese just get tired of shelling?

Chaing was called the "Generalissimo." That may or may not be Spanish, I wouldn't know. It might sound like "General Gismo," but the name was given because of his strutting and posturing (in a figurative sense.)

Quemoy (Kinmen) and Matsu are the two most strategic location in defending Taiwan Strait. Quemoy is much closer to China then to Taiwan, and Matus is in the middle. Both island is heavily fortified by Taiwanese military. China made many attempts to take over Quemoy but never successed. The attemps included shelling and attempt to land the island with forces. I think the biggest attempt was a 2~3 days effort with a couple thousands soldiers by the Chinese to land Quemoy, and Taiwanese force drove them back; I believe that was in the 50's/60's. In the 70's, it more like customary daily shelling and occasional show of force type of thing. There was so much bomb shells in Kemoy that people there made cutting knife with those, and Quemoy knife became a famous item. Recently I have not heard any military activities over there and Matsu is now more of a tourist attraction. Quemoy seems to become a trading port between chinese and Taiwanese fisherman and traders these days.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Originally posted by: ManSnake
In the 1600s, when the Dutch occupied the island, a general named Zheng Cheng Gong from the Ming Dynasty defeated them and took back the island. That's how the modern day Taiwanese came to be. You can often hear that they call themselves descendants of Zheng Cheng Gong. But what I find funny about Taiwan now is this, there seems to be this hatred towards the WSR (new immagrants from mainland after the civil war, many of them born and raised in Taiwan) among the people that came from the mainland during the 1600s.

These people only consider themselves Taiwanese and view WSR as Chinese, they think Chinese and Taiwanese are two entirely different ethnicities although their ancestor Zheng Cheng Gong is widely considered as a hero of China. How do I know this? I have spoke to many so-called Taiwanese on the CNN's China/Taiwan board back in the day.

Anyway, regarding America's position on the issue of Taiwan independence, consider this for a sec:

When China and the U.S. formally established diplomatic ties in 1979, the communique had the following words: "The United States of America recognizes the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China. Within this context, the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people of Taiwan... The Government of the United States of America acknowledges the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China."

In a later joint Communique, America stated that: "The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves."

From the above, this syllogism can be used to quiet down those pro-independence folks that think they are Taiwanese and not Chinese (TIers):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The Taiwan question is to be determined by the Chinese on both sides of the Straits.

2. All Chinese recognize one China, and Taiwan as part of that China.

3. Taiwanese are not Chinese if they do not support one China, and therefore has no say at the matter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So TIers are the true trouble makers, trying to drag American military into an internal problem of the Chinese.


While those pro-independence folks who think they are Taiwanese and not Chinese usually become the first one running over to China when there is money to be made or pretty girls to date, you can't based this entire conflicts on a political statement made by American Administration at one point in time, and totally ignore those people's opinion.

Taiwan question should be determined by Taiwanese people, it is the fate of Taiwanese people and only they can decide for themselves. Not Chinese people, not American government. I do hope Taiwanese people have the intelligence to become part of China when Chinese government opens up, but that's just me.
 

UltraPenguin

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Nov 25, 2003
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I consider myself TI (Taiwan Independence); and as somone said a trouble maker. I was born in Taiwan and attended grade school there.

If you are talking about the Chinese people, which transcends party, government and political idealogy, China does have claim to Taiwan (IMHO). Everyone of the Taiwanese on the island can trace their ancestry back to China, well except those Pacific Islanders that first lived there, which is probably less than 2% of Taiwanese populations. Taiwanese takes different aspects of Chinese and Japanese culture and create a unique culture of their own. But Chinese culture is still the main driving force. The school teaches and the society practice Confucianism. The school history class teaches the 4000 years of Chinese history rather than the island's couple hundred of history. Most Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese, and are proud of their Chinese heritage. And in that sense I believe Chinese do have claim to Taiwan because Taiwan is part of the Chinese history.

It is laughable to legitmatize China's claim on Taiwan based on "shared culture" or "shared ancestry". By that logic, China could claim shared culture and ancestry with half the countries in the region! Like you said, Taiwan has its own unique cultural identity, a mix of Japanese and Chinese influences.

Roughly 85% of Taiwan's population are "native", while 15% are mainlander that came after 1949. There are definate tension between these two groups. Many natives resent the mainlanders due to years of opression. Many of the older natives don't even speak the "national language", they speak Japanese and the local dialect. I would say the majority of the native population has no desire to reunite with China, they simply see no connection with China. Like it or not, the native Taiwanese consider themselves superior to the Chinese on the mainland.

Taiwan question should be determined by Taiwanese people, it is the fate of Taiwanese people and only they can decide for themselves. Not Chinese people, not American government. I do hope Taiwanese people have the intelligence to become part of China when Chinese government opens up, but that's just me.

