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Supreme Court Upholds 'Three-Strikes' Law

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From the day I turned 18 I have commited nothing other than a traffic violation. I have no friends and no family that have been convict or even arrested for a criminal violation of any kind.

Why is it unusual for me to believe that even repeat petty criminals can't correct their behavior and should be removed from society permanetly?
 
All I know is I WANT JUSTICE! I want these worms to pay, and pay, and pay!

I'd love to set up a sting for stereo or car thieves. Put a decent car, with a decent stereo in a spot where cars are stolen frequently. Leave it unlocked or with no alarm system. When it's broken into, bag the maggots and throw the book at them. No mercy what-so-ever! I'd still like to know what the penalty is, but whatever it is, nail 'em to the full extent. Make them pay the costs to apprehend them and/or the damage done to the vehicles. Would that cost too much to do? I'll bet you could get citizens to volunteer to do the surveillance. I bet many would be willing to go even farther than that!
 
Originally posted by: Ornery
All I know is I WANT JUSTICE! I want these worms to pay, and pay, and pay!

I'd love to set up a sting for stereo or car thieves. Put a decent car, with a decent stereo in a spot where cars are stolen frequently. Leave it unlocked or with no alarm system. When it's broken into, bag the maggots and throw the book at them. No mercy what-so-ever! I'd still like to know what the penalty is, but whatever it is, nail 'em to the full extent. Make them pay the costs to apprehend them and/or the damage done to the vehicles. Would that cost too much to do? I'll bet you could get citizens to volunteer to do the surveillance. I bet many would be willing to go even farther than that!
Like the "anti-theft" system in RoboCop?

😀

 
I think the 3 strikes law should also include theft of programs, let the netpolice in and if you have 3 pirated programs on your machine charge each one seperatly and send the thief to 50 years. I would include any mp3's that you dont have the cd's for.

Bleep
 
Originally posted by: Bleep
I think the 3 strikes law should also include theft of programs, let the netpolice in and if you have 3 pirated programs on your machine charge each one seperatly and send the thief to 50 years. I would include any mp3's that you dont have the cd's for.

Bleep

Probably more than 90% of the people on these boards would be in jail then

 
Originally posted by: przero
apoppin - And the solutions are?
There are no solutions.

Society would have to "change" for them to accept some "solutions" presented earlier. Not gonna happen . . . nor "justice" either.


 
apoppin - Isn't this what you said:
"it is tough on people (when there are far better and more cost-effective solutions"?
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
It is simply acknowledging that it is not within the purview of the Supreme Court to second guess or question the wisdom of public policy or the authority of the legislature to determine it just because some members of the Court don't like it. That's not what courts are for, regardless of how many liberal activist Justices think otherwise. If you don't like the law, change it.

"Rant on"

If you think that liberal judges are the only ones who are activist, then you are woefully unaware of the history of Constitutional Law. What you are referring to falls into the age old debate between two camps of legal analysis regarding the Constitution: formalism and functionalism. Both are quite capable of being principled, as long as they use legitimate sources of decision making such as the text, history, social consequences, etc.

That being said, the decision that O'Connor handed down seems to be rather unprincipled. Recent cases from the court regarding proportionality of sentencing have held that disproportional sentencing is in fact unconstitutional (see Solem v. Helm; the general principle of which was untouched in Harmelin v. Michigan).

The dissent in the instant cases, specifically Andrade's note that the penalogical theory behind the 3 strikes law is separation of repeat offenders from society. This is fine. The problem however is that triggering third offense can be disproportionately disimilar and minor in comparison to the initial 2 qualifying crimes, and still result in a MANDATORY 25 years to life in prison.

Not only does this remove the power of a judge to determine the minimum or maximum sentence per the law, but it is also deficient in its reasoning. If the purpose behind the system, as the state said, was to remove dangerous offenders from society, how does it square with the doctrine of proportionality in Andrade's case. If a man commits a qualifying felony, serves his time, and then subsequently commits crimes thereafter in succession which are considerably less serious than the time before, then this law does more to punish for past offenses than future dangerousness. This falls very close to the doctrine of double jeopardy.

Furthermore, O'Connor used to be a legislator, so her deference to their authority on an issue she, as a conservative judge, would/has upheld is to be expected. However, personal beliefs as sources for constitutional interpretation are invalid. In fact, Justices like Marshall have warned that use of such sources would inevitably lead to the lessening of the power of the court since its only true power comes from one idea: integrity. Once the majority of the public begins to feel that the court is making decisions more on personal/political beliefs than the text, history, etc., then the court has lost its legitimacy.

It should also be noted that such rulings should not surprise anyone. The formative years of the Supreme Court were typically conservative (using both formalism and functionalism mind you). There was a turnaround during the period from around the early 1900's to 1989, where the court became fairly liberal (Brown v. Board of Education, Roe v. Wade, etc.) Since 1989, we've seen a return to the previous era's beliefs (although the decisions have been mostly contentious, with split court decisions, bare majorities, etc.) Interestingly enough, Justice Breyer read his dissenting opinion from the bench which is usually done when the issue is hotly debated.

By the way, the idea that the Court is powerless to do anything with legislation, or should rightly defer to it, flies in the face of what the Court does and has done, day in and day out since 1803 and Marbury v. Madison.

