[Sweclockers] Radeon 380X coming late spring, almost 50% improvement over 290X

[AnandThenMan]

I would love an AIO water cooled card, it will bolt perfectly into my Cooler Master case in fact I could mount two no problem.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Bro, you water cool your CPU but it ain't okay for a GPU? If anything, GPUs need it more than CPUs nowadays. Most people I talk to perceives aio as superior and more attractive. You're just different. But, you wouldn't touch amd, regardless. So why bother, right?

You don't think needing an AIO water solution for a GPU is a sign that they need to do some work to improve power/heat? I'd buy AMD, but I won't buy a card requiring water just to compete.

 

[n0x1ous]

Just because they choose to use it doesn't mean it's "required". There will be a ton of other choices from the board vendors.

 

[96Firebird]

I think they should just release it with an open air design. Once the aftermarket coolers were available for the 290/290X they were a great buy. They should simply offer those options from the get go.

They definitely need to allow open-air designs to be available upon release. Once they were finally released for the 290(X) cards, mining had increased prices and they were no longer a great deal...

 

[AnandThenMan]

If there is ONLY a WC version then that would be very stupid, but having it as an option is awesome do want.

 

[5150Joker]

Did I really read correctly!!?

Apparently not so I'll reiterate: Perception is a very strong factor for sales. If consumers see that AMD needs to resort to AIO to compete with an air cooled GM200, they'll view it as a desperate brute force attempt by AMD to stay relevant. But from a personal standpoint, yeah I wouldn't bother with an AIO GPU because I usually go SLI and it wouldn't have anywhere to be placed in my mid tower case. IF AMD releases a superior air cooled solution AND WC, then that'll be fantastic but relying on third party vendors to release an air solution later on would be a huge mistake.

 

[garagisti]

You don't think needing an AIO water solution for a GPU is a sign that they need to do some work to improve power/heat? I'd buy AMD, but I won't buy a card requiring water just to compete.

The difference between the two cards' TDP is so miniscule, that having a cooler like vaporx, will easily address any heat and noise concerns. 380x doesn't need a water cooler when an 8gb 290x with vapor kit can shame some 970s. AMD has got bad press before for sloppy reference coolers, and by golly this is quite something. Most likely this is just something done to not get bad press, but it also allows better thermals, lower noise.

Also, the same information is available over last 3-4 pages in much more detail, but i suspect you didn't read much.

 

[stuff_me_good]

Well, the world is changing all the time and people have to also change their mindset. It's not the first time people have been all against some new improvement at first, but later on, everybody is like... "hey, I can't believe that this thing has not been around more than this time".


The thing I've also wondered is that why on earth both nvidian and amd has not released card with after market type proper heatpipe cooler from the get go? Why they have been persisting for so long with those horrible noisy and ineffective blowers? It's not like it takes too much time if they plan it early on.

 

[iiiankiii]

You don't think needing an AIO water solution for a GPU is a sign that they need to do some work to improve power/heat? I'd buy AMD, but I won't buy a card requiring water just to compete.

Well, I'll take the aio because it's such a effective solution. Until we see performance numbers, we won't know how well it'll compete. I just know that aio are awesome.

 

[garagisti]

Apparently not so I'll reiterate: Perception is a very strong factor for sales. If consumers see that AMD needs to resort to AIO to compete with an air cooled GM200, they'll view it as a desperate brute force attempt by AMD to stay relevant. But from a personal standpoint, yeah I wouldn't bother with an AIO GPU because I usually go SLI and it wouldn't have anywhere to be placed in my mid tower case. IF AMD releases a superior air cooled solution AND WC, then that'll be fantastic but relying on third party vendors to release an air solution later on would be a huge mistake.

Yes, you usually go SLI, we believe you. This is a CF thread...

Again, you have been informed repeatedly through various pages of thread that it's the reference design. There are going to be other open air solutions, if you fancy CF. The custom coolers from partners are what the majority of people buying dgpu pick. So reference is moot to begin with, except with system builders. Customers there pay good money to get their hardware liquid cooled, and this is so easy, and cheap than going the whole distance. Surely the benchmarketeers will have to review this favorably, they did 295x2 afterall, and this only a single gpu. So unless you are talking about the reviews spinning it to be bad, I don't see how perceptions will be affected and negatively so. So yes, I don't buy your argument.

