Syria :struggles: with the 1.5 MILLION recent influex of Iraqis....

[magomago]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6989795.stm

good article in the BBC and it makes some important points I want to highlight:

It is after midnight in a dimly lit square in the Damascus suburb of Sayyida Zeinab.

A bus rolls up, then another and another. Tired, bewildered faces step out, sleeping children on their shoulders as they pull their few belongings from the luggage holds below. They are Iraqi refugees.

Every night it is the same scene here. Some 2,000 arrive each day as the exodus from Iraq continues, four years after the US and British invasion.

At least 1.5m have come to Syria, more than to any other country in the region.

But what the United Nations calls the biggest refugee crisis in Middle East since the flight of the Palestinians is still getting little attention from the outside world.

My God - one and a HALF million dispalced Iraqs in SYRIA. This doesn't count the repressive Jordinian authorities, this doesn't count the millions internally displaced within Iraq itself....this is Syria ALONE. How many of you can actually envision 1.5 million people? I think that perhaps the number is so high that we almost emphasize it less just because at this point 1.5 million people sounds more like a number and a statistic than something that we can sit here...close our eyes eyes and go "ZOMG...that is a lot of people!"

Camp threat

With the massive loss of trained and educated people from Iraq, many fear it could even further set back Iraq's chances.

And with no end in sight, the influx is already having serious consequences for Syria. Its population has grown by nearly 10% because of the refugees - the equivalent of six million people settling in the UK in just a few years.

As Syrian authorities have so far allowed the refugees to live freely rather than in camps, it has led to overcrowding in many parts of Damascus.

Basic services like power, water and sewage are under severe strain. Complaints are beginning to be heard from Syrians about the impact on their already stretched economy.

Isolated because of its disagreements with the US, the authoritarian government hoped it would win some international credit for looking after the Iraqis - and more help.

It has not come, and with no end in sight the authorities have told the BBC they are now having to tighten up. They may set up refugee camps near the Iraqi border.

For those who don't read this stuff:
a) Loss of many educated people in Iraq. That isn't a good thing
b) Basic Syrian services are being pushed to the limits - you can be hospitable, but there is a limit in which that is reached. Hell - we reached our "limit" in just a few MONTHS with the Katrina victims.
c) Syria obviously didn't do this purely out of an honest heart - It was hoping that treating the Iraqis well without being like fvcking death stalker Jordinians would be the start of gaining international approval that could eventually bring them out of isolation right now. But the world has not cared...and Syria is starting to think it doesn't care.

Syria should remember if it toughs it out - 1.5 Million people won't automatically forget the help that they received...and if they pull a Jordan on them, well - it'll be like going to group meetings and always seeing that arsehole who you want to punch because he kicked you when you were down...but instead you settle for pwning him in your day dreams.

Dr Feisal Mekdad derides the help he says has been offered so far by the US.

"We hear they have donated $17m," he told the BBC. "But frankly compared to what they are spending in Iraq this is pocket money."

So many have settled in Sayyida Zeinab, it is now known as Little Baghdad.

The main road is now called Iraqi Street, full of shops and cafes catering to Iraqi tastes and with names like Fallujah restaurant and Baghdad bakery.

That was expected to take care of 1.5 million refugees? Honestly I can't attest at all to where the money may have went...and prior Syrian history doesn't allow for much faith. But, if I remember correctly, one of the reasons we are staying there according to our Republicans (or at least the candidates in their debates. Youtube FTW) is because "we broke it so we must fix it"...so where is the "fixing" with this issue? Or is a solution to them tossing around more money without producing results. Our politicians - Dem and Repug - really loves to spend our money.

Brain drain

There I met 14-year-old Saif, who fled southern Baghdad with his family three years ago. He has not been to school since then.

This is one of the biggest concerns now, that so many refugee children are not getting an education.

At the moment, he works in his father Yussuf's streetside cafe.

"I'd like all my children to be educated," he says. "But we can't afford it. If Saif went to school, I'd have no-one here to help me."

A lucky few, the children of richer Iraqi families, do have opportunities. We visited a private university set up by an Iraqi businessman where more than half the students are Iraqis.

In the engineering department, Mohammed told me he planned to study next in Europe for a master's degree. Eventually he wants to be an oil engineer, "but not in Iraq", he says firmly.

