Susan Estrich: Race and the Democratic Party

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Estrich is a pretty smart woman who I suspect knows what she is talking about.

I know we had our own thread on the Bradley effect, but has anyone gone back and looked at the results in the non-caucus states and compared them to the polls before hand?

What will really suck is if this effect is true, Obama gets the nomination goes into the final election polls winning by a few points and then losses to McCain. That would result in another four years of Democrats crying about how the election was stolen.
link
A funny thing keeps happening to Barack Obama on his way to victory against Hillary Clinton.

It happened in New Hampshire. It happened again in Nevada. It happened last week in California, Massachusetts, New Jersey and even in New York.

It?s not easy to figure out, but it deserves to be addressed.

In the days leading up to the voting, all anyone talks about is the wave of support for Obama, the momentum flooding in his direction, the crowds like they?ve never seen, the power of the unexpected endorsements ? whether from the Culinary Workers? Union in Nevada or the Kennedys (as in Ted, Caroline, and Maria Shriver) in California and Massachusetts.

Rumors fly, from people who usually ? and should ? know better, about panic in the Hillary campaign, massive firings, who is going to take over the campaign, and how soon she will exit from the race.

The conventional wisdom declares Obama the ?winner? of whatever is to be won in the days leading up to the voting, whether it?s the debate, the never-ending money primary, or the intensity meter.

The Obama people, after initially trying to keep expectations in check, end up getting swept up by the game, as they did this time, telling reporters the double digit lead that one poll found in California on the eve of the election was too big, and they?d be happy just to win, which of course they didn?t.

The game doesn?t end until the actual votes start getting reported. Even the exit polls lie.

This year, a headline on the Drudge Report, much talked about, was that Obama was huge in the exits. He was. Much bigger than in all the little polling booths across the country.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I fell for it in New Hampshire. I studied all the polls, talked to all the reporters covering the candidates. I felt the doom and gloom from the Hillary supporters, and the exuberance of the Obama aides, barely controlling their confidence and optimism.

I listened respectfully to the reports that Obama?s people had been told that there should be ?no dancing in the end zone? while Hillary?s people were saying that keeping their loss to single digits would be a victory.

I e-mailed everyone I knew, conveying the ?inside word? that Obama was expected to win by 12- to 13 points. I took a nap, expecting to be up half the night trying to explain why Hillary?s campaign wasn?t over and why I had been wrong in downplaying the significance of Iowa with my detailed history of Iowa winners who went on to defeat in New Hampshire.

I wrote a column about the wave, but then the wave didn?t happen. This time, at least, I wasn?t fooled.

I listened to the reports about the crowds, the last-minute polls, the focus groups that handed the debate to Obama, the stories about the money pouring in and the power of the Kennedy name in Massachusetts and California.

I said what I honestly believed, what I had learned the hard way ? ?I don?t know...not necessarily.... don?t trust the polls.?

When people called me in a panic about the exits showing California too close to call, showing Obama with leads in primary states that Hillary was supposed to win, I took a deep breath and suggested they do the same.

I had a two word answer for all the folks who said it was over, that Hillary was dead, that all the money and momentum for Obama meant he would walk on water come the time for the polls to close.

Two words - New Hampshire. And New Hampshire it was.

It?s not that Obama didn?t do well, of course he did. He did very well.

But, California turned out to be as clear-cut a victory for Hillary as most people thought it would be two weeks earlier. The Latino and women's vote stayed with Hillary.

New York was a romp. New Jersey was easy. Even Massachusetts ? the most liberal state in the nation, where Obama won the endorsements of both Senators, Kennedy and Kerry, not to mention the newly elected African American Governor, Deval Patrick, even Massachusetts was Clinton country.

What is going on?

If you paid attention to the gushers in the press and punditry in the days leading up to Super Tuesday, Hillary was on her way to the morgue, murdered by her crazy husband?s loose talk, abandoned by young voters and women and anti-war Democrats, and anyone else they could think of.

Not so.

Partly, it?s a measure of Hillary?s strength. But it?s also a sign of Obama?s weakness which, it seems, we who chatter for a living have been reluctant to speak about, lest we be tarred with having raised the ?race card.?

But, the fact is that there is a long pattern of what we in California call the ?Bradley problem? in polling, after the former Los Angeles mayor who was elected governor in every poll, including the exits, except that he lost at the ballot box. Did I mention that he was African-American?

That was, according to the pollsters, the problem: about 10 percent of the electorate claimed that they were going to vote for him, and in many cases even told pollsters that they did, but they lied.

Shocking. Racism in America. Who?d a thunk it?

