MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
- 24,135
- 1,594
- 126
Thebobo
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2006
- 18,592
- 7,673
- 136
StarTech15
Member
- Oct 21, 2014
- 151
- 0
- 0
It's not lack of recognition of Palestine by other countries that keeps the bloodletting happening. It's the parties of God--Hamas and the messianic Jewish settlers--who refuse to comply to a two-state solution.
Soon you'll be convincing yourself that all of Europe doesn't count, etc.
This is long overdue.
DominionSeraph
Diamond Member
- Jul 22, 2009
- 8,391
- 31
- 91
Yeah, I get the feeling that the Palestinian supremacists here think that recognized statehood would somehow mean countries would just be champing at the bit to put themselves between Israel and her right to self-defense.
That's not how it works.
lopri
Elite Member
- Jul 27, 2002
- 13,209
- 594
- 126
Netanyahu government's rightward march is causing Israel to lose friends left and right. Even a pro-Israel newspaper in the U.S. is fed up with him, it seems.
Bibi Takes On The World
For a rebuke from editorials, this is as strong as it gets. Are there no moderates or left-leaning statesmen in Israel?
Bibi Takes On The World
For a rebuke from editorials, this is as strong as it gets. Are there no moderates or left-leaning statesmen in Israel?
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,981
- 3,318
- 126
As long as Netanyahu stays in charge NOTHING will happen - neither good or bad. That is what the man is about - keeping his seat for years while doing NOTHING worth noting.
I'm certainly not the only one seeing this, most people I've talked to want somebody else in charge that can do something - war, peace, aliens, whatever - just SOMETHING.
All he does is give idiotic speeches and piss off everyone in Israel and worldwide.
I'm certainly not the only one seeing this, most people I've talked to want somebody else in charge that can do something - war, peace, aliens, whatever - just SOMETHING.
All he does is give idiotic speeches and piss off everyone in Israel and worldwide.
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
- 13,495
- 2,120
- 126
you know the french resistance, right? the patriots who were resisting the occupation of the nazis in WW2? you just compared them to hamas.
- Feb 25, 2009
- 1,210
- 34
- 91
Uh, no. The French Resistance were not terrorists and did not kill citizens without impudence. They concentrated their attack on their Nazi occupiers.
Hamas has no regard for human life. They attack with brutality anyone who does not agree with their beliefs.
- Merg
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DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
- 13,495
- 2,120
- 126
how about, none of that is true.
Hamas wants to destroy the Israeli occupation. Because, you know, israel has been illegally (and illegittimately, in the end, because the whole "creation of a jewish state" is bullshit) occupying Palestinian soil for what, 50 years, and they have also been MURDERING IN COLD BLOOD Palestinian children, women, and civilians (easy enough, since they don't really have an army fighting Israel).
use the google. if you dare.
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
- 13,495
- 2,120
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have them stop murdering people would be a nice start.
the situation at the moment doesn't have a clear solution. this because of the massive differences between israel and palestine - one is a modern, technological country and i might add, a powerful ally of america. the other is a bunch of goat herders.
for whatever it's worth, i think the palestinians should be given back a substantial amount of land so they can survive, and then they should shut the hell up. as i see it, it's the only realistic solution right now.
(a feasible solution is in fact the two state system - yes palestine will never get back all of their land, but the jews will finally have a homeland and there will be some progress in a part of the world which up until now has not had any)
so, you might say that i prefer a solution which favours israel, in the end. yet, i myself wouldn't have anything to do with them as they have proven to be plain bad, they do what they want and they don't care who they have to trample to get it. including america, fyi.
in case this was not particularly clear, hamas is a *response* to an action. it exists because of israel's actions on the palestinian territory, and on their people. i'm not saying that if the illegal actions cease, so hamas would also immediately cease, but that would already be a situation the UN could work with.
however, i have doubts that it will ever happen. the truth is that israel wants a "final solution" to the palestinian problem, and they have made it quite clear: their intention was never to respect the boundaries set at the end of WWII, but rather to use that as a head start, then just slaughter all of palestine, and take their land.
You know, because "jews live there and they need to protect them".
not at all like hitler (or any other expansionist culture)
and after palestine, who knows.
the situation at the moment doesn't have a clear solution. this because of the massive differences between israel and palestine - one is a modern, technological country and i might add, a powerful ally of america. the other is a bunch of goat herders.
for whatever it's worth, i think the palestinians should be given back a substantial amount of land so they can survive, and then they should shut the hell up. as i see it, it's the only realistic solution right now.
