Switzerland considering providing basic income to all ($2500/month)

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Mandres

Senior member
Jun 8, 2011
944
58
91
God only made so much land ... If, all of a sudden, every citizen suddenly had $1k per month extra spending power then the only real effect we'll see is a sharp increase in prices.

People who are living in poverty now will still be living in poverty. The curve just shifts over. You could instead try to provide universal basic food, and universal basic shelter, and universal basic healthcare - but that's sort of exactly what we do now.
 

Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
4,000
2
0
Automation has gutted manufacturing quite a bit too. And who is actually okay with outsourcing? That's simply the system seeking to pay workers the lowest wage possible, which became a lot easier because of our friends in DC and Wall Street.


Automation, or more accurately, 'productivity enhancing technology' has been blamed for job loss quite a lot lately, but if this were so then about 80% of the workforce would be out of a job. About 150 years ago 85% of the workforce was engaged at one level or another in agriculture, but the advent of the farm tractor and other 'productivity enhancing technology' reduced the number of people needed to the current 5% of the workforce. This isn't what killed jobs!

As fewer people were working on the farm they were now available to work in factories and without the advance in farm tech there would not have been the people to make the manufactured goods. Ultimately the expansion of new markets and products employed all those displaced from the farm. BUT, in order for that to work you needed two things:

1. An expansion of new products and services

and

2. Those displaced had to have new jobs to do

All that was fine so long as the new jobs were here in the USA, but when those jobs were now being shipped to China and a myriad of other low cost places around the world the chain was broken.

Automation is the go to excuse for those defending outsourcing as it allows them to put the blame for job loses and declining wages on robots instead of the free traitors that have profited enormously from this chain breaking!


Brian
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,113
925
126
As I have thought about this level of socialism, I realize there are many people in our country, including young people, who think of and advocate for these kinds of things. Why do elections, mostly on the Democratic side, have campaigns based on social programs and giveaways, rather than things that put people to work and build our country great and strong?

How about if people don't like our America and the idea of working for what they have, perhaps they could move to where they do it their way?
Seriously, those people can fuck off!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,101
5,640
126
As I have thought about this level of socialism, I realize there are many people in our country, including young people, who think of and advocate for these kinds of things. Why do elections, mostly on the Democratic side, have campaigns based on social programs and giveaways, rather than things that put people to work and build our country great and strong?

How about if people don't like our America and the idea of working for what they have, perhaps they could move to where they do it their way?
Seriously, those people can fuck off!

Which are?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,446
7,508
136
God only made so much land ... If, all of a sudden, every citizen suddenly had $1k per month extra spending power then the only real effect we'll see is a sharp increase in prices.

It is redistribution and efficiency. Not inflationary. We're not printing money to achieve it. This is money already in the economy, we're just deciding where it goes and how easily it greases the wheels by moving from one person to the next.

Also... let's say someone is too poor to buy bread today.
Is it REALLY a problem if we increase demand by solving that hunger?
Supply can keep up.

Moreover, we're already giving people much, if not all of this money. We're just doing it in a piss poor way that'll never keep up with the growing reality of cheapening labor and increasing unemployment. Basic income is meant to future proof our economy by creating a floor at the bottom and using it as stimulus. It smooths out the bumps and dumps the thick bureaucracy in our current system.

Luxury items may remain volatile, but basic necessities that people must consume every month... it is not inflationary and should be a demand that we are already meeting. Or need to meet.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Automation has gutted manufacturing quite a bit too. And who is actually okay with outsourcing? That's simply the system seeking to pay workers the lowest wage possible, which became a lot easier because of our friends in DC and Wall Street.


So what manufacturing companies have laid people off because of automation?, feel free to add to this list.
America's Biggest Companies Continue To Move Factories Offshore And Eliminate Thousands of American Jobs

By Richard A. McCormack
editor@manufacturingnews.com

Despite a lot of talk and articles written about reshoring -- bringing production back to the United States -- offshore outsourcing of manufacturing and service-sector jobs to foreign nations continues to plague the American economy.

Hundreds of major American corporations are shipping thousands of jobs overseas, according to an analysis of Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA) filings made to the U.S. Department of Labor's Employment and Training Administration on behalf of the displaced workers.