Doug Wilder, who wasn?t elected to the Senate from Virginia, faced the same problem. We who are Democrats would like to believe that race is not a factor in the polling of our party members, but maybe we?re wrong.

No one doubts, or at least no one who is honest does, that both racism and sexism come into play as people decide between Clinton and Obama, but could it be that people are more willing to admit that they won?t vote for the woman than that they won?t vote for the black?

If this is happening even among us good Democrats, what does that say about Obama?s strength in a general election? Not pretty questions. Not a fair world.

But for Democrats who want to win, these are questions that must be addressed.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,088
6,605
126
I am going to start working of some hair brained theory that explains everything. I need to get on TV and blow smoke up the asses of zombies and sell books. I am also a sharp cookie and not just an old lady voting for Clinton and trying to scare Obama voters away, but with subtlety, of course.

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I am going to start working of some hair brained theory that explains everything. I need to get on TV and blow smoke up the asses of zombies and sell books. I am also a sharp cookie and not just an old lady voting for Clinton and trying to scare Obama voters away, but with subtlety, of course.

Mr Moonbeam, you have it almost right but you forgot to mention the fact that Estrich also works for Fox news. You know, them fair and balanced folks who shill for the Republicans.
I am sure some trickle down economics for Susie will emanate from a very pleased Rupert Murdock. Fifteen minutes of fame for all that inflame. After all, mountains are built out of very many small molehills with busy moles. And with a little help from the OP, FUD rules the day
as Susan joins Rove.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Exit polls haven't been matching results for a while during the democratic primaries.

Therefore, Obama is in league with Diebold. Black helicopters! The Illuminati!
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Estrich is a woman over the age of 50 and therefore falls into the doomed to vote for Hillary graphic.

Is Hillary secreting some substance that is compelling older white women to fall in love with her?

Ohh yeah...wiki says she is a female-advocate...translation (what the right refer to as a feminazi)
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,109
30,907
136
I have just one question...

If you are going to lie to a pollster, why would you even talk to them? No one is forced to answer a survey on who you voted for.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
The media tries to influences elections in the USA. They like Hillary and that is what they pushed most of the time. They never ever ask Hillary any difficult questions. They are all guilty of racketeering. As an example, when the Mormon run it is all about "Can a Mormon be elected President?", which is just an Anti-religion statement. It is plain old biggottry.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
But for Democrats who want to win, these are questions that must be addressed.

Estrich is a Clinton supporter. This is just her way of casting doubt about Obama's chances of winning the genral election. Is this aimed at other superdelegates?

Fern
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
SUSA had Clinton winning California by 10% and that is what happened. They predicted that Hispanics and women would go for Clinton and that is what happened. The only poll that had Obama up by a lot outside the margin of error in California was Zogby who never releases his internal numbers but did said Obama dramatically cut into Clinton?s lead among Hispanic voters. He was dead wrong. Why it is that every time Obama loses, it's the Bradley effect but every time he wins, he inspired people and has the momentum?
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,536
1,100
126
Originally posted by: chowderhead
SUSA had Clinton winning California by 10% and that is what happened. They predicted that Hispanics and women would go for Clinton and that is what happened. The only poll that had Obama up by a lot outside the margin of error in California was Zogby who never releases his internal numbers but did said Obama dramatically cut into Clinton?s lead among Hispanic voters. He was dead wrong. Why it is that every time Obama loses, it's the Bradley effect but every time he wins, he inspired people and has the momentum?

Another problem for Obama was the black vote didnt turn out all that well in CA.

Estrich is wrong, because that would just mean registered dems are racist. I mean the democratic base is mobilized. For the bradley effect to take place, that would mean an awful lot of dems would vote McCain, which would mean an awful lot of dems are racist.
 

ranmaniac

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,940
0
76
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: chowderhead
SUSA had Clinton winning California by 10% and that is what happened. They predicted that Hispanics and women would go for Clinton and that is what happened. The only poll that had Obama up by a lot outside the margin of error in California was Zogby who never releases his internal numbers but did said Obama dramatically cut into Clinton?s lead among Hispanic voters. He was dead wrong. Why it is that every time Obama loses, it's the Bradley effect but every time he wins, he inspired people and has the momentum?

Another problem for Obama was the black vote didnt turn out all that well in CA.

Estrich is wrong, because that would just mean registered dems are racist. I mean the democratic base is mobilized. For the bradley effect to take place, that would mean an awful lot of dems would vote McCain, which would mean an awful lot of dems are racist.


