Supreme Court Upholds Discrimination

[da loser]

I just hope decisions like these don't discourage kids on either side of the argument from pursuing their dreams. Because I don't think anyone can argue that if you have the natural intelligence and the drive, you can go farther than in any other country. Personally I feel, people give decisions like this too much credence and use it as a scapegoat, in reality decisions like these are for the fringe element. If you're good it doesn't matter.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: Shantanu
Arrrrggghhhh!

You think the white male has it bad? It's even worse when you're an East Indian male.

I have a 3.8 from an Ivy League school, a 34 on the MCAT, and a whole host of extracirriculars. I'll be lucky if I can get into *a* medical school.

On the other hand, if you're Hispanic/black with a 3.5 from community college, and have 27 on the MCAT, you can get into Johns Hopkins med school with no problems.

Thats exactly why everything needs to be on equal grounds. No special treatment to anyone based on the color.... This pisses me off. I wonder what we could do about stuff like this though?....boycott or mail letters to the judges?

Oh yeah, how about special help for Whites or Indians to get into Football now??? huh? Its like 80% black now.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
FCK! THAT! next time on admissions, just fill in your race as minority groups. and get yourself a better chance.

Yep. Seriously, what are they going to do say "you're not a minority" and you can simply reply "yes I am, give me my advantage now or else"

Im actually going to consider that...... lol

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: Piano Man

Originally posted by: Elemental007
Yea, I love how racism can go one way, but not the other.

You can be in hte EXACT same school as me, making the exact same grades, the exact same income, but because 150 years ago politics were a bit different, you get in to programs and get given money I can't. Whoopie.

Yea, those damn blacks and hispanics. They never get any sh!t like us poor ol' white folks.

Should those damn blacks and hispanics get preference just because they are damn blacks and hispanics?

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
'What this shows is a trend that makes it tough for an GIFTED white or unasian person to get the same treatment as a Black student."

My own belief is that skin color or country of origin doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. Therefore there are as many "gifted" black and hispanic students as there are "gifted" Asians and whites, on a percentage basis.

So if everything was equal, culture, opportunity,etc, if blacks are 12% population then 12% of the students who get 1300 on the SAT should be black.

Because this doesn't happen it's my opinion that the SAT does not measure intelligence, it measures the circumstances under which a person grew up. And it tells me that everything about the way people grow up is not the same. ( I know this is patently obvious to most, but I'm trying to be complete)

So if the goal is to get the "gifted" into the universities(not necessarily my goal, but the apperent goal of the post I quoted above) the way to do so is not to look at SAT scores to decide who is "gifted", because that gives you the wrong answer.

Facetious part- what I think the SAT test really does is reward people who are disiplined in their work habits, even if the work they are doing is pointless homework that an intelligent person would not waste time on.:Q These high SAT score people are the worker bees, who should work in factories and restaurants, while the low scoring SAT people, of all backgrounds, the great thinkers, should be sent to university to philosophize about the issues of the day.
:sun::moon::music:

Actually the tests show if the person is PREPARED to attend a college.

Lets face it some people are smarter. some gain knowledge easier than others. The real stats are that if you grow up in a crime free/ drug free enviorment you are more likely to do better on tests that will get you into college. This isn't to say that givin the opportunity that a black wouldn't perform as well as a white but the growing process start at a young age not at 18. If they were to grant points based on economic factors I might let some of this slide. However they don't and as far as medical and Law school come on these students are all attending colleges NOW. You can't really claim that I got a better education because I am white if we attend the same school can you?

Sending someone to do something when they are not prepared is asking for trouble. Lets say I am jumping out of a plane I can afford a parchute so I should land safely. now if we to use the same logic we should let minorities jump without parchutes because it's not their fault they can't affordthem. Now if you jump out of a plane without a parachute your chances of landing safely are really not that good. Yet We do this every year when we admit students who are not prepared for college. what we could do is fly the plane really low (lower the standards) so that if you jump with that chute you will be OK yet this totally negates my chute.

I truely beleive that all people are created equal. I also understand that some people get a better hand when they sit down at the table. The key is what you do with thoose cards. I used to play alot of poker and I won quite a bit. But would it be fair because I have more experence and can read people better that we just automaticly give my opponents a pair to "even the playing field"

My sister is a prime example of how you can "beat the odds" she attended Community College for two years. She worked and paid for school all the way up until she graduated. she got no preferencial treatment and was able to get through. Our family fell into that "too rich for Finacial aid and too poor to pay for college" so she did it on her own.