While the trend is down from its peak, it has not fully abated, and there are many times more outsourcing events -- as per the TAA petitions filed with the Labor Department -- than there are reshoring (or "insourcing" or "onshoring") announcements, as per searches of media stories on www.news.google.com and www.news.yahoo.com.

A survey of petitions filed on behalf of workers to receive generous TAA benefits and training during the first three weeks of July, 2013, indicates that offshoring of American production and jobs -- as well as import substitution -- remains a fixture of the largest and most well known American companies. Seventy-seven petitions were filed on behalf of American workers, from companies such as IBM, Walgreens, International Paper, Sanmina Corp., Chicago Bridge and Iron, NCR, AT&T, Tenneco Automotive, Micron Technology and Honeywell, among others.

If it were not for the TAA program, few of these company decisions to displace American workers with foreigners would be known. The database is searchable at http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/taa/taa_search_form.cfm.

Here are some of the filings:

Flextronics Americas in Stafford, Texas, will lay off 147 workers because their jobs "are being transferred to Juarez, Mexico," writes Chrystal Broussard Johnson, a Workforce Account Executive at a TAA "One-Stop Operator/Partner."

Jabil of Tempe, Ariz., will lay off more than 500 workers making printed circuit boards and box-build assemblies for the medical, industrial and aerospace sectors. "We are in the process of moving several assemblies to other Jabil facilities in Mexico and Asia in order to reduce labor costs and meet our customers' pricing expectations," writes Jabil HR Manager Dawn Tabelak in a July 15 TAA petition.

Joy Global of Franklin, Penn., will lay off 245 workers making underground mining equipment because production is "being shifted to a foreign location, outsourcing increased imports, articles and services," writes Timothy Buck, a union official in York, Penn.

Phillips Lighting Company's Bath, N.Y., factory making finished lamps will lay off 265 workers because "production is being shifted to a foreign country," writes Amy Heysham, Director of Human Resources for Phillips.

Hewlett Packard will lay off 500 employees working in customer service and technical support in Conway, Ark., due to "global restructuring," according to Mazen Alkhamis, Business Solutions Analyst for the state of Arkansas in Little Rock.

DAK Americas of Leland, N.C., is laying off 340 full-time workers and 264 contract workers because it closed its entire production facility at its Cape Fear site due to dumped imports of competing products, according to Stephen Seals, DAK Americas' Senior Director of Human Resources. "Imports of PET resins have continued to rise in quantity over the last several years, especially from China and Oman," writes Seals. "The low price of these imports as well as the increasing volume continues to have a negative impact in the U.S. marketplace. For DAK Americas' Cape Fear site, it is the price suppression that these low-priced imports has brought with them that has been the most damaging. The continuing decline in prices has forced DAK Americas to rationalize capacity." Shutting down the Cape Fear PET resins manufacturing plant "would not be the outcome if the increasing volume of low-priced imports had not driven the manufacturing economics for this site beyond a state that cannot be maintained and be viable.

"DAK continues to participate in trade actions against these low-priced imports. There are three major trade cases for antidumping actions for Certain Polyester Staple Fiber products against Korea (A-580-839), Taiwan (A-583-833) and China (A-570-905) that remain active with trade actions aimed at controlling the dumping of fibers from these countries, yet the flow of imports continues to affect our business and the marketplace. As a result of continuing imports of those dumped products, DAK will be closing fiber manufacturing at the Cape Fear site. A significant portion of the Polyester Stable Fiber produced on-site will now be transferred and be manufactured in Queretaro, Mexico. . . Even with the renewed anti-dumping trade case affirmative actions against Korea, free-trade agreements with Korea were put in place that bolster the ability for these imports to continue. If imports were not given increased access to the U.S. marketplace for the products produced at DAK Americas Cape Fear site, the site would not be forced to rationalize capacity and shut down its operations resulting in the loss of approximately 600 jobs at the site."

Eli Lilly will lose nearly 1,000 sales representatives nationwide "as a result of the loss of patent protection from two of its best-selling drugs: Cymbalta and Evista," writes Susan Fracasso, Rapid Response Coordinator for the state of Connecticut in Wethersfield. "Those two products will be made generically, likely by facilities outside of the United States.