It is all part of a catastrophic brain drain.

"Now the situation in Iraq is like that in 1970," says Professor Hikmet al-Shaarbaf, the dean of medicine, who left a similar post in Baghdad two years ago.

"All the educational progress made in the 1970s
and 1980s has melted away."

SQUARELY on this administration. We can't say Saddam denied education at all to any group of people, or that Iraqis "never wanted to learn". When the country didn't have its own professors it literally imported them from all parts of Europe, Asia, and elsewhere to teach them in English.

The other day I was listening to Tomy Leykis (if anyone knows who that is) and he was talking about how racist the idea that the South Central LA government is with its new initiative: ban the creation of new fast food restaurants for two years. Why? Because they wanted to encourage the primarily black population to eat healthier. Some callers talked about how the blacks just don't KNOW...they don't have a CHANCE to learn about eating "healthy", they were never given the OPPORTUNITY to learn about it...when the reality is they have the SAME access to all other information that rich people have. They aren't denied a library, the internet is there for all, etc. etc. and that for these people it comes to a simple issue: the choices we make.
But look at this situation right now. This is a chance WHERE THEY ARE ACTUALLY DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY. Here is a situation where people want their kids to be educated, but can't send them because then survival itself becomes an issue. There are times when I don't like education because I'm tired of school - and its starting in less than two weeks for me - but when I read about how other Iraqis ~ people from which I descended from ~ are being denied education...I realize that APATHY towards the opportunity to advance is the product of living in a society where too much is taken for granted. Perhaps it should be systematically denied before we will learn to always reach for it?

And the worst part for Iraqis? Many still want that education - but they won't want to work in Iraq. The reasons could be many and range from being so traumatized by what they experienced they can't go back, or believing it will never get better but instead of saying that and facing up to what the reality is right now they just say "I want to work elsewhere, not Iraq".

Hope amid despair

The UN's refugee agency (UNHCR) set up a new reception centre this year to handle the growing numbers. Its existing office in the city centre could not cope. But even with a large converted warehouse and more staff, it is struggling.

When we visited, hundreds of people were waiting to get an appointment for an interview.

All will be told they have to wait at least six months for their claim for refugee status to be considered. But many Iraqis are not applying, still hoping that they may eventually be able to return.

"The problem is that there doesn't seem to be an end to it," says Lawrence Jolles, head of the UNHCR office in Damascus. "Neither the refugees nor the authorities here know when it is going to stop."

In another part of Damascus, I met one recent arrival I know well. Mohammed and I used to work together in Baghdad.

Two months ago, Shia militia took over his apartment building. If they discovered he worked with foreigners, he was at extreme risk.

He had a good, well-paid job. He did not want to go. But he decided he had no choice.

"At any time someone could come and kick in my door, kill me or kidnap one of my kids.

"It was either my job or my life and my family's life."

However, like many Iraqis we met, he said so far he had seen no sign of the sectarian tensions still tearing parts of Iraq apart.

"All Iraqis live here together," he says. "Shia, Sunni, even Christians."

It is one sign of hope amid growing despair.

Here is a point I want to hammer in - notice how AGAIN the "sunnis, shia, and christians" all live together without an issue...because that is how Iraq really was. Dont' believe anyone who talks about how sectarianism has always existed because it is completely false

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: magomago
Here is a point I want to hammer in - notice how AGAIN the "sunnis, shia, and christians" all live together without an issue...because that is how Iraq really was. Dont' believe anyone who talks about how sectarianism has always existed because it is completely false

They realize that going after each other will not help them survive.

Inside IRaq, they have some type of support structure to fall back on and also encourage the revenge/hatred/frustration.

Pre-invasion, there was no chance to object if you were not one of the "faithful".

Syria is taking in all the refugees (to generate goodwill), yet refuses to close their border to those going the other direction.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: magomago
Here is a point I want to hammer in - notice how AGAIN the "sunnis, shia, and christians" all live together without an issue...because that is how Iraq really was. Dont' believe anyone who talks about how sectarianism has always existed because it is completely false

They realize that going after each other will not help them survive.

Inside IRaq, they have some type of support structure to fall back on and also encourage the revenge/hatred/frustration.