I did not get through college. I did however join the military and get some training. I got injuried and discharged. This would have been a perfect chance fo me to claim hardship but I didn't. I have busted my butt for the 6 years since I got out and have made a pretty good nitche for myself. I made 50K last year and was on pace to make about 60K before I got laid off. Now at many times in my life I could have blamed others for my plight but I have yet too. I continue to attempt to make myself better and to use my skills to better my life. I haven't been given ANYTHING but I can say I am content.

If you think you are not getting a Fair shake lets talk. Lets look at the individual. Not everyone gets dealt a straight flush so we all need to play our hands a little different. I have friends who attended college that are not as sucessful as me and some are more sucessful. College does not mean automatic happiness. I failed out of Palomar Community College and in the last three years have made over 120K. My sister is currently working at Kmart as a cashier. 6.75 an hour (7.75 on sundays).

My dad did not attend college because his family was poor. He tried hard to get us into school. and his grandchildren are going to be going to college.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch

Originally posted by: Lucky
Oh, OK. I can see how it's fair that someone in the top 10% of their class can only get accepted to pikachu medical university while Shaniqua over here in the bottom 50% gets into John Hopkins.

I try to avoid responding to overt racist comments, but you arent' describing anything that happens in the real world. What happens is that Shaniqua and average white guy are both in the top 10%, and Shaniqua gets a small advantage in the case of a tie, sometimes.

There are plenty of white people who go to John Hopkins though, so don't be to worried.

LOL. No. In the real world, Shaniqua has a B average and a 25 MCAT, and beats out white guys with a 3.8 and a 34.

Go here and look how race changes the admission requirements.
http://www.mdapplicants.com

 

[glen]

dp

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Discrimination is typically thought of as the majority holding back the minority.. in this case it's the majority holding back the majority, putting the minority on a pedastal... I'd probably call that reversed.

I would say you're adding to the definition.....

I said "typically thought of," not typically defined as. A majority of polled people will probably associate discrimination with majority vs. minority.

a majority of people can't pick out the united states on a map

 

[Tom]

TM37,

You make some good points in your last post. But I think the issue of keeping people out of colleges is a different issue than people who get into college and don't finish.

Like Bill Gates. 😀

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

You think the white male has it bad? It's even worse when you're an East Indian male.

I have a 3.8 from an Ivy League school, a 34 on the MCAT, and a whole host of extracirriculars. I'll be lucky if I can get into *a* medical school.

On the other hand, if you're Hispanic/black with a 3.5 from community college, and have 27 on the MCAT, you can get into Johns Hopkins med school with no problems.

Cry me a river. I've taught MCAT, DAT, and GRE classes. I've sat on admissions panels. Your 3.8 and 34 would place you just above the mean which means by the numbers you are nothing special at elite medical schools. Your host of extracurriculars means very little in comparison to an applicant that has shown commitment to a select number of extracurriculars. I hope you don't get into medical school b/c you give an air of entitlement which would get you a great big X in my book.

Every admissions board has its quarks. An admissions director once told me that many female applicants didn't have anything interesting to talk about. At the time we were talking about sci-fi . . . could you imagine getting downgraded b/c you couldn't remember DS9 plot lines? Do you really think this guy gives everyone equal opportunity?

One medical school dramatically revised the admissions office to emphasize "higher quality" applicants. The successive class had the highest mean GPA and MCAT scores in the med school's history. Subsequently, this matriculating class has required the establishment of MULTIPLE remediation programs. They've got the best numbers as a group and as a group they are the LEAST prepared. Correlation is not causation but the theory of numbers is a profound falsehood.

SAT does not predict achievement in broad curricula. MCAT is predictive of pre-clinical achievement but the correlation is less than 0.6 (which is moderate). Attendance at one of the myriad of grade-inflated, elite institutions of higher learning carries little weight with the typical admissions board . . . with the notable exception of attending the same institution as the person reviewing your app.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

LOL. No. In the real world, Shaniqua has a B average and a 25 MCAT, and beats out white guys with a 3.8 and a 34.

The site you reference will be very inaccurate at the extremes (like most models). Shaniqua with a B average and 25 MCAT has very little chance of getting into any medical school. Make her an author, former Peace Corp, or the first person in her family to go to college and she will likely get an interview and a fighting chance at admission.

3.8 and 34 is nothing special . . . just part of the broad criteria that go into selecting good candidates for medical school. If Shaniqua gets a spot at Hopkins she earned it through the totality of her application which was not only sufficient to overcome low MCAT and GPA but also superior to many people with high MCAT and GPA.

