Sweet, 600 rpm lower :)

[Howard]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Lol you guys are telling me doing 120 km in overdrive that my RPM dropping is BS. Why did it drop then? I was at 3000 rpm before at 120 always, and now I'm like 2500 ish give or take...

Well, if the only thing that changed was the air filter and the debris being freed up, I could believe it.

Slightly better volumetric efficiency -> more engine power -> transmission fairy summoning?

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The factory airbox is already plenty large enough for the throttle body with a clean filter. You won't get any more air through that hole.

If you want more air, get a bigger throttle body, or push the air through your current one.

True, and on a mostly-stock vehicle, you don't NEED to get anymore air through that hold. It can already flow more than the engine can use.

Only caveat with aftermarket filters is if you are using a completely different intake tube. You can see small gains with those....although those gains still aren't helped by a K&N filter on the end of the tube.


Strictly speaking about drop-in filters, you'll see no difference in any way, shape or form over a clean stock filter from any aftermarket filter, other than the fact that more dirt passes through them.

Again, yes...a K&N filter does flow more than a stock filter.....but it doesn't MATTER. The stock filter can already flow more than the engine needs....the stock filter isn't a restriction.....so making it flow better doesn't help...unless you really beef up the motor and the stock filter DOES become a restriction...and nobody here has that problem.

This is not true for all vehicles. I've dyno'd multiple cars where swapping out the stock filter with an aftermarket drop in has bumped power. The BMW M5/M6 is like this. The power gain is minor, but consistant across many of these vehicles and many dyno sessions.

However, I have also dyno'd many MANY more vehicles where the power doesn't change at all with a drop-in. This is definitely the far more common senario.

 

[Colt45]

paper filter 4 lyf y0

 

[LTC8K6]

"The BMW M5/M6 is like this."

And BMW doesn't know this? Why wouldn't BMW want max perf out of M vehicles?

 

[radioouman]

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Lol you guys are telling me doing 120 km in overdrive that my RPM dropping is BS. Why did it drop then? I was at 3000 rpm before at 120 always, and now I'm like 2500 ish give or take...

Maybe your torque converter wouldn't lockup before?

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
"The BMW M5/M6 is like this."

And BMW doesn't know this? Why wouldn't BMW want max perf out of M vehicles?

Maintenance/reliability concerns. Gaining ~1% (?) power output by that method isn't worth reducing the filtration quality, when the same gain could easily be made by tuning the ECU for the same gain. The 500hp 5.0 V10 could probably be set to ~540hp with absolutely nothing more than different software settings for more aggressive power output.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: Howard
I swear by paper filters.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: radioouman

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Lol you guys are telling me doing 120 km in overdrive that my RPM dropping is BS. Why did it drop then? I was at 3000 rpm before at 120 always, and now I'm like 2500 ish give or take...

Maybe your torque converter wouldn't lockup before?

This is a plausible theory. If the air filter was really stopped up before and it took more "gas pedal" to keep the same speed, the lockup might well not have been happening.

 

[DVad3r]

Guys there was a bunch of shit inside there. Leaves, grime, a plastic container cap. I am pretty sure the engine was working harder and not getting enough air, not to mention the stock air filter was in there that the car probably came with. So it rode out 110,000 km on a stock filter.

I am not going to argue here whether K&N improved my performance, I have no clue when it comes to filter performances. All I know is that after changing the filter and cleaning the shit out, I'm getting noticeble performance gain. If it's not that, than it must be some twisted placebo effect 😉

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
"The BMW M5/M6 is like this."

And BMW doesn't know this? Why wouldn't BMW want max perf out of M vehicles?

Maintenance/reliability concerns. Gaining ~1% (?) power output by that method isn't worth reducing the filtration quality, when the same gain could easily be made by tuning the ECU for the same gain. The 500hp 5.0 V10 could probably be set to ~540hp with absolutely nothing more than different software settings for more aggressive power output.

The power difference may not be worthwhile to the typical owner, but for those who want to deal with the extra maintenance hassle and care involved, it's worth it. BMW obviously thinks that it's not worthwhile to the majority of owners or potential owners.

What people seem to always misunderstand is cars (like most things in life) are all about compromise, and virtually never about maxing out something.