Pre-invasion, there was no chance to object if you were not one of the "faithful".

Syria is taking in all the refugees (to generate goodwill), yet refuses to close their border to those going the other direction.

This "support structure" in Iraq was created, maintained, and is currently growing on the power of the politicians. I agree such a structure could not, and would not exist, if it was not for the political situation that is trying to allow such a structure to grow and solidify. This did not exist before anywhere to the degree it does right now, and one was considered a fool to even talk about sunni shia bla bla. Even outside Muslim relations - Christians were not killed enmasse, Christians were not purposely denied advancement. They did pretty damned well there. Look at Iraqi history in the past and see if this idea of sunnis running around beheading shias, while both simultaneously kicking the arse of Christians is true (it isn't).
What you WILL find is that people did liveamongst one another- In Baghdad alone the city had three quarters, and even three slightly different dialects such that it was obvious if you were a Muslim, Christian or Jew based on one's vernacular. And for occasional problems that occur - tell me places where problems DOESN'T occur. Hell, protestants and catholics in Ireland can barely get their act together.

They didn't realize that going after each other will not help them survive....they already knew this long ago.

Here is something I wrote in a post with yyllus a while back and I think its very much applicable right here:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...089403&highlight_key=y

Here is where I will disagree. Take a group of people that have largely lived together without problems.

Now
a) have them go through an 8 year war with Iran
b) Have them go through well over 10 years of sanctions
c) Have them go through an [ed: cut out by me just now[ war that has cost their lives

now toss in politicians who say they will give them food, electricity, make things better, and of COURSE you will get people to believe in anything. They start to believe the extreme minority of cooks who talk about how they are "sunnis" and "shi'ites" that were dismissed just a few years back as "ignoramuses".
In this instance I believe the political leadershiop is a reflection of the interests that initially backed them. Ie: Iran, USA, etc. etc. and NOT the people. And in order to maintain that power, it works well to divide people...

 

[magomago]

As for Syria - I agree that not all is as it seems when they can't close it going into Iraq...but

a) Border security is probably a mess. You don't need a passport to get into Syria right now - so even death squad leaders (although rumored to be in Iran...) and other terrorists could easily escape. Of course if you now force the requirement of identification you are going to screw a huge portion of the people coming in that clearly aren't terrorists

b) Syria is walking the walk. Even when it comes to Jordan -they are walking a crooked walk...but they are still doing it. Its easily to hammer on them about what is suspicious, while ignoring what they are accomplishing right now.

If anything Common - our troops need to be on that border...because that is where we make the most difference. And that is where our troops can operate more effectively and safely without having to worry about an urban environment. Of course - even though I was once a proponent of that tactic - I'm over it now because I know our admin will still find ways to screw it up.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: magomago
As for Syria - I agree that not all is as it seems when they can't close it going into Iraq...but

a) Border security is probably a mess. You don't need a passport to get into Syria right now - so even death squad leaders (although rumored to be in Iran...) and other terrorists could easily escape. Of course if you now force the requirement of identification you are going to screw a huge portion of the people coming in that clearly aren't terrorists

b) Syria is walking the walk. Even when it comes to Jordan -they are walking a crooked walk...but they are still doing it. Its easily to hammer on them about what is suspicious, while ignoring what they are accomplishing right now.

If anything Common - our troops need to be on that border...because that is where we make the most difference. And that is where our troops can operate more effectively and safely without having to worry about an urban environment. Of course - even though I was once a proponent of that tactic - I'm over it now because I know our admin will still find ways to screw it up.

We cant even tighten our own borders much less another country's. At least we arent the only ones suffering the results of open borders

 

[Drift3r]

I wouldn't blame any Iraqi for leaving the mess we created. Who the hell would want to stay in the hell hole known as Iraq presently? Especially if you are well educated and run afoul of the religious zealots who have taken over ever since we deposed the secular regime in Iraq.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: magomago
My God - one and a HALF million dispalced Iraqs in SYRIA. This doesn't count the repressive Jordinian authorities, this doesn't count the millions internally displaced within Iraq itself....this is Syria ALONE. How many of you can actually envision 1.5 million people? I think that perhaps the number is so high that we almost emphasize it less just because at this point 1.5 million people sounds more like a number and a statistic than something that we can sit here...close our eyes eyes and go "ZOMG...that is a lot of people!"