 

[josphII]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

You think the white male has it bad? It's even worse when you're an East Indian male.

I have a 3.8 from an Ivy League school, a 34 on the MCAT, and a whole host of extracirriculars. I'll be lucky if I can get into *a* medical school.

On the other hand, if you're Hispanic/black with a 3.5 from community college, and have 27 on the MCAT, you can get into Johns Hopkins med school with no problems.

Cry me a river. I've taught MCAT, DAT, and GRE classes. I've sat on admissions panels. Your 3.8 and 34 would place you just above the mean which means by the numbers you are nothing special at elite medical schools. Your host of extracurriculars means very little in comparison to an applicant that has shown commitment to a select number of extracurriculars. I hope you don't get into medical school b/c you give an air of entitlement which would get you a great big X in my book.

Every admissions board has its quarks. An admissions director once told me that many female applicants didn't have anything interesting to talk about. At the time we were talking about sci-fi . . . could you imagine getting downgraded b/c you couldn't remember DS9 plot lines? Do you really think this guy gives everyone equal opportunity?

One medical school dramatically revised the admissions office to emphasize "higher quality" applicants. The successive class had the highest mean GPA and MCAT scores in the med school's history. Subsequently, this matriculating class has required the establishment of MULTIPLE remediation programs. They've got the best numbers as a group and as a group they are the LEAST prepared. Correlation is not causation but the theory of numbers is a profound falsehood.

SAT does not predict achievement in broad curricula. MCAT is predictive of pre-clinical achievement but the correlation is less than 0.6 (which is moderate). Attendance at one of the myriad of grade-inflated, elite institutions of higher learning carries little weight with the typical admissions board . . . with the notable exception of attending the same institution as the person reviewing your app.

but do you doubt what this person is saying??

people are told that if they want the best chance to get in to med school that you need to go to a good college, get a high gpa and have high mcat scores, which this person has done. many minorities with much lower scores/gpa are accepted over people like him simply because they are a minority. now tell me how being a minority correlates with being a good doctor. and if admissions boards arent going to weight grades and test scores 100%, then how about they tell people what they actually need to do.

 

[josphII]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

LOL. No. In the real world, Shaniqua has a B average and a 25 MCAT, and beats out white guys with a 3.8 and a 34.

The site you reference will be very inaccurate at the extremes (like most models). Shaniqua with a B average and 25 MCAT has very little chance of getting into any medical school. Make her an author, former Peace Corp, or the first person in her family to go to college and she will likely get an interview and a fighting chance at admission.

3.8 and 34 is nothing special . . . just part of the broad criteria that go into selecting good candidates for medical school. If Shaniqua gets a spot at Hopkins she earned it through the totality of her application which was not only sufficient to overcome low MCAT and GPA but also superior to many people with high MCAT and GPA.

and if Shaniqua is actually Mary Smith or Joe white boy then theyre screwed!

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

You do not understand the process. The author, former Jesuit, or Peace Corp vet has a distinguishing history (irrespective of race). Those examples are off the top of my head but when I hear them or see them these people gain mad admissions points. I seriously doubt a single medical school is biased against Caucasians except for maybe Meharry in TN (I have no facts to back such a claim of bias . . . just IMHO).

To the contrary, I have plenty of facts (and experience) to back the rest of my claims. Mary Smith and Joe White are essentially in like Flynn if they have "distinctive" qualities to match high GPA and MCAT. The only roadblock left is a horrible interview . . . which has deep-6 many applicants. You need competitive NOT elite GPA/MCAT to have a good chance. The 3.8/34 is competitive NOT elite (Note: 2 more MCAT pts averaged over the subsections produces 2 SD which by definition is elite). Furthermore, the 3.8/34 is neither necessary nor sufficient for admissions.

In truth it is exceptional qualities that move your application from the big middle to notoriety (either definite interview or definite discard). Race should be used only in the context of "other" exceptional qualities. I am not omniscient so I have no idea how many admissions officials consider race to be a sufficient trait to justify admissions . . . but my guess would be ZERO.

I know little about other disciplines but in medicine/research . . . selection is notoriously susceptible to the "just like me" phenomenon. Everything in your app is a selection for interview. It's the interview that makes or breaks you. If you make a personal connection (short of oral sex) you have greatly increased your odds of admission. Typically that personal connection revovles around your interviewer perceiving admirable traits (traits which are difficult to score with a number) and/or seeing themselves in the applicant. More often than not minority applicants may have a slight advantage in the former and a profound disadvantage (demographically) in the latter.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
TM37,

You make some good points in your last post. But I think the issue of keeping people out of colleges is a different issue than people who get into college and don't finish.