Charles Inc. of Council Bluffs, Iowa, will lay off 60 furniture workers. The reason: "Since mid-1990s, many upholstered furniture companies have been importing completely upholstered furniture, cut & sewn kits and raw materials from China, Mexico, Vietnam and other Southeast Asia countries," according to Lindsay Anderson, TAA Coordinator for the state of Iowa. "This has resulted in Charles Inc.'s inability to compete with them and be able to meet their prices. Charles Inc. has tried many different approaches, but the labor and material saving on imported products was too much for Charles Inc. to overcome."

PDM Bridge based in Proctor, Minn., will lay off 35 workers because the company is "losing local contract product bids in the last year to multinational and overseas buyers and producers of like and similar bridge products," according to Debra Schlekewy, TAA Coordinator for the state of Minnesota.

Honeywell Process Solutions, manufacturer of electronic industrial control units in York, Penn., will lay off 110 workers. "Company filed WARN stating closure in the first quarter of 2014 with layoffs expected to begin in August 2013," writes Terri Zimmerman of the Pennsylvania state government. "Per company official most of the work is transferring to Mexico."

Nordex USA Inc., maker of wind blades in both Jonesboro, Ark., and Chicago, Ill., will lay off 80 workers because production is "being sifted to a foreign country," according to Francene Miller of the Arkansas state government.

Tyco Electronics TE Connectivity/ ICT Division in Tullahoma, Tenn., a manufacturer of electronic connectors, will lay off 33 employees because "production has been shifted to a foreign country," according to workers filing on their own behalf.

Campbell Soup Co. in Camden N.J., has laid off 100 workers because their "services are being transferred to a foreign country," writes Patric Donovan, Employment and Training Specialist for the state of New Jersey.

Cooper Interconnected, a division of Cooper Wiring Devices headquartered in Peachtree City, Ga., will lay off 56 workers from its Salem, N.J., facility. "To meet competitive demands on product manufacturing, the plant activities are being transferred to a plant in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico," writes Randall Zimmerman, Director of Human Resources at Cooper Wiring Devices, on behalf of the workers. "Competitors are currently located in similar foreign locations."

Sensata Technologies of Attleboro, Mass., is laying of 16 employees because it is "transitioning manufacturing of burn-in test socket products manufactured in Phoenix, Ariz., to locations in China and Korea," writes Cheryl Stanton, Senior Human Resources Generalist at the company.

Motorola Solutions' Louisville, Ky., electronics repair facility will lay off 55 workers because their jobs "are being relocated and will ultimately end up in Mexico," writes Loretta Baker, Regional Trade Facilitator at the Kentucky Office of Employment Training in Louisville.

Sealed Air Corp. in Duncan, S.C., has laid off an undisclosed number of workers after it purchased Diversey Holding Inc., in 2011 and decided to outsource its information technology computer support to WIPRO in Pune, India. "Thus, the Sealed Air internal service desks in Europe, China, Brazil and Duncan were outsourced overseas to India and employees/contractors lost jobs," write three former workers whose names were redacted from the petition (received July 17).

Transportal of Charlotte, N.C., a company that transcribes medical records, laid off 25 workers when their jobs were "underbid by another company, Nuance, who offshores work," writes Dianna Rivera, TAA coordinator for the state of North Carolina.

NIDEC Motor Corp. in Paragould, Ark., is laying off eight workers making dryer appliance motors because production is "being shifted to a foreign country," writes Francene Miller, Business Solutions Analyst for the Arkansas state government in Little Rock, Ark.

Omega Engineering in Stamford, Conn., has laid off 40 employees making thermocouples. Omega "was acquired by Spectris (UK) in 2012," according to Michael Shavel, Career Development Specialists for the Connecticut State Labor Department. "In October, the company opened a Customer Service and Manufacturing facility in Shanghai, China. The welding department located in Stamford, Conn., was downsized from 45 workers to five presently. At a company meeting in 2012, Global Director James R. Dale announced plans to open facilities globally, including China, Spain and Brazil."

Walgreens in Mount Prospect, Ill., has laid off 23 data processing, mainframe operations workers. "Services (IT Operations) have been outsourced to Chennai, India, and Queretaro, Mexico," according to workers who submitted the petition. "All phone calls since March 2013 have been rerouted to these foreign countries."

Narroflex of Stuart, Va., will lay off 55 workers making textiles because of "increased imports of products [and] outsourcing to foreign countries by our customers," according to Robert Diesel, Narroflex Chief Financial Officer.