I'm not against locking up offenders, but I'm a staunch believer in letting the punishment fit the crime, and the fact that triggering crimes can be petty and result in 25 to life is ridiculous. The dissent even cites to case law, from the Supreme Court no less, that gives examples of how to properly implement recidivism laws. "Rant off"
 
Originally posted by: przero
apoppin - Isn't this what you said:
"it is tough on people (when there are far better and more cost-effective solutions"?
Yes, and I presented some of them already:

End the war on marijuana to free up a big percentage of court resources.

REHABILITATE offenders. Spend just some of the money used to incarcerate them to educate them.

RESTITUTION: Make thieves PAY BACK what they stole to the person they stole from - perhaps 3 time the value of the stolen goods - perhaps SEVEN times for repeat offenders. They can't pay someone back if they aren't working and in jail (and if they can't "find" a job, "temporary slavery" would be fine).

OK, enough for "starters"? BUT - don't you see that "interests" entrenched in this Society will see that this NEVER happens. Crime actually "supports" the entire Judicial System. (See, it DOES pay)

rolleye.gif


EDIT: "offenerds"? (offenders) 😀
 
Originally posted by: przero
apoppin - And the solutions are?
The moral of the story is:
When you come up with a workable "solution", NO ONE wants to consider it . . . 😛

It'll NEVER change. :Q

😀

Temporary slavery - for thieves who steal from you, are required by law to pay you back BUT can't find a job. Perhaps working on the highway, cleaning up litter or WHATEVER state-sponsored (or private) program to get them a wage to PAY YOU BACK. They would also be required to get job training during their "slavery".

Obviously this would not work with VIOLENT people - those "few" get prison . . .

Think outside the box (um, cell) 😀

 
Hehe. I was just jabbing you. But to be honest, if they're making a wage then it's not slavery. You should just call it what it is: forced labor for restitution. "Temporary slavery." LOL.
 
Originally posted by: Spudd
Hehe. I was just jabbing you. But to be honest, if they're making a wage then it's not slavery. You should just call it what it is: forced labor for restitution. "Temporary slavery." LOL.
The wage they make is given to the person they stole from . . . so it IS slavery.
 
Err...no it's not. Slavery means the person has become property, is owned by the state (in this case), and may be "discarded" with the same impunity as you would a dirty pair of underpants. See the problem with what you're saying now? 😉
 
Originally posted by: Spudd
Err...no it's not. Slavery means the person has become property, is owned by the state (in this case), and may be "discarded" with the same impunity as you would a dirty pair of underpants. See the problem with what you're saying now? 😉

Indentured servitude. Words, words. You knew what he meant. 🙂
 
Based on some of the responses in this thread, I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't know what the definitions of a "Felony" and "Misdemeanor" are in California.

So here it is:

California Penal Code
Section 17. (a) A felony is a crime which is punishable with death or by imprisonment in the state prison. Every other crime or public offense is a misdemeanor except those offenses that are classified as infractions.

Section 18. Except in cases where a different punishment is prescribed by any law of this state, every offense declared to be a felony, or to be punishable by imprisonment in a state prison, is punishable by imprisonment in any of the state prisons for 16 months, or two or three years; provided, however, every offense which is prescribed by any law of the state to be a felony punishable by imprisonment in any of the state prisons or by a fine, but without an alternate sentence to the county jail, may be punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year or by a fine, or by both.

19. Except in cases where a different punishment is prescribed by any law of this state, every offense declared to be a misdemeanor is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both.

19.2. In no case shall any person sentenced to confinement in a county or city jail, or in a county or joint county penal farm, road camp, work camp, or other county adult detention facility, or committed to the sheriff for placement in any county adult detention facility, on conviction of a misdemeanor, or as a condition of probation upon conviction of either a felony or a misdemeanor, or upon commitment for civil contempt, or upon default in the payment of a fine upon conviction of either a felony or a misdemeanor, or for
any reason except upon conviction of more than one offense when consecutive sentences have been imposed, be committed for a period in excess of one year; provided, however, that the time allowed on parole shall not be considered as a part of the period of confinement.


I'm not sure I'm interpreting this correctly, but it looks like a felony means jailtime of over a year, and a misdemeanor means jailtime of a year at most (for the first conviction). If so, then I'd say that a third offense of theft should qualify an offender for a felony.
 
That a misdemeanor results in jail time not to exceed 364 days, and that a felony is a year or more in prison is standard in just about every jurisdiction. All cases of theft are not felonies. You have varying degrees based on the amount stolen. My point was about "proportionality" of sentencing, and its case law. Did you read my post?
 
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: Spudd
Err...no it's not. Slavery means the person has become property, is owned by the state (in this case), and may be "discarded" with the same impunity as you would a dirty pair of underpants. See the problem with what you're saying now? 😉

Indentured servitude. Words, words. You knew what he meant. 🙂
I also used the word "temporary". 😛

"Slavery" implies (well, actually more than implies) loss of freedom . . . but more than in prison since the former thief is now "working" (and NOT getting paid for it).

OK . . . clear? Now please make sure you read my posts.


rolleye.gif

 
No need for the eye rolls. LOL. You'll notice that in each of my posts, I wrote "Temporary." I did read your post. I understood what you meant, but just thought it funny that you used the word slavery. That's all. I'm always thinking of things legally though, and it's not my fault; it's how they program us. 😉
 
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