It is also my hope that the people of Taiwan be able to decide their own future, whether its unification, independence or othe status quo without threats from China. I think that without China threatening, the people of Taiwan would choose independence (else would China be saber rattling before elections?). Most Taiwanese see no connection with China, they know they are ethnically Chinese, but they feel no compulsion or desire to reunited with China.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
26,967
35,580
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i find in this thread, people use facts and know not to mix in personal opinion as fact.

I see chuckie is still failing to wrap his brian around the original problem I had with what he said, not that I'm surprised. His comparison of the US Civil War and the Taiwan situation isn't the same, short of civil war being involved. (The Communists never possessed Taiwan, while the Confederate states were indeed part of the Union - he chooses to ignore this and instead spout off about stars on flags or childish generalizations involving apples.)


As many have pointed out, in an ethnic sense Taiwan is indeed part of China. In a political sense, it never was and probably never will be. The Communist party established itself 2 months before the Nationalists did themselves on Taiwan. The important distinction here is that the Communists never held power in Taiwan, and the residents of Taiwan have repeatedly shown they have no interest whatsoever in being governed by a Communist regime.


It is also my hope that the people of Taiwan be able to decide their own future, whether its unification, independence or othe status quo without threats from China. I think that without China threatening, the people of Taiwan would choose independence (else would China be saber rattling before elections?). Most Taiwanese see no connection with China, they know they are ethnically Chinese, but they feel no compulsion or desire to reunited with China.

I too share that opinion. It's really too bad chuckie isn't right in this respect - if China were no different than the US, China would allow Taiwan a vote on it's own direction, sans all the intimidation.
 

chuckieland

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2000
3,148
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Originally posted by: kage69
i find in this thread, people use facts and know not to mix in personal opinion as fact.

I see chuckie is still failing to wrap his brian around the original problem I had with what he said, not that I'm surprised. His comparison of the US Civil War and the Taiwan situation isn't the same, short of civil war being involved. (The Communists never possessed Taiwan, while the Confederate states were indeed part of the Union - he chooses to ignore this and instead spout off about stars on flags or childish generalizations involving apples.)


As many have pointed out, in an ethnic sense Taiwan is indeed part of China. In a political sense, it never was and probably never will be. The Communist party established itself 2 months before the Nationalists did themselves on Taiwan. The important distinction here is that the Communists never held power in Taiwan, and the residents of Taiwan have repeatedly shown they have no interest whatsoever in being governed by a Communist regime.


It is also my hope that the people of Taiwan be able to decide their own future, whether its unification, independence or othe status quo without threats from China. I think that without China threatening, the people of Taiwan would choose independence (else would China be saber rattling before elections?). Most Taiwanese see no connection with China, they know they are ethnically Chinese, but they feel no compulsion or desire to reunited with China.

I too share that opinion. It's really too bad chuckie isn't right in this respect - if China were no different than the US, China would allow Taiwan a vote on it's own direction, sans all the intimidation.

Kage69
the very difference between our view is
your are pro seperatist, wants Taiwan to seperate as Republic of Taiwan (currently only has 20% dreamer in Taiwan)
i am pro facts, Taiwan is already indenpend as Republic of China. (we has China Airline, ROC military, ROC is legitment government after Ching government).
even though i agree that communist should not interfer with Taiwan's freedomm but put yourself in the other guys shoes, if you are on the otherside, you did be screaming for war if taiwan(ROC) has been invade takeover by republic of Taiwan.
Therefore i believe people in Taiwan should have the option to choose whether to unification with PROC, or stay as ROC. To creat another nation by any mean is wrong. this land is pass down from ancestor.
after all this is unfinish Civil war, and i hope whichever option both leader choose, it can be a peaceful one.
Notice when ROC speak they are indenpend as ROC, and PROC doesn't own Taiwan. all Communist China do is emphize on 1 China policy.
Notice when Seperatist speak to form Republic of Taiwan, then there is big fuzz from the Communist.
I really don't like you using misleading fact,(only take half the facts to favorite your opinion, just so forget to mention the the other half) also your speaks for half the facts, plus your opinion, plus flamming show what kind of person you are.

If US Civilwar Cannot be apply to Chinese Civilwar, then how can puerto rico been apply to this issue
Puerto rico is NOT a States of USA. it's a commonwealth (lookup in the dictionary, please)
Election is not about puerto rico want to seperate from USA, it USA telling puerto rico to make a choose.
1)become a State for USA, Join for GOOD (no leaving after that, USA army will make sure that, if kage69 don't believe it, ask the confederate states. They try to leave, but loss the war.)
2) Stay as commonwealth (stay in the beta testing program, but you don't get the full us citizen rights)
3)go back to their own way (as nation of puerto rico)

Kage69
i would only agree to your puerto rico example
if Puerto Rico has already become a states, there is one more star add to the USA flag.
and the usa government say: States of Puerto Rico can have a election to choose if they want to Seperate from USA for good.( we all know that ain't happening, not even USA government would give such option)


 

chuckieland

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: kage69
I too share that opinion. It's really too bad chuckie isn't right in this respect - if China were no different than the US, China would allow Taiwan a vote on it's own direction, sans all the intimidation.