 

[Silverforce11]

You don't think needing an AIO water solution for a GPU is a sign that they need to do some work to improve power/heat? I'd buy AMD, but I won't buy a card requiring water just to compete.

Power is not an isolated variable. Do you understand the concept of Perf/w?

We are looking at a 50% increase in efficiency and raw performance.

If NV users fail to see merit in such a design, then they can stick with buying NV. No love lost.

To give you an example you can comprehend better.

Imagine NV made a GPU that uses 400W of power. Sounds crazy high, right? Now, what if that single GPU had better performance than SLI 980s, would that make it bad?

 

[RampantAndroid]

The difference between the two cards' TDP is so miniscule, that having a cooler like vaporx, will easily address any heat and noise concerns. 380x doesn't need a water cooler when an 8gb 290x with vapor kit can shame some 970s. AMD has got bad press before for sloppy reference coolers, and by golly this is quite something. Most likely this is just something done to not get bad press, but it also allows better thermals, lower noise.

Also, the same information is available over last 3-4 pages in much more detail, but i suspect you didn't read much.

I have not yet seen a benchmark showing a 290x shaming a 970; every benchmark I see shows the 970 having a general advantage (how this changes with knowledge of the 970 shenanigans/people using FCAT I don't know).

I've been watching on and off. It's a 14 page thread.

As for AIOs - some might think they're awesome. I don't. I've made my feelings clear on these AIOs enough times, but put simply, a basic vapor chamber cooler has a higher MTBF, and if the fan fails, it continues to cool.

Power is not an isolated variable. Do you understand the concept of Perf/w?

We are looking at a 50% increase in efficiency and raw performance.

If NV users fail to see merit in such a design, then they can stick with buying NV. No love lost.

To give you an example you can comprehend better.

Imagine NV made a GPU that uses 400W of power. Sounds crazy high, right? Now, what if that single GPU had better performance than SLI 980s, would that make it bad?

I've not said that I view high power cards themselves bad; that 400W card you're talking about might be worth buying by someone. That someone would not be me. My argument here is more specifically that cards like a 380 would, in my eyes, be something I had zero interest in if the reference cooler was an AIO.

Also, way to be condescending.

 

[Creig]

A 120mm rad for a single GPU is a sad joke. A very tiny fraction of enthusiasts will buy it but I doubt our very own RS who is campaigning for AIO so hard will even buy one. I'd be shocked if he did really. As someone who frequently upgrades GPUs, I'd never buy one that requires AIO, even if NVIDIA had a GM200 that blew the doors off anything else. If I want a watercooled GPU, I'll use my own setup, not some second tier OEM design.

Doesn't matter if AIO can do a better job cooling or not, it's large and unwieldy for a single GPU solution. As for reference 980 SLI throttling, I can't speak to that since mine are ACX 2.0 and have 0 throttling problems. In fact, nobody I know that owns a 980 (stock blower or otherwise) have experienced throttling. If this were a widespread issue, we'd hear about it, especially from you.

And yet AIO CPU cooling has been a reality for five years now and seems to be a successful product. So I fail to understand your rage against them. A single 120mm radiator bolted to the back of a case hardly qualifies as "large and unwieldy".

 

[Silverforce11]

And yet AIO CPU cooling has been a reality for five years now and seems to be a successful product. So I fail to understand your rage against them. A single 120mm radiator bolted to the back of a case hardly qualifies as "large and unwieldy".

Or the front, top, bottom, side of the case...

Detractors are trying very hard to make it seem like a 120mm rad water cooler that dumps all that heat out the case is a bad thing. Hmm. Won't succeed. Pretty sure users aren't too stupid to think water cooling is worse than air cooling.

 

[Silverforce11]

I've not said that I view high power cards themselves bad; that 400W card you're talking about might be worth buying by someone. That someone would not be me. My argument here is more specifically that cards like a 380 would, in my eyes, be something I had zero interest in if the reference cooler was an AIO.