Keystone Printed Specialties in Old Forge, Penn., has laid off 40 employees in its lithographic printing department because the "company has lost customers such as Stanley/Black & Decker due to their production being moved overseas," write workers filing on their own behalf. "Company also lost business with Menasha Packaging Corp., and Packaging Corporation of America, Just Born Candy, Rock-Tenn Corp. and International Paper (formerly Temple-Inland). Increased outsourcing of the production of consumer packaged goods has negatively impacted the domestic production of corrugated and folding packaging [and] lithographic printed labels."

Council for South Texas Economic Progress is shutting down its call center in Winston Salem, N.C., because "as call centers nationwide are being sent overseas due to cheaper labor, call center workers are left with very few options for jobs and very little education to assist with finding jobs," according to workers filing on their own behalf. "Our call center is just one of many that are being shut down."

Staples' Columbia, S.C., accounts payable team will lose up to 20 jobs because its "processes are being shifted to India," write workers filing on their own behalf. "Accenture representatives have been trained at our shared service center as well as in India. The knowledge transfer will continue through the end of our term. On April 2, 2013, our management team announced the elimination of our positions to Accenture."

Here are other TAA petitions that were being considered by the Labor Department during the month of July:

IBM in Montpelier, Vt., will lay off 500 workers involved in design and manufacture of computer chips and hardware. "We have received information from IBM displaced workers and others that design, production and logistical operations are being outsourced to foreign facilities," writes Rose Lucenti, Director of Workforce Development in the Vermont State Workforce Office.

IBM will lay off 747 workers involved in computer manufacturing at three sites in New York, according to Susan Serviss, State TAA Coordinator in the N.Y. State Department of Labor in Albany. Serviss writes: "The company has contracted to support the development and application of hardware and software for IBM's mainframes. [IBM employees have] been training workers in China during the last few months of the worker's employment to perform the contractor's responsibilities using the procedures that the contractor had created. [M]ost of the operations at the Poughkeepsie site are gone to Brazil, India and now China."

Spartanburg Steel Productsin Spartanburg, S.D., has laid off 500 workers because it did not win a contract for automotive body stampings and weld assemblies from BMW in South Carolina. "BMW is changing car models and Spartanburg Steel was not able to retain all of the new parts for the new vehicle," writes Kelli Grant, TAA Operations Coordinator for the state of South Carolina. "Those parts will be produced by two foreign-owned companies that have plants in the upstate of South Carolina: Gestamp and Drive Automotive."

Atlas-Copco Drilling Solutions LLC / Dynapac in Garland, Texas, a maker of drilling equipment for strip mining and road machinery, will lay off 15 to 20 employees because "all Dynapac production was shifted to foreign countries," according to workers filing on their own behalf. "Roller machine was shifted to Sweden. And a new factory was built in China for the production of the Asphalt Paver. The Paver is to be marketed as an American Design to be sold to USA and Australia with the USA tier 4 emission standards developed at Garland, Texas."

Boeing Co. will lay off at least 1,000 workers at plants in Auburn, Wash., Everett, Wash., Payallup, Wash., Renton, Wash., Seattle, Wash., and Tukwila, Wash., "with more WARNed," writes Dean Tudor, of aerospace union SPEEA and Tom Wroblewski, the IAMAW District President in Seattle, Wash. "Production of Commercial aircraft has been outsourced to offshore locations," they write in numerous TAA petitions certified in July by the Labor Department. "The result of the outsourcing created assembly problems which has caused multiple locations in Washington to react by increasing manpower. The continuation of outsourcing after the initial increase has caused the company to decrease its workforce."

General Motors Powertrain division in Saginaw, Mich., has lost between 150 and 200 jobs involved in the raw and semi finished castings of blocks and heads. "A major portion of the production has been shifted to a foreign country resulting in the reduction in workforce at our facility," writes Harold Cripps, president of the local union. "About 75 percent of the heads we produced for the 5.3 liter V Head and 50 percent of the 5.3 liter blocks we produced will now be done in Mexico. We also produced Lost Foam 4 cylinder blocks that are now manufactured overseas in China and Korea. This process has been eliminated completely from our facility."

Kingston Technology of Fountain Valley, Calif., is laying off 80 workers involved in DRAM and Flash memory products for electronics because "our company has been and continues to shift primarily production work from the U.S. to China," writes company Human Resources Manager Denise Stevens. "Other groups affected include shipping, warehouse workers and to a lesser degree, finance, engineering and IT positions."