Each people has different view on this, just because you think you are right on the issue, doesn't make other people's view wrong. you are very bias, and cannot accept other poeple's opinion, personal attack on agurement is what you do best.
for me, what ancestor pass on to us, is mean to remind in one piece to pass to our children
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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chuckie, I could sit here all day and extoll all the reasons that still prove you wrong (Taiwan never being part of the Communist goverment for example, it proves your point about Peurto Rico being wrong) but I'm not going to help fragment Whitling's thread anymore than it has been already.

It really looks like you're just grasping for anything to argue over now, my second post was stated as opinion, and didn't attack anyone other than noting the obvious reality that the PRC isn't in the business of letting Taiwan make it's own decisions and enjoys intimidating it's inhabitants.

Please grow up.
 

chuckieland

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2000
3,148
0
0
Originally posted by: kage69
chuckie, I could sit here all day and extoll all the reasons that still prove you wrong (Taiwan never being part of the Communist goverment for example, it proves your point about Peurto Rico being wrong) but I'm not going to help fragment Whitling's thread anymore than it has been already.

It really looks like you're just grasping for anything to argue over now, my second post was stated as opinion, and didn't attack anyone other than noting the obvious reality that the PRC isn't in the business of letting Taiwan make it's own decisions and enjoys intimidating it's inhabitants.

Please grow up.


whatever man, look yourself in the mirror. you can never provide me wrong, not without facts to back it up.
usually when i state someone else is wrong, i find facts. but you just use one word. no facts, no reason but your personal opinion.
For example
i never state Taiwan is part of Communist (try to misleading again)
I states Taiwas is belong to Republic of China (which is facts)
You keep talk like Puerto Rico is officially Parts of USA, which is wrong, USA currently has 50states, Puerto rico is not one of them, Puerto Rico is COMMONWEALTH, please look that up in the dictionary.

Kage69
ANSWER THIS QUESTION and forget everything else. No more misleading tactic
DO you or do you not agree, the situation between taiwan and china now, is a result of unfinish civil war
if yes, then that mean all your statement is full of sh!t, Civil war mean war within a country. both side certain has right to claim land that oppositing own (because they used to be one)
if No, then read the history text book again, you'll not find anything to disagree with me.(if you do, please site your source)

Knowning you, you did prob not answer the question, and just type with one of following two method
1) break the facts in half, and only take what you need to make your agurement. and of course i'll be there to make sure the whole facts is heard, but you'll call the non mention facts unrelate to the issue.
2) one word answer, but with no facts or reference to back it up. (sole reason, you can't find any)

Remember one thing, Majority of member on Anandtech live in USA.
if my source is wrong on puerto rico, they'd jump on it already.

last, Kage69
if you can be so kind, please Define "Commonwealth", I want to make sure you understand.
 

UltraPenguin

Member
Nov 25, 2003
27
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Therefore i believe people in Taiwan should have the option to choose whether to unification with PROC, or stay as ROC. To creat another nation by any mean is wrong. this land is pass down from ancestor.

How about a third option, independence? With no threat from China, I wonder which choice the people of Taiwan would choose? Its so tough! I'm thinking the Taiwanese would want to join the communists, with the splendid political, social and economic freedoms. Or maybe they prefer to remain isolated internationally as the ROC.




 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Ah, The Chuckie and Kage Show! So refreshing to us all.

I do not think that the analogy of Taiwan to Puerto is instructive. Taiwan was occupied by the Chinese before the modern concept of nation states came into being. At that time, occupation and possession were probably sufficient to support a claim for nationality (as the concept of nationality evolved). Puerto Rico clearly has never been a part of the U.S. nation. It has been a territory. A "territory" is usually defined as a geographical location physically separated from the administering country but subject to the laws and jurisdiction of the administering country. We have never claimed Puerto Rico as a part of this nation. We have administered it. We consider annexing it. But that's not the same as being part of the nation. We have never claimed Puerto Rico as a part of the U.S. The same cannot be said for Taiwan.

Having said that, I'm not sure how one would reconcile the 17th and 18th century concepts applying to Taiwan with the 20th century concepts applying to Puerto Rico.