Also, way to be condescending.

This is what you said, to be clear:
"You don't think needing an AIO water solution for a GPU is a sign that they need to do some work to improve power/heat? I'd buy AMD, but I won't buy a card requiring water just to compete."

You think power and heat is a sign they need to improve their GPU, but you fail to understand nobody buys a GPU just to admire its power & heat. They do so for performance. Power & heat are part of the package.

+50% performance at the same power. Pretty good, no?

You buy AMD, but you won't buy a card with water to compete.. fair enough, your opinion, its an entitlement. But do you realize there will most likely be AIB air designs that keep R290X class of power use at ~70C, with low noise?

That's lower temps than reference NV blowers with lower noise. So what's the problem?

If NV made a 400W monster with more performance than SLI 980s, it will be an awesome enthusiast GPU. It won't be for you, fair enough.

 

[RampantAndroid]

This is what you said, to be clear:
"You don't think needing an AIO water solution for a GPU is a sign that they need to do some work to improve power/heat? I'd buy AMD, but I won't buy a card requiring water just to compete."

You think power and heat is a sign they need to improve their GPU, but you fail to understand nobody buys a GPU just to admire its power & heat. They do so for performance. Power & heat are part of the package.

+50% performance at the same power. Pretty good, no?

You buy AMD, but you won't buy a card with water to compete.. fair enough, your opinion, its an entitlement. But do you realize there will most likely be AIB air designs that keep R290X class of power use at ~70C, with low noise?

That's lower temps than reference NV blowers with lower noise. So what's the problem?

If NV made a 400W monster with more performance than SLI 980s, it will be an awesome enthusiast GPU. It won't be for you, fair enough.

I stand by the statement that if you need an AIO cooler on a stock card, you're doing it wrong. If to beat NV's performance AMD is forced to resort to a design consuming more power/generating more heat and thus needing an AIO, I absolutely think they've done it wrong. It's one thing to create a card that is an all out attempt to get a perf crown; it's another thing for a mainstream GPU to *require* an AIO solution - which is exactly what my comment was about.

 

[Silverforce11]

Wait, so if they made the R380X exactly the same as it were if its water cooled, ie. similar power to R290X and offered 50% more performance.. but if they made it have a reference air cooler, it would be good?

"it's another thing for a mainstream GPU to *require* an AIO solution"

ps. This isn't a mainstream GPU. It's not a 750ti or 960.

You are making it seem like whatever AMD does is fail, because it seems like this:

AMD : "hey guys, we've improved efficiency and performance by 50% and we also improved our reference cooler so its quieter & cooler than some of the best open air designs that dump heat in your case..."

Naysayers: "nah bro, you should have gone air on it so it dumps that heat in the case instead and run hotter & louder"

AMD : "umm, but there's gonna be cool custom air designs from our partners for those who want air"

Naysayers: "not good enough dudes, the fact you went water on reference make it seem like a desperate move"...

 

[Paul98]

Just because you have a high quality cooler doesn't mean you NEED one.

Look at the reference 290x cooler vs after market coolers. The reference cooler might be able to keep the card within spec. But wouldn't you rather have a better cooler? Or would you rather have a worse cooler?

 

[garagisti]

I have not yet seen a benchmark showing a 290x shaming a 970; every benchmark I see shows the 970 having a general advantage (how this changes with knowledge of the 970 shenanigans/people using FCAT I don't know).

I've been watching on and off. It's a 14 page thread.

As for AIOs - some might think they're awesome. I don't. I've made my feelings clear on these AIOs enough times, but put simply, a basic vapor chamber cooler has a higher MTBF, and if the fan fails, it continues to cool.



I've not said that I view high power cards themselves bad; that 400W card you're talking about might be worth buying by someone. That someone would not be me. My argument here is more specifically that cards like a 380 would, in my eyes, be something I had zero interest in if the reference cooler was an AIO.

Also, way to be condescending.