(a feasible solution is in fact the two state system - yes palestine will never get back all of their land, but the jews will finally have a homeland and there will be some progress in a part of the world which up until now has not had any)
so, you might say that i prefer a solution which favours israel, in the end. yet, i myself wouldn't have anything to do with them as they have proven to be plain bad, they do what they want and they don't care who they have to trample to get it. including america, fyi.
in case this was not particularly clear, hamas is a *response* to an action. it exists because of israel's actions on the palestinian territory, and on their people. i'm not saying that if the illegal actions cease, so hamas would also immediately cease, but that would already be a situation the UN could work with.
however, i have doubts that it will ever happen. the truth is that israel wants a "final solution" to the palestinian problem, and they have made it quite clear: their intention was never to respect the boundaries set at the end of WWII, but rather to use that as a head start, then just slaughter all of palestine, and take their land.
You know, because "jews live there and they need to protect them".
not at all like hitler (or any other expansionist culture)
and after palestine, who knows.
Last edited:
When Hamas's charter calls for the elimination of Israel I'm dubious as to if they would ever accept any amount of land less than all of it in exchange for peace.
MongGrel
Lifer
- Dec 3, 2013
- 38,751
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Yup. Hamas doesn't just launch rockets willy-nilly into Israel, use suicide bombers on buses, or hide caches of weapons in hospitals and mosques. </sarcasm>
And while you might not agree with the Jewish state creation, it was voted on and approved by the United Nations. The area remained a two-state nation until Palestine and Arabs attacked Israel repeatedly. They lost that war and Israel annexed the territory. Arabs and Palestine have repeatedly attacked Israel over the years, including the day after Israel was formed. Israel doesn't start the attacks. They respond to being attacked. The exception seems to be when they go specifically after a terrorist.
- Merg
And while you might not agree with the Jewish state creation, it was voted on and approved by the United Nations. The area remained a two-state nation until Palestine and Arabs attacked Israel repeatedly. They lost that war and Israel annexed the territory. Arabs and Palestine have repeatedly attacked Israel over the years, including the day after Israel was formed. Israel doesn't start the attacks. They respond to being attacked. The exception seems to be when they go specifically after a terrorist.
- Merg
- Feb 25, 2009
- 1,210
- 34
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The fact that you compare Israel to Hitler is absolutely disgusting. Israel is not an expansionist culture. They have protected the land that they were given. When they have expanded, it has been when they have been attacked and they have annexed the area that they were attacked from. If Palestine didn't want problems with Israel, they should not have attacked Israel the day after Israel was formed.
- Merg
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
- 13,495
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- Feb 25, 2009
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Except for when Israel has seized territory AFTER being attacked, what additional land does Israel have now that they didn't when it was first created?
- Merg
So you cite the approval of the UN in regards to israel's creation but disregard the UN charter in terms of Israel's illegal expansion?
Seems convenient.
eskimospy, I'll chime in too:
.....
Currently, under occupation, Palestinians face extreme economically competitive disadvantages. It is intentionally not a level playing field as a weak and divided Palestine more easily enables Israel to imply a guise of extreme and even illegal security measures to further illegally annex territory for colonisation.
These are high international crimes, and reasonably, quite antagonising to the native populations.
Israel, for that dreadful policy of lebensraum, is in control of the viability of Palestinians, but chooses to maintain oppression all for state strategic purposes. Potential Palestinian success and sovereignty is the number one obstacle to the implementation of a greater and more expansive state of Israel.
The Palestinian Authority (now a recognised state government, though just of the West Bank), rather than the militant wing or even political wings of Hamas, is conducting a unilaterally peaceful, diplomatic, and a just way forward with the avocation of civil disobedience in their occupied land against the aggressors, in combination with a route to achieve a semblance of state sovereignty and a gained UN seat to lobby for criminal charges and further condemnation against Israel expansionist actions. These Israeli action along with the brutal ghettoization of Gaza, provide a Machiavellian mechanism of both dividing any possibility of a Palestinian unity government, plus a ready bogeyman to distract and demonise for Israel’s propaganda PR blitzes of its good against evil.
Yes, Israel did de-colonise from the Gaza strip, in favour of supplemented colonisation with expanded annexation in through the West Bank. A regular PR line of Israel is to keep repeating that withdrawal of Gaza without heed to its growing high crimes to the east. Gaza has long been densely populated, unlike the diverted focus to far more sparse West Bank regions for expropriation, annexation, and colonisation. With Israeli ghettoization and now fairly regularly destructive military invasions, to Israel’s long term strategic advantage for state territorial expansion to the east, Gaza has been willfully fostered into a powderkeg and demagogue.