I think the argument about what the Taiwanese want is specious if you accept the U.S. model as the correct one. We did not allow the southern states to sucede. Likewise, every once in a while the Loyal Order of the Yahoos declares some part of the U.S. independent. It is never acknowledged. Politics being what they are, local constituencies seldom want to be forced to join a larger entity. The frogs in the small pond like feeling big. They don't want to be integrated into the larger system.
 

ManSnake

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
4,749
1
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Originally posted by: UltraPenguin
Therefore i believe people in Taiwan should have the option to choose whether to unification with PROC, or stay as ROC. To creat another nation by any mean is wrong. this land is pass down from ancestor.

How about a third option, independence? With no threat from China, I wonder which choice the people of Taiwan would choose? Its so tough! I'm thinking the Taiwanese would want to join the communists, with the splendid political, social and economic freedoms. Or maybe they prefer to remain isolated internationally as the ROC.

...and you think by changing the name to Republic of Taiwan is going to gain you international recognition? Keep on living your pipe dreams!
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
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Originally posted by: UltraPenguin
I consider myself TI (Taiwan Independence); and as somone said a trouble maker. I was born in Taiwan and attended grade school there.

It is laughable to legitmatize China's claim on Taiwan based on "shared culture" or "shared ancestry". By that logic, China could claim shared culture and ancestry with half the countries in the region! Like you said, Taiwan has its own unique cultural identity, a mix of Japanese and Chinese influences.

Roughly 85% of Taiwan's population are "native", while 15% are mainlander that came after 1949. There are definate tension between these two groups. Many natives resent the mainlanders due to years of opression. Many of the older natives don't even speak the "national language", they speak Japanese and the local dialect. I would say the majority of the native population has no desire to reunite with China, they simply see no connection with China. Like it or not, the native Taiwanese consider themselves superior to the Chinese on the mainland.

It is also my hope that the people of Taiwan be able to decide their own future, whether its unification, independence or othe status quo without threats from China. I think that without China threatening, the people of Taiwan would choose independence (else would China be saber rattling before elections?). Most Taiwanese see no connection with China, they know they are ethnically Chinese, but they feel no compulsion or desire to reunited with China.

I attended grade school there too and I know what you are talking about. I know there are people who actually perfers Japanese rule then the Chinese Nationalist rule. And they feel superior to the mainland Chinese because of the Japanese influence/culture. In fact, some of them love Japan more than China. That's a shame because Japanese certainly don't love them as much nor see them as equal. Taiwanese were at best second class citizen during the time of Japanese rule.

It's true that many Taiwanese thinks they don't have any connection with China. Yet every major business in Taiwan have moved their factories to China. Many businessman goes overthere, get a mistress and build a second family there. Nobody is thinking about what's good for the future of Taiwan, or what how they can contribute to make Taiwan an independent, strong country. Graduates out of college can't find a decent job in Taiwan, in fact, many people actually go to China in hope to find a job with Taiwanese companies over there. If Taiwanese really wanna be independent, they better walk the talk.

And I don't know what you are talking about regarding half of the country in the region shared common culture and ancestry with China. Are you talking about Japan/Korea/Vietnam? Through out the history, those people were never seen as Chinese and they were never really part of China for extended period of time, and when I say history, I mean over the last 4000 years. Taiwan is different, Taiwanese were Chinese as recently as 200 years ago and Taiwan was never a sovereign nation. I do understand the hatred of many Taiwanese have towards mainlander because of KMT rule, but that's not a reason to forget where you come from and who you are.
 

Imdmn04

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2002
2,566
6
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It is laughable to legitmatize China's claim on Taiwan based on "shared culture" or "shared ancestry". By that logic, China could claim shared culture and ancestry with half the countries in the region! Like you said, Taiwan has its own unique cultural identity, a mix of Japanese and Chinese influences.

Roughly 85% of Taiwan's population are "native", while 15% are mainlander that came after 1949. There are definate tension between these two groups. Many natives resent the mainlanders due to years of opression. Many of the older natives don't even speak the "national language", they speak Japanese and the local dialect. I would say the majority of the native population has no desire to reunite with China, they simply see no connection with China. Like it or not, the native Taiwanese consider themselves superior to the Chinese on the mainland.

Umm.. no only about two percent of the Taiwanese population is truly "native" as in pacific islanders, the rest came in from fujian province in mainland during the the Ming and Qing dynasty. After that, another flock of chinese came with KMT around 1949. Those 85% that think they are native are not really native, even though they came before 1949. So i dont know why are they looking down on their own people.

And for the last time, Taiwan does not have their own language, the so-called local dialect is just the local dialect of fujian province passed down from the earlier immigrants. Even if you can call it your own, you still need to use chinese for writing so you can hardly do anything with this so called language(which really isnt a language, but a local dialect from the southeast part of China).