I've been to a couple Democratic conventions in California and Las Vegas, they have a caucus for nearly every race and ethnic group, the black caucus, the latino caucus, a minority caucus, arab-american caucus, gay & lesbian, unions etc. They try to be too many things to everyone that they end up pissing off everyone in the end, and are more apt to being splintered than even the Republicans. I remember attending the minority caucus, and there was tension between blacks, latinos, and jews. Basically people fighting over who qualifies to be a minority etc.



 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: HomerJS
I have just one question...

If you are going to lie to a pollster, why would you even talk to them? No one is forced to answer a survey on who you voted for.
Might be peer pressure. Especially if that pollster is black themselves. They may want to appear open minded by saying the voted for Obama etc.
 

SViscusi

Golden Member
Apr 12, 2000
1,200
8
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Estrich is a pretty smart woman who I suspect knows what she is talking about.

I know we had our own thread on the Bradley effect, but has anyone gone back and looked at the results in the non-caucus states and compared them to the polls before hand?

What will really suck is if this effect is true, Obama gets the nomination goes into the final election polls winning by a few points and then losses to McCain. That would result in another four years of Democrats crying about how the election was stolen.
link
A funny thing keeps happening to Barack Obama on his way to victory against Hillary Clinton.

It happened in New Hampshire. It happened again in Nevada. It happened last week in California, Massachusetts, New Jersey and even in New York.

It?s not easy to figure out, but it deserves to be addressed.

In the days leading up to the voting, all anyone talks about is the wave of support for Obama, the momentum flooding in his direction, the crowds like they?ve never seen, the power of the unexpected endorsements ? whether from the Culinary Workers? Union in Nevada or the Kennedys (as in Ted, Caroline, and Maria Shriver) in California and Massachusetts.

Rumors fly, from people who usually ? and should ? know better, about panic in the Hillary campaign, massive firings, who is going to take over the campaign, and how soon she will exit from the race.

The conventional wisdom declares Obama the ?winner? of whatever is to be won in the days leading up to the voting, whether it?s the debate, the never-ending money primary, or the intensity meter.

The Obama people, after initially trying to keep expectations in check, end up getting swept up by the game, as they did this time, telling reporters the double digit lead that one poll found in California on the eve of the election was too big, and they?d be happy just to win, which of course they didn?t.

The game doesn?t end until the actual votes start getting reported. Even the exit polls lie.

This year, a headline on the Drudge Report, much talked about, was that Obama was huge in the exits. He was. Much bigger than in all the little polling booths across the country.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I fell for it in New Hampshire. I studied all the polls, talked to all the reporters covering the candidates. I felt the doom and gloom from the Hillary supporters, and the exuberance of the Obama aides, barely controlling their confidence and optimism.

I listened respectfully to the reports that Obama?s people had been told that there should be ?no dancing in the end zone? while Hillary?s people were saying that keeping their loss to single digits would be a victory.

I e-mailed everyone I knew, conveying the ?inside word? that Obama was expected to win by 12- to 13 points. I took a nap, expecting to be up half the night trying to explain why Hillary?s campaign wasn?t over and why I had been wrong in downplaying the significance of Iowa with my detailed history of Iowa winners who went on to defeat in New Hampshire.

I wrote a column about the wave, but then the wave didn?t happen. This time, at least, I wasn?t fooled.

I listened to the reports about the crowds, the last-minute polls, the focus groups that handed the debate to Obama, the stories about the money pouring in and the power of the Kennedy name in Massachusetts and California.

I said what I honestly believed, what I had learned the hard way ? ?I don?t know...not necessarily.... don?t trust the polls.?

When people called me in a panic about the exits showing California too close to call, showing Obama with leads in primary states that Hillary was supposed to win, I took a deep breath and suggested they do the same.

I had a two word answer for all the folks who said it was over, that Hillary was dead, that all the money and momentum for Obama meant he would walk on water come the time for the polls to close.

Two words - New Hampshire. And New Hampshire it was.

It?s not that Obama didn?t do well, of course he did. He did very well.

But, California turned out to be as clear-cut a victory for Hillary as most people thought it would be two weeks earlier. The Latino and women's vote stayed with Hillary.

New York was a romp. New Jersey was easy. Even Massachusetts ? the most liberal state in the nation, where Obama won the endorsements of both Senators, Kennedy and Kerry, not to mention the newly elected African American Governor, Deval Patrick, even Massachusetts was Clinton country.

What is going on?

If you paid attention to the gushers in the press and punditry in the days leading up to Super Tuesday, Hillary was on her way to the morgue, murdered by her crazy husband?s loose talk, abandoned by young voters and women and anti-war Democrats, and anyone else they could think of.

Not so.

Partly, it?s a measure of Hillary?s strength. But it?s also a sign of Obama?s weakness which, it seems, we who chatter for a living have been reluctant to speak about, lest we be tarred with having raised the ?race card.?