Israeli action outside of its state borders fail a moral stiff test. It is not hyperbole to correctly and accurately align historical pogroms and contemporary legal language against Israeli extra-jurisdictional crimes. A charged language is apt as the accurate parallels with history are damning indictments of Israeli state action:
· As Germany of the past, Israel has a state policy of lebensraum. Ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.
Balanced, condemnation upon Israel is not warranted out of its simple existence nor the presence of Jews, but of that state's extra-territorial policies and actions. So, also please avoid a the expected trivial misrepresentation for no peace being achievable simply due to hate for Jews or that myself, a Jew, gets-off "Jew-baiting" by presenting comparisons to a convicted Germany...
Those in rabid and absolute defence of Israel will again likely cry with hyperbole over such applicable language, then I call for a new tact. Try avoiding the familiar arguments into ad nauseum and ‘Jew-hating’ or ‘anti-Semitic’ tarring against internet messengers, and to constructively put an end to the likes of applicably vile language against Israel. You can accomplish this via turning to a rationale course of action by pressuring Israel to cease its condemnable actions.
That promoting and applauding in favour of Zionist expansionist (not that a title of Zionism should equate to evil, rather unilateral territorial expansion is a crime) is antagonistic and ought to be reasonable concluded as such to every honest witness. Do such high crimes warrant crimes of humanity attacks upon Israeli civilians, as per more personal terrorism and indiscriminate rocket attacks? No. Yet those actions represent a minority of belligerents and most certainly do not give a pass to the continued and disproportionately greater instigating crimes by Israel.
In the context of Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonising of the West Bank of Palestine, categorising what is to be unjust is fairly easy:
An above point there of all having a right to nationality, was directly born out of the aftermath of WWII with mass-refugees and the struggle of sovereign state borders through to that of the founding of the state of Israel as home for some stateless Jews. A lesson of that conflict was an enabler to high crimes against humanity was to deny a people their identity or nationality. When considering Palestinians, an occurrence that is now commonly practiced in simple forums as this, to even high international forum such as the UN General Assembly. People have a sovereign right to identity, and to deny such an identity is an enabler to deny and confiscate property, through to the demeaning treatment and expulsion of such an identified group, all for the strategic territorial goals of supremacist ethnic cleansing.
The self-determination of Palestinians is directly offensive to Israeli state policy, as it further complicates and deters the expansionist colonisation of the state of Israeli into jurisdiction beyond its borders, tough occupied by the IDF.
With full support of legal citations through the legal and public diplomatic positions of the state of Israel’s closest allies, I have firmly displayed the illegality of Israeli actions. Further, with firm conviction and rational, I view the isolation and regular military invasions of Gaza (even Lebanon) serve the Israeli policy position of fostering/provoking extremism and surreptitiously prolonging any chance of achievable peace settlements, all to divide a nation of Palestine, deny the unity of such an already recognised state, and thereby permit the backhanded continuance of high crimes of aggression in the form of annexation and expropriation of territory beyond the state borders of Israel, all for the greater supremacist expansion and growth of a greater Israel.
Before those first settling of borders in the 1940's, various militant and expansionist Zionist groups were already committing to practices of ethnic cleansing against well established and already century old Palestinian towns/villages. Please, keep away that above propaganda of Israel simple acting in 'defence' against unprovoked attacks.
.....
Currently, under occupation, Palestinians face extreme economically competitive disadvantages. It is intentionally not a level playing field as a weak and divided Palestine more easily enables Israel to imply a guise of extreme and even illegal security measures to further illegally annex territory for colonisation.
These are high international crimes, and reasonably, quite antagonising to the native populations.
Israel, for that dreadful policy of lebensraum, is in control of the viability of Palestinians, but chooses to maintain oppression all for state strategic purposes. Potential Palestinian success and sovereignty is the number one obstacle to the implementation of a greater and more expansive state of Israel.
The Palestinian Authority (now a recognised state government, though just of the West Bank), rather than the militant wing or even political wings of Hamas, is conducting a unilaterally peaceful, diplomatic, and a just way forward with the avocation of civil disobedience in their occupied land against the aggressors, in combination with a route to achieve a semblance of state sovereignty and a gained UN seat to lobby for criminal charges and further condemnation against Israel expansionist actions. These Israeli action along with the brutal ghettoization of Gaza, provide a Machiavellian mechanism of both dividing any possibility of a Palestinian unity government, plus a ready bogeyman to distract and demonise for Israel’s propaganda PR blitzes of its good against evil.
Yes, Israel did de-colonise from the Gaza strip, in favour of supplemented colonisation with expanded annexation in through the West Bank. A regular PR line of Israel is to keep repeating that withdrawal of Gaza without heed to its growing high crimes to the east. Gaza has long been densely populated, unlike the diverted focus to far more sparse West Bank regions for expropriation, annexation, and colonisation. With Israeli ghettoization and now fairly regularly destructive military invasions, to Israel’s long term strategic advantage for state territorial expansion to the east, Gaza has been willfully fostered into a powderkeg and demagogue.