Hasbro Inc. has laid off 200 workers in Pawtucket, R.I., because "the industry as a whole is suffering due to Chinese imports, as well as new technology manufactured in foreign countries," write workers in their petition for TAA benefits. "Design for these products has also become frequently sourced to Hong Kong due to cost of labor in the U.S."

Perkin Elmer is laying off 110 workers at its Downers Grove, Ill., plant because it is "relocating two production lines to their Singapore facility," writes Susi Pihera, Rapid Response Liaison with WorkNet DuPage Career Center in Lisle, Ill. The facility was making medical instruments for laboratory use and radiation detection equipment.

Keithley Instruments, maker of electronic test and measurement equipment in Solon, Ohio, laid off 59 employees because the company "transferred the majority of [its] manufacturing operations to China in a staged process over the course of 2011-2013," according to Ontoinette Threatt, Workforce Planning Analyst at the company.

Cambridge International's Alloy Wire Belt facility in Modesto, Calif., is "being closed because they were moving it to Mexico to cut operating costs as the labor there was cheaper," according to Julie Odell, an Employment Program Representative for the state of California in Turlock.

Callaway Golf Balls has shifted production from its Chicopee, Mass., facility to China, Taiwan and Mexico impacting 23 workers, according to workers submitting the TAA petition.

Cameroon PCS, a maker of pressure vessels in Magnolia, Texas, has laid off 100 workers because "production has been outsourced to a foreign country. We were told to China," according to workers submitting the petition.

Caterpillar Inc.'s Mapleton Foundry in Peoria, Ill., is laying off 80 workers making engine liners and engine blocks because "the company is outsourcing engine block and head production as well as the finishing products," according to Lori Graham of the Illinois Workforce Network "The products have been outsourced to Technicost, a company located in Mexico."

Wonik Quartz International Corp., a maker of quartz glass for the semiconductor industry in Albuquerque, N.M., is laying off an undisclosed number of workers because "all parts of being outsourced to China because it is cheaper," according to the company workers submitting the petition.

General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products division in Saco, Maine, has laid off 100 workers making MK19 40MM Grenade launchers because the contract "was awarded to another company, Fabrique National (FN Manufacturing), located in Columbia, S.C.," write GD workers in their petition. "FN Manufacturing is a subsidiary of Belgian Herstal Group located in Herstal, Belgium in Europe."

Rockwell Automation of Milwaukee, Wisc., intends to lay off 45 workers in its global financial services group because a "letter of layoff from [the] company and [an] e-mail copied to some of the affected workers stating their jobs are being redeployed. . . to Poland," according to Roger Hinkle of the Milwaukee Help-In-Re-Employment (HIRE) Center. "People from Poland came to Rockwell to be trained."

A.A. Laun Furniture Co., based in Kiel, Wisc., will lay off 45 workers making wood furniture because "cheaper products and materials from overseas have made it impossible for American made furniture factories to compete, forcing them to go out of business," write the workers who submitted the petition.

Automatic Data Processing will lay off between 50 and 200 workers in San Dimas, Calif., because the company's services have been "outsourced to India," says Linda Ellen, TAA Analyst for the state of California in Sacramento. "Staff were required to train the associates from India in correct letter writing, communications and grammar."

Federal Mogul's Chicago plant has laid off 130 workers due to production being moved to Los Reyes, Mexico, according to Stacey Miller, the company's Human Resources Manager.

Sony Pictures Imageworks in Culver City, Calif., is laying off 100 workers involved in visual effects and animation because "the work is being outsource to Canada and India," according to Susan Campos, a TAA specialist with the state of California in Los Angeles.

Seco Tools based in Lenoir City, Tenn., is laying off 72 workers because "the manufacturing is moving to Seco plants located in France, Sweden and India," writes Jennifer Ostroff, HR manager at the company.

Baldwin Hardware, a subsidiary of Spectrum Brands (and a subsidiary of Stanley Black & Decker), in Reading, Penn., is laying off 166 workers making door locks and hardware because "production is being shifted to Nogales, Mexico," writes Sylvia Lehn, HR Manager at Spectrum.

Osram Sylvania in Winchester, Ky., is laying off 24 workers in its lighting division because "LED lamp assembly at the Winchester, Ky., facility is being transferred to the Juarez, Mexico, facility between 6/2013 and 9/2013," writes Janice Berryman, Osram Sylvania Human Resources Manager.