But, the fact is that there is a long pattern of what we in California call the ?Bradley problem? in polling, after the former Los Angeles mayor who was elected governor in every poll, including the exits, except that he lost at the ballot box. Did I mention that he was African-American?

That was, according to the pollsters, the problem: about 10 percent of the electorate claimed that they were going to vote for him, and in many cases even told pollsters that they did, but they lied.

Shocking. Racism in America. Who?d a thunk it?

Doug Wilder, who wasn?t elected to the Senate from Virginia, faced the same problem. We who are Democrats would like to believe that race is not a factor in the polling of our party members, but maybe we?re wrong.

No one doubts, or at least no one who is honest does, that both racism and sexism come into play as people decide between Clinton and Obama, but could it be that people are more willing to admit that they won?t vote for the woman than that they won?t vote for the black?

If this is happening even among us good Democrats, what does that say about Obama?s strength in a general election? Not pretty questions. Not a fair world.

But for Democrats who want to win, these are questions that must be addressed.

Oh god, this is the dumbest op-ed column I've read in a while. It's completely lacking things like facts, context, and anything related to reality as we know it.

Fact: the polls nailed Obama's New Hampshire number.
Fact: SUSA has been pretty damn good in most of the races, only getting one wrong, MO, which they had Clinton favored in.
Fact:The exit polls are wrong, only if you ignore early and absentee voters. When weighted, exit polls have done a damn good job accurately predicting that days voting. In short, they do exactly what they're supposed to do. Not what some idiot Clinton supporter on Fox News thinks they're going to do.

Besides why would anyone listen to Michael Dukakis's campaign manager about anything related to politics?
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Estrich is a Clinton fanatic. Of course she's out as surrogate casting FUD and doubt about an Obama nomination.

<YAWN>
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Estrich is a Clinton fanatic. Of course she's out as surrogate casting FUD and doubt about an Obama nomination.

<YAWN>

What I find interesting is the extremely huge AMOUNT of FUD being bandied about lately...and how the media is treating it as serious news rather than pointless spin by people trying to make Obama into a sideshow instead of a serious threat to Hillary's chances of being the Democratic nominee.

The way this OP-ED was written, and the way most OP-EDs about this topic are written, you'd think Obama was the Ron Paul of the Democratic party instead of the guy who started out as a distant second and is now pretty much tied with Hillary in terms of the number of delegates. But of course that's not really an accident, because at this point what the race is really about is momentum. Obama has it, and Hillary does not. And lack of momentum can kill Hillary here, so her campaign has to do everything they can to try to take it away from Obama.

You notice how you don't see BS like this from the Obama camp? Yeah, there's a reason for that...
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
What I find interesting is the extremely huge AMOUNT of FUD being bandied about lately...and how the media is treating it as serious news rather than pointless spin by people trying to make Obama into a sideshow instead of a serious threat to Hillary's chances of being the Democratic nominee.

It's always hard going against the establishment. The Clintons have enjoyed decades of favorable media coverage and clear Pro-Clinton bias. I guess I'm not surprised all that much by the same old media guys trying to push the same old establishment candidates.

The way this OP-ED was written, and the way most OP-EDs about this topic are written, you'd think Obama was the Ron Paul of the Democratic party instead of the guy who started out as a distant second and is now pretty much tied with Hillary in terms of the number of delegates. But of course that's not really an accident, because at this point what the race is really about is momentum. Obama has it, and Hillary does not. And lack of momentum can kill Hillary here, so her campaign has to do everything they can to try to take it away from Obama.

That, bolded, is the key. She's gasping for air right now. No doubt about it.
 

nullzero

Senior member
Jan 15, 2005
670
0
0
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: chowderhead
SUSA had Clinton winning California by 10% and that is what happened. They predicted that Hispanics and women would go for Clinton and that is what happened. The only poll that had Obama up by a lot outside the margin of error in California was Zogby who never releases his internal numbers but did said Obama dramatically cut into Clinton?s lead among Hispanic voters. He was dead wrong. Why it is that every time Obama loses, it's the Bradley effect but every time he wins, he inspired people and has the momentum?

Another problem for Obama was the black vote didnt turn out all that well in CA.

Estrich is wrong, because that would just mean registered dems are racist. I mean the democratic base is mobilized. For the bradley effect to take place, that would mean an awful lot of dems would vote McCain, which would mean an awful lot of dems are racist.

Problem with california was the mail in ballots that were sent a few weeks before the primary. Edwards got 4% of the vote in California even though he dropped out earlier. Lets not even mention the fact that swing voters that voted for Hillary would of changed have they seen the momentum the few days leading up.