You could easily put DOT-R semi-slick tires on the M5 and make the car much faster around a track. Well, if BMW claims to be the "ultimate driving machine" why don't they do it? Um, because of the 6000 mile treadlife? The need to warm up the tires before they reach working adhesion? The need to keep pressures much more in check than with DOT tires? The need for reasonably good rain life? Again, it's a study in compromises.

Gold is the best heat reflector. Why is only McLaren using it in their engine bay?

 

[LTC8K6]

Guys there was a bunch of shit inside there.

Then any new filter would have improved things...

 

[LTC8K6]

Gaining ~1% (?) power output by that method isn't worth reducing the filtration quality

Yes, that's where I was going.

Also, what is the accuracy of a dyno? a 1% gain may not be real if the Dyno is not considerably more accurate than the claimed power output change.

May just be within the accuracy tolerances and not statistically significant.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

Hmm yea that would be interesting to see 🙂

Oh and that BMC company makes a filter for the V-Rod, I wonder if it's better than the K&N or the Screamin' Eagle one offered on the Harley site...

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

I understand going from a Inertial to EC type, I've never trusted doing significant mods and then just tuning a car under maximum accel.

What did you think of the Dynapak dynos though? They're even more expensive, especially in AWD guise, but I've heard some very nice things about them. They're measuring directly from the hub, which removes a few variables and adds to the accuracy.

I've seen a few runs by various Porches on Dynapaks and it seems like a better overall solution, but I'm no dyno expert.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

Will it read that low? 😉

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

Will it read that low? 😉

Hey man I squat 3 plates a side I should crank out a horse or two no? 😀

 

[EightySix Four]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

Apex, are you in Vegas? How much would you charge for a few pulls? I'll be there for spring break a week from monday.

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

Apex, are you in Vegas? How much would you charge for a few pulls? I'll be there for spring break a week from monday.

I'm bringing him 3 pounds of Canadian Bacon plus some Maple Syrup. Canadian Bacon + Kaiser Buns + Mustard + BBQ + Hot Peppers = win 😉

Some Ketchup too 😀

 

[EightySix Four]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: radioouman

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Lol you guys are telling me doing 120 km in overdrive that my RPM dropping is BS. Why did it drop then? I was at 3000 rpm before at 120 always, and now I'm like 2500 ish give or take...

Maybe your torque converter wouldn't lockup before?

This is a plausible theory. If the air filter was really stopped up before and it took more "gas pedal" to keep the same speed, the lockup might well not have been happening.

The more I think about it the more I wonder if his transmission just wouldn't shift into OD since the motor wasn't producing enough torque, so he basically gained a shift.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Apex, so you have a shop with a dyno?

Yeah, used to have a DynoJet (inertial type), but upgraded to a DynoDynamics (eddy current). The DynoDynamics is about 2x the cost at ~$60,000, but worthwhile, IMHO. The very very small diameter, light rollers give you an extra measure of safety (tap the brakes and they stop instantly unlike the gigantic, heavy rollers on most dynos) when tuning, and they're extremely sensitive.

IMHO, the real dyno error issue (if you have a well maintained eddy current dyno) is the operator. Use one experienced operator for everything, use the intake probes and correct every time for ambient conditions, always place the fan in the same location, plus run HUNDREDS of passes, and you can get a good picture of what the modifications you're doing to the car is doing to the powerband.

In terms of the intake (in this case, we used the BMC drop in filters), if you can get a consistant gain over a wide portion of the RPM band (not just a few points at peak or at the initial throttle application) over many MANY runs, over many many cars, in many different states (heat soaking the car, and doing cool runs), back and forth (stock to aftermarket, then back to stock for multiple dynos each time), you can be reasonably confident in the power difference if any. In this case, there definitely was.

Again, I don't dispute that fact that most cars will show no gains with just a drop in filter. However, I believe there are definitely exceptions, as we have seen. :thumbsup:

Sweet, can I come to your place next summer to dyno my bike with a new exhaust? 😀

Of course! Heck, bring a bicycle and we'll see how much horsepower YOU can generate. 🙂

Apex, are you in Vegas? How much would you charge for a few pulls? I'll be there for spring break a week from monday.

Sorry, this shop is in SoCal.

http://www.raceprecision.com/

 

[EightySix Four]

I know the shop, makes parts for my Sky RL.