Agilent Technologies of Cary, N.C., is laying off 41 workers because "all production activities are being shifted to Agilent Technologies Inc. manufacturing facility in Penang, Malaysia," write workers filing on their own behalf. "All R&D functions are being transferred to Agilent Technologies Inc., in Waldbron, Germany."
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,446
7,508
136
As I have thought about this level of socialism, I realize there are many people in our country, including young people, who think of and advocate for these kinds of things. Why do elections, mostly on the Democratic side, have campaigns based on social programs and giveaways, rather than things that put people to work and build our country great and strong?

How about if people don't like our America and the idea of working for what they have, perhaps they could move to where they do it their way?
Seriously, those people can fuck off!

America used to work. Back in the 50s, 60s and (maybe) 70s we enjoyed a golden era. That came to an abrupt end, and since the 80s the American economy has only been in steep decline.

By what measure? Value of labor. Wages VS cost of living. Americans are poorer and growing moreso every single year.

We masked this great economic disease by employing women. Now both spouses can work their asses off for the same value men alone used to bring in. That is how we coped in the 80s, but the economic disease is progressing... it gets worse every year. In the 90s Americans had to work harder with longer hours, more full time employment, overtime, etc. Now both spouses are tapped out. Cannot possibly extract more effort to turn labor into value. Dot-com bubble masked some of that... then 2000 hit and we clearly suffered again. Solution? Houses! A house for you, a house for me... inflationary bubble for EVERYBODY!!!

Then it collapsed. The housing bubble was our final coping mechanism for dealing with this economically terminal disease. Americans compete with a global market abroad featuring slave labor and a flooded market at home featuring low skill illegals. You don't make !@#$ for money compared to your parents. Your children will BEG for the lifestyle you live today.

You need to WATCH, READ, and UNDERSTAND Robert Reich's message in Inequality For All.

You know the America he liked? The one your parents enjoyed. Where a man could pump gas and support a family. The one my parents tell me about, that his data confirms. Wages overs the past 30 years haven't done shit for us and we're all out of coping mechanisms. This labor well is dry. Today is our reckoning.

Step 1
is understanding where we are. Up !@#$ creek without a paddle. Reich covers that.
Step 2 is understanding where we're going. Little for labor and no employment. That's what I'll explain.

Automation is going to end the economy as you understand it. The floor is falling out, Americans are being left behind. Social welfare and services are expanding and there's no going back. You aren't going to change that. It's time that we, as humans, mature, use our brains, and adapt to provide solutions before we look like a third world !@#$ hole. We are rapidly heading that way.

Privilege today is having a job, home, and food security. We've got to do something about that. Smoothen out the bumps so people can be flexible and adaptable to an ever changing economy. Reorganize so that national production is turned into basic income.

We love America, we just want its people to survive the new era. The future looks nothing like the past.
 
Last edited:

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/24/new...teed-basic-income/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom


I could get behind this. Scrap all other forms of welfare and give everyone guaranteed income above the poverty line. Those who strive to do better for themselves will continue to do so.

The income would be unconditional and untaxed, and would replace various welfare payments. The Swiss government, which opposes the initiative, says it would have to find 25 billion Swiss francs a year to pay for the measure. New taxes, or spending cuts, would damage the economy, it says.
Can anyone partake in this cornucopia of abundance or will there be restrictions?

slovenia-migrants.jpg


migrants1.jpg


GTY_migrant_europe_09_mm_150904_4x3_608.jpg
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,063
48,073
136
What is it with you basic income guys and children? Children want to stay home and play XBox just as much as do adults. Not to mention that our current four trillion isn't within our means - roughly a third of it is borrowed each year.

There. Is. No. Free. Lunch.

Basic income is generally recognized by economists as being a superior and more efficient way in which to implement a social safety net. In our current situation people need housing, so the government makes a housing program. People need food, so we have a food stamp program, etc, etc. This eliminates those programs and replaces them with a basic income.

This superior efficiency is the same reason I support a consumption tax, by the way. It's not about ideology, it's about what works the best.