Good god man! You're even more emotional than the BBC article :roll:

Yes, this is a tragedy, but judging how the palestinian "refugees" were taken care of, there's no doubt that this will end up the same way: they'll start putting them into camps, have the UN grant them special status, and then make the refugee-status hereditary. Naturally, they'll start asking for money to help the poor refugees -- money that will not doubt used for other puposes.

 

[Sinsear]

Better number than the 20 million Mexican "refugees" in the US.

 

[babylon5]

Syria must let anyone come into their border anytime they want at all cost. If not, they are just racist brown skin hating Nazis,
saids Pro-Illegals Liberal.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: magomago
My God - one and a HALF million dispalced Iraqs in SYRIA. This doesn't count the repressive Jordinian authorities, this doesn't count the millions internally displaced within Iraq itself....this is Syria ALONE. How many of you can actually envision 1.5 million people? I think that perhaps the number is so high that we almost emphasize it less just because at this point 1.5 million people sounds more like a number and a statistic than something that we can sit here...close our eyes eyes and go "ZOMG...that is a lot of people!"

Good god man! You're even more emotional than the BBC article :roll:

Yes, this is a tragedy, but judging how the palestinian "refugees" were taken care of, there's no doubt that this will end up the same way: they'll start putting them into camps, have the UN grant them special status, and then make the refugee-status hereditary. Naturally, they'll start asking for money to help the poor refugees -- money that will not doubt used for other puposes.

So I've been gone for a whlie, but that doesn't mean I can leave this un responded to.

Not really. An appropriate response for what has occurred. When over 2 million have to flee because of violence - to just calmly have no response is absolutely sickening as it shows you are devoid of emotions entirely.

What did even state? Let us use your method - the one where there are no emotions involved

-Disbelief that 1.5 million Iraqis are displaced.
-Emphasis that this is SYRIA alone.
-Emphasize further by drawing a comparison to how many can even think of 1.5 million people at once

No - these people won't be hereditary. They were kicked out of their land through violence, but unlike the Palestinians, they won't be stuck outside the country forever unless they choose to stay outside. Safe for the stupid visa laws, there aren't any creative B.S. laws by Iraq denied to purposely deny the people the land upon which they lived.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
I wouldn't blame any Iraqi for leaving the mess we created. Who the hell would want to stay in the hell hole known as Iraq presently? Especially if you are well educated and run afoul of the religious zealots who have taken over ever since we deposed the secular regime in Iraq.

The funny part is 4 years back Saddam was apparently a devil who sucked the blood of babies.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Syria must let anyone come into their border anytime they want at all cost. If not, they are just racist brown skin hating Nazis,
saids Pro-Illegals Liberal.

What?

If Syria treats them well - people will not forget. Want to talk about the hatred brewing towards Jordan (As if they don't have enough flak from the Palestinians already) with the way they treat Iraqis at the moment? Its ultimately up to Syria to decide....

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: magomago
Here is a point I want to hammer in - notice how AGAIN the "sunnis, shia, and christians" all live together without an issue...because that is how Iraq really was. Dont' believe anyone who talks about how sectarianism has always existed because it is completely false

They realize that going after each other will not help them survive.

Inside IRaq, they have some type of support structure to fall back on and also encourage the revenge/hatred/frustration.

Pre-invasion, there was no chance to object if you were not one of the "faithful".

Syria is taking in all the refugees (to generate goodwill), yet refuses to close their border to those going the other direction.

Maybe they took something out of our playbook? Illegals seem to just waltz in. Maybe its our attempt at "goodwill"

 

[Nymphaea]

good article... i don't think most ppl realize the dare situation of Iraqis' refugee crisis. And it's especially hard on the next generation... due to the current situation, it's hard for most of them to get a decent education now. When the outflow of talent > inflow of talent, it's VERY problematic... when a nation can't provide the opportunity for education, it's like a building lacking a good foundation~ back to square1, save the next generation and don't let them get screwed over like that =(

it's sad to see how ppl want to profit themselves by hurting others~ on a large scale, we see that in politics. On smaller scale, it happens everywhere, in our workplace, sometimes even in our family... but that's tangent off to a different story.