For your consideration, something which was already posted in the thread, so i'm not going to post images for you. However, have a look:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sapphire-vapor-x-r9-290x-8gb,3977-5.html

 

[5150Joker]

Wait, so if they made the R380X exactly the same as it were if its water cooled, ie. similar power to R290X and offered 50% more performance.. but if they made it have a reference air cooler, it would be good?

"it's another thing for a mainstream GPU to *require* an AIO solution"

ps. This isn't a mainstream GPU. It's not a 750ti or 960.

You are making it seem like whatever AMD does is fail, because it seems like this:

"hey guys, we've improved efficiency and performance by 50% and we also improved our reference cooler so its quieter & cooler than some of the best open air designs that dump heat in your case..."

"nah bro, you should have gone air on it so it dumps that heat in the case instead and run hotter & louder"

First off, this is all speculation about the perceived efficiency gains of this card, we don't have any real numbers, just stuff purportedly leaked by ChipHell. Secondly, he is saying that if AMD needs AIO to compete with an air cooled NV solution, then they have failed, especially if GM200 has similar efficiency gains and doesn't rely on water cooling to attain that level of performance.

Secondly, I care about aesthetics when I build PCs, I don't need or want a couple ugly AIO's bolted outside my system and I suspect many others don't either.

 

[Silverforce11]

First off, this is all speculation about the perceived efficiency gains of this card, we don't have any real numbers, just stuff purportedly leaked by ChipHell. Secondly, he is saying that if AMD needs AIO to compete with an air cooled NV solution, then they have failed, especially if GM200 has similar efficiency gains and doesn't rely on water cooling to attain that level of performance.

Secondly, I care about aesthetics when I build PCs, I don't need or want a couple ugly AIO's bolted outside my system and I suspect many others don't either.

Ofc we are discussing in relation to what we have at the current time. Everything may indeed change.

Now let's assume they do get 50% more performance at similar power use to R290X. That's good. You can admit that without betraying NV, give credit where its due.

Now lets assume GM200 does perfect scaling (being generous), it's 50% faster than 980 and 50% higher Wattage, putting it around the 250W mark.

Both end up with similar power usage. Enthusiast class power usage & performance grade, would you agree?

NV cannot stick to their reference blower, we've seen Titan Blacks run very loud, more than the 780ti. But let's assume they stick with it, it'll be 85C and very loud.

AMD will have their quiet & cool solution. It looks inferior to you?

 

[itsmydamnation]

and yet almost everyone universally loved the 295 packaging. im going to take the punt that early adopters will be fine with an AIO(i am and i have never used water cooling). The people who aren't likely aren't going to buy one before AIB's release cards anyway.

also given the way things like Tri-X etc handle 300+ watt OC's its quite the hyperbole to throw around the whole they cant compete need a AIO logic..................

 

[destrekor]

It means that some people still believe that in a well-ventilated modern case, the blower style flagship GPU will run cooler and quieter than the best after-market open air cooled solutions. It's simply not true. You can take any flagship NV blower card and it will never outperform the MSI Gaming 970/980 in noise levels and temperatures at full load in a well-ventilated case.

Now, back to my advocate mode:

I haven't read the comments that generated this comment, but.. are people really saying that blowers run cooler than open-air coolers?

Or, are they saying that open-air coolers make the case hotter? That's a big difference. I always assumed open-air coolers would make the GPU cooler, and would be quieter, but... at what cost inside the PC? Well ventilated or not, versus a blower, the open-air design WILL have an impact. On the best ventilated cases, perhaps that is only a degree or two centigrade, but I frankly suspect more. I still haven't actually seen good benchmarks that test internal temperatures.

I'm going to be giving the 290X a try (and two in Crossfire, eventually), so I'll get a chance to compare two blowers in SLI compared to one open-air 290X Lightning. I'll try and do things so that I upgrade my case cooling first, then run some tests and see what I get for the 560 Ti SLI setup; then I'll switch out and run with one 290X and see what I find. It might be a month before I get the second card to really see how everything works, especially seeing how the top card behaves in that situation.