As for the cost, you are kind of missing an important element. If you increase taxes on everyone by on average $1,500 a month in order to provide enough for everyone to have a basic income that meets the FPL that's a huge amount of taxing and spending, right? The thing is that most people won't feel that because they are getting that basic income tax straight back. For most people you wouldn't even need to conduct a transaction. The actual costs would be only for people who currently fall below the FPL and that's a tiny fraction of what you were talking about.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,859
5,732
126
Good Lord, neither of you can multiply worth a damn, can you?


Let's take the easy one first. 315M people at $1000 per person. That's $315B....that's billion, not trillion. You move the decimal three places to the right and you have the answer, nothing else needed.


Now, 320M people at $2500 per person is harder. It has numbers other than 1 and 0. But here's what it multiplies out to---$800B. Again, billion, not trillion. And even that is less than SS's budget in 2015.


Then again, all the tax breaks in the tax code total $1.22T.

yes, because clearly there is only 1 month in a year.

:thumbsup:
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
My initial reaction to "basic income for all" was WTF, why are we going to be paying people who don't do anything? Why should tax payers pay money monthly to everyone whether they've earned it or not?

Unfortunately, the reality is that we already do it. We just do it in a piecemeal way. We have help and/or handouts for all sorts of stuff, and the percentage of the population that receives such assistance continues to grow daily.

If a "basic income" would be in lieu of the other benefits / handups / handouts the government already doles out, then in theory the overall budget impact would not be significant. It should be a heck of a lot more efficient to simply hand each person a check rather than have a million different departments trying to manage all the different kinds of assistance, determine eligibility etc.

I'm opposed to handing people money they haven't earned (excepting those who are unable to earn it of course), but from a rational perspective a blanket basic income is more efficient and much less prone to rigging/fraud/corruption and on and on.

There are two problems I see though. The first exists to some extent already but might get worse if you go to a basic income monthly payment: it creates a tremendous incentive for dumb people to pop out more kids. Each kid literally brings in a nice chunk of money. Currently, each additional kid can result in additional benefits, but it's not such a straight forward kid = $$ equation.

The bigger problem / risk IMO is what will happen over time: it starts out as a cash basic income in lieu of other benefits, but then people will still make poor choices and waste the basic income, gamble it away, use it on drugs, whatever, and then bleeding hearts will start pushing for special assistance to "those in need". Eventually you'll end up with a basic income monthly payment AND a stack of benefits like we have today. All with the taxpayer footing the bill of course.

I'm curious to hear other perspectives on that, as well as other potential pitfalls and possible solutions.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,580
15,795
136
Basic income is generally recognized by economists as being a superior and more efficient way in which to implement a social safety net. In our current situation people need housing, so the government makes a housing program. People need food, so we have a food stamp program, etc, etc. This eliminates those programs and replaces them with a basic income.

This superior efficiency is the same reason I support a consumption tax, by the way. It's not about ideology, it's about what works the best.

As for the cost, you are kind of missing an important element. If you increase taxes on everyone by on average $1,500 a month in order to provide enough for everyone to have a basic income that meets the FPL that's a huge amount of taxing and spending, right? The thing is that most people won't feel that because they are getting that basic income tax straight back. For most people you wouldn't even need to conduct a transaction. The actual costs would be only for people who currently fall below the FPL and that's a tiny fraction of what you were talking about.

These are great theoretical considerations but in reality many on basic income will spend the money on heroin or gamble it or do something similarly stupid with it. Then what will happen? Will we ask landlords not to evict people or will we let people go a month without food for them or their kids?
Solutions like this sound great assuming everyone acts rationally and for their best interest in the real world there are tons of people incapable of making the right decision. Similar to work events or holiday parties we all should be happy to have one or two martini's or similar drink but there is always that person who ruins it by having a dozen.
 
Last edited:

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
Switzerland is a high IQ country. You can get away with this stuff in a high IQ country. As long as you do not bring in a bunch of migrants or refugees from low IQ countries who will abuse it. People with high IQs can generate wealth and GDP even with a basic income. They will be motivated to produce. The mistake that people make is thinking that this type of will and motivation extends to people in low IQ leftist countries. You try this crap in one of those countries and you get Venezuela. Oh the difference 17 IQ points makes when looked at on a national scale.
 
Last edited:

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Good Lord, neither of you can multiply worth a damn, can you?


Let's take the easy one first. 315M people at $1000 per person. That's $315B....that's billion, not trillion. You move the decimal three places to the right and you have the answer, nothing else needed.