Israeli action outside of its state borders fail a moral stiff test. It is not hyperbole to correctly and accurately align historical pogroms and contemporary legal language against Israeli extra-jurisdictional crimes. A charged language is apt as the accurate parallels with history are damning indictments of Israeli state action:
· As Germany of the past, Israel has a state policy of lebensraum. Ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.
· Israel has long implemented policies akin to apartheid with militarily enforced separate areas and separate laws in the West Bank. Palestinians are subverted in favour of Israeli while only those Israeli colonists, rather than their subjugated Palestinian neighbours, are granted a political say upon state policy by Israel.
Balanced, condemnation upon Israel is not warranted out of its simple existence nor the presence of Jews, but of that state's extra-territorial policies and actions. So, also please avoid a the expected trivial misrepresentation for no peace being achievable simply due to hate for Jews or that myself, a Jew, gets-off "Jew-baiting" by presenting comparisons to a convicted Germany...
Those in rabid and absolute defence of Israel will again likely cry with hyperbole over such applicable language, then I call for a new tact. Try avoiding the familiar arguments into ad nauseum and ‘Jew-hating’ or ‘anti-Semitic’ tarring against internet messengers, and to constructively put an end to the likes of applicably vile language against Israel. You can accomplish this via turning to a rationale course of action by pressuring Israel to cease its condemnable actions.
That promoting and applauding in favour of Zionist expansionist (not that a title of Zionism should equate to evil, rather unilateral territorial expansion is a crime) is antagonistic and ought to be reasonable concluded as such to every honest witness. Do such high crimes warrant crimes of humanity attacks upon Israeli civilians, as per more personal terrorism and indiscriminate rocket attacks? No. Yet those actions represent a minority of belligerents and most certainly do not give a pass to the continued and disproportionately greater instigating crimes by Israel.
In the context of Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonising of the West Bank of Palestine, categorising what is to be unjust is fairly easy:
Though the above are mostly ideals, some points have been ratified into international law, particularly those ratified and signed by the state of Israel.
An above point there of all having a right to nationality, was directly born out of the aftermath of WWII with mass-refugees and the struggle of sovereign state borders through to that of the founding of the state of Israel as home for some stateless Jews. A lesson of that conflict was an enabler to high crimes against humanity was to deny a people their identity or nationality. When considering Palestinians, an occurrence that is now commonly practiced in simple forums as this, to even high international forum such as the UN General Assembly. People have a sovereign right to identity, and to deny such an identity is an enabler to deny and confiscate property, through to the demeaning treatment and expulsion of such an identified group, all for the strategic territorial goals of supremacist ethnic cleansing.
The self-determination of Palestinians is directly offensive to Israeli state policy, as it further complicates and deters the expansionist colonisation of the state of Israeli into jurisdiction beyond its borders, tough occupied by the IDF.
Reaffirming such post-WWII international law, here are some of the historically sanctioned and recorded legal international views, that also include that of your USA:
Internationally, on a state-per-state basis, Israel is absolutely isolated upon a view of legal annexation and colonisation of extra-jurisdictional territory. Driving partisanship, Prime Minister Harper of Canada has been both praised and critiqued for his unwavering support for Israel, yet even the government that he leads is unequivocal upon the illegality of Israeli aggression:
Israeli occupation, subjugation, and colonisation of Palestinian land is immoral, criminal, and as specified -- unjust. As far as states go, Israel is alone upon challenging this. If you choose to side with Israel in such opposition, then your perception of justice is quite incorrect.
With full support of legal citations through the legal and public diplomatic positions of the state of Israel’s closest allies, I have firmly displayed the illegality of Israeli actions. Further, with firm conviction and rational, I view the isolation and regular military invasions of Gaza (even Lebanon) serve the Israeli policy position of fostering/provoking extremism and surreptitiously prolonging any chance of achievable peace settlements, all to divide a nation of Palestine, deny the unity of such an already recognised state, and thereby permit the backhanded continuance of high crimes of aggression in the form of annexation and expropriation of territory beyond the state borders of Israel, all for the greater supremacist expansion and growth of a greater Israel.
Pre-emption for purposes of discussion:
Hasbara Fellowship messaging 101 (pages 8-9):
[/FONT][/FONT]
Hasbara Fellowship messaging 101 (pages 8-9):
[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]
[/FONT][/FONT]
StinkyPinky
Diamond Member
- Jul 6, 2002
- 6,766
- 784
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