 

[.vodka]

A CLC cooled card combines both the strengths of the blower, and the open air cooler.

It exhausts hot air outside the case, and as a bonus the rad can be mounted on the back of the case to double up as the exhaust fan, usually the top 120mm in the back... and has not only the temperatures of a decent open air cooler (see the Tri-X and Vapor-X coolers from Sapphire) but also the low noise level they have, too.

To even think that a CLC cooled card is inferior to one with a blower or an open air cooler is insane, there's no logic in that statement!


In the case of the 380x, that 120mm CLC won't be removing >500w of heat like on the 295x2, something more alike the 290x's produced heat. (I'm citing the leak with the 380x consuming 7w more than the 290x)... which is a walk in the park for the very same 120mm rad.

What temperatures does a 290x get with a run of the mill CLC mounted on it? 40°C... then you have A LOT of thermal headroom to increase frequencies and extract as much performance as you can from your design, if that's taken into account well into the planning stage. Which is probably what the leak showed, a supposed 380x consuming a little more over the 290x and running at 70°C... which can also be explained by a silent fan... which is also welcome, and you can easily trade temperatures for noise with a faster fan. You get to choose here.

Either way, this is a win-win for everyone. AMD removes every possibility of giving the 380x a negative stigma over its temperatures or noise, provides an elegant cooling solution that everyone can enjoy (what case can't mount a 120mm rad these days? and the past few years? thought so.) and it's the reference board you're getting, too. What else can you ask for?

Then, having the same power envelope as the 290x... the Tri-X like coolers have already proven themselves to be more than capable of dealing with that amount of power and heat without a single problem, and can keep up with an OC + OV. There will be custom cards. Everyone gets to choose whatever they want.



I just don't see what the problem is. Is it the double standard again? Is it that it wasn't nvidia the one that started innovating, leaving behind air cooling to start using water cooling? There's so much you can do on the same node for FOUR years, every time getting the average closer and closer to the 300w wall. Do some of you seriously think that GM200, a 630mm² beast, won't get close to the 300w wall, with the GM204, a puny little 400mm² chip approaching GK110 (780/Titan) power levels in games like Metro LL? Nvidia will have to do some tweaking to its blower if it wants to keep the noise down... or go open air, just like it did with the 7800GTX 512 back in the day.

Someone a few pages back cited the FX 5800 Ultra's heatpipe cooler of hell. It was the first one that brought heatpipes to the mix. It was a poor, quite poor first start for that technology, but then we've all seen how heatpipes carried on air cooling up to what it's capable of today. Nvidia set the heatpipe in motion in video cards. Then we got vapor chambers later... There's so much you can do on air lately, it's stagnated. You can't do a NH-D15 size cooler on a graphics card... There comes the CLC cooler to start a new era in graphics card cooling, as the heatpipe did back in the day... AT LEAST until we get 16/14nm cards. Then, and only then will the power consumption take a step back to "normal" levels and then will air coolers be useful again.



I can only applaud AMD for embracing the CLC cooler at the enthusiast grade cards level. I mean, we all had to pick up our jaws off the floor when people started ghetto mounting CLCs to their GTX 480s back then, right?

 

[Creig]

First off, this is all speculation about the perceived efficiency gains of this card, we don't have any real numbers, just stuff purportedly leaked by ChipHell. Secondly, he is saying that if AMD needs AIO to compete with an air cooled NV solution, then they have failed, especially if GM200 has similar efficiency gains and doesn't rely on water cooling to attain that level of performance.

Secondly, I care about aesthetics when I build PCs, I don't need or want a couple ugly AIO's bolted outside my system and I suspect many others don't either.

First, nobody knows that AMD *needs* AIO cooling, if that is indeed what their next gen flagship card is coming with. It could simply be that they received such criticism for the reference 290X cooler and such overwhelming praise for the AIO cooler on the 295X2 that they wanted to have a slam dunk cool and quiet solution that nobody could complain about. Well, most people anyhow.

Secondly, I'm sure most people will put the 120mm radiator on the inside of their case, not the outside. Thus preserving their case aesthetics, should it be of concern to them.