Now, 320M people at $2500 per person is harder. It has numbers other than 1 and 0. But here's what it multiplies out to---$800B. Again, billion, not trillion. And even that is less than SS's budget in 2015.


Then again, all the tax breaks in the tax code total $1.22T.

NM
 

Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
4,000
2
0
I've come to the conclusion, sadly, that the left has absolutely no greater grasp or reality than the drooling knuckle dragging right has and will promote stuff that has ZERO chance of actually working because ... they want it to work. I'll give them a scrap of credit for the mere act of trying to do something, which is more than I can say for the right, but in the end it's Unicorns and only Unicorns!


Brian
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Basic income is generally recognized by economists as being a superior and more efficient way in which to implement a social safety net. In our current situation people need housing, so the government makes a housing program. People need food, so we have a food stamp program, etc, etc. This eliminates those programs and replaces them with a basic income.

This superior efficiency is the same reason I support a consumption tax, by the way. It's not about ideology, it's about what works the best.
You sound no different than the republicans that wanted to give people direct access to their social security accounts because they know how to invest it best,

There is a reason we have all these programs, as imperfect as they may seem to you, with all their various restrictions, the last thing we need is people taking their "basic income" and blowing it on boos, smokes, lottery tickets, drugs, casinos, etc. and then have nothing left for basic things like food, clothing, shelter, kids clothes, etc.

Trickle down doesn't work, regardless if it is republican style or democrat style.
 

moddestmike

Senior member
Feb 21, 2006
260
0
71
I'll believe it when I see it...

Someone's going to pay for it and those folks don't like getting a negative ROI...


Brian

Basic income has shown to be cheaper, welfare benefits also provide stipends...usually for government produced foods etc...basic income would bolster private sector purchases, more than likely put a dent in the number of homeless and the cost of providing housing and food for them. It will basically rid them of the need for multiple government depts/employees to run social welfare programs and simply distribute a consistent income. You really have to think of all the ancillary parts to running a social welfare program vs just processing monthly checks. Banks should love this as well. Theres so much more that will be eliminated in terms of cost that you dont directly see but can understand with a bit of digging.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,749
4,558
136
As I have thought about this level of socialism, I realize there are many people in our country, including young people, who think of and advocate for these kinds of things. Why do elections, mostly on the Democratic side, have campaigns based on social programs and giveaways, rather than things that put people to work and build our country great and strong?

How about if people don't like our America and the idea of working for what they have, perhaps they could move to where they do it their way?
Seriously, those people can fuck off!

I would happily move to Germany for free trade school/college.

Bastards reserve it for Germans only. :'(
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
These are great theoretical considerations but in reality many on basic income will spend the money on heroin or gamble it or do something similarly stupid with it. Then what will happen? Will we ask landlords not to evict people or will we let people go a month without food for them or their kids?
Solutions like this sound great assuming everyone acts rationally and for their best interest in the real world there are tons of people incapable of making the right decision. Similar to work events or holiday parties we all should be happy to have one or two martini's or similar drink but there is always that person who ruins it by having a dozen.

Comrade Nickie has already thought of that of course (as have all those wonderful economists lol). What will happen is those people will get their Basic Income (and vote to make sure the Politicians who push it are re-elected, which is of course the most important part), then when they do exactly like you say and are short, <insert SJW whine> for why they (they being themselves and their children) won't then get to feel the effects of their poor decision(s). So of course, what will happen is exceptions will keep being made to cover all these scenarios for <insert SJW reasons>, and if you don't support those reasons, you're a <insert -ist!>. To top it off, when the already cooked numbers come out on how much it's all costing, those in support of the program and their Believers will shrilly scream, There is only 1% abuse!

Basically: Exactly what we have now, just, even more money spent.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
I don't agree with giving free money(and big money in this case) to poor, why? Because they are not willing to do anything for themselves, I know dozens of poor people and honestly they won't move a finger to do any work, to get a job, to learn something new, they only watch soccer all day long while consuming junk food combined with cheap alcohol and tobacco. One per several thousands of support recipients will use it to create better life for themselves but the rest won't do shit, as much as I try to be fair to everyone, truth is, these people suck, they are dysfunctional morons and will never ever change. If govs won't improve enterprising environment, lower taxes etc but choose to fund utter idiocy instead, we won't see economic growth anyhow.