Like Bill Gates. 😀

Actually I think that letting people in who haven't earned the right OR more importantly ill prepared does both that person and the college a disservice.

Perhaps some of those kids that got into MIT might have been better served to attend a smaller less "elite" school. One that is less demanding that they have the where with all to suceed at.

I really like golf but unfortunately I am not very good at it. Should I be allowed to play in a pro event based on my race? I would come in last place. I could bust my ass off at torrey pines and I just ain't gonna make the cut. there is nothing wrong with that either. The goal is always to better yourself. I contend that these kids are being short changed by putting them into a siituation where they are bound to fail. I will lose at golf every time I play against pros But If I play with my friends I have a shot😉 You can get pretty far with a community college degree and then transfer when you are ready to attend a four year school.

 

[Tom]

One of the guest on the Lehrer show tonight said something to the affect that there is essentially no difference in the success rate of college students who may have received help from AA in getting in and the success rate of kids that didn't.

So is there a good source that refutes her position ?

 

[tm37]

I quoted stats from the book I posted earlier.

I have always thought that AA was unfair but now I really think that it is unfair to both.

The numbers were that of black students.

 

[classy]

LOL. I am just cracking up at the whining here. As far as numbers is concerned, the only numbers which count is, 5-4, lol 🙂.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: classy
LOL. I am just cracking up at the whining here. As far as numbers is concerned, the only numbers which count is, 5-4, lol 🙂.

That is kind of funny coming form the BIGGEST whiner around when it comes issues where you feel the Back man is being held down. I guess you're happy that the Supreme court basically said that Blacks can't compete on their own merit so we have to apply different standards where they are concerned?

 

[josphII]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
You do not understand the process. The author, former Jesuit, or Peace Corp vet has a distinguishing history (irrespective of race). Those examples are off the top of my head but when I hear them or see them these people gain mad admissions points. I seriously doubt a single medical school is biased against Caucasians except for maybe Meharry in TN (I have no facts to back such a claim of bias . . . just IMHO).

To the contrary, I have plenty of facts (and experience) to back the rest of my claims. Mary Smith and Joe White are essentially in like Flynn if they have "distinctive" qualities to match high GPA and MCAT. The only roadblock left is a horrible interview . . . which has deep-6 many applicants. You need competitive NOT elite GPA/MCAT to have a good chance. The 3.8/34 is competitive NOT elite (Note: 2 more MCAT pts averaged over the subsections produces 2 SD which by definition is elite). Furthermore, the 3.8/34 is neither necessary nor sufficient for admissions.

In truth it is exceptional qualities that move your application from the big middle to notoriety (either definite interview or definite discard). Race should be used only in the context of "other" exceptional qualities. I am not omniscient so I have no idea how many admissions officials consider race to be a sufficient trait to justify admissions . . . but my guess would be ZERO.

I know little about other disciplines but in medicine/research . . . selection is notoriously susceptible to the "just like me" phenomenon. Everything in your app is a selection for interview. It's the interview that makes or breaks you. If you make a personal connection (short of oral sex) you have greatly increased your odds of admission. Typically that personal connection revovles around your interviewer perceiving admirable traits (traits which are difficult to score with a number) and/or seeing themselves in the applicant. More often than not minority applicants may have a slight advantage in the former and a profound disadvantage (demographically) in the latter.

uc med school/law school statistics. the statistics dont lieeither you have a better chance of getting accepted if you are a minority, or for some inexplicable reason being a minority predisposes you to "distinctive" qualities as you put it

 

[ShotgunSteven]

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

-Marin Luther King, Jr.

Too bad, Dr. King, the Supreme Court has apparently decided that the skin colour of your children renders them unable to compete equally with others, so they'll just give them a leg up and everyone in class with them can look at them and wonder, "Did they get here on their own merits, or was it because of their skin colour?" How wonderful that such touchy-feely help your fellow man BS breeds the very racism they're supposedly trying to stamp out.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

-Marin Luther King, Jr.

Too bad, Dr. King, the Supreme Court has apparently decided that the skin colour of your children renders them unable to compete equally with others, so they'll just give them a leg up and everyone in class with them can look at them and wonder, "Did they get here on their own merits, or was it because of their skin colour?" How wonderful that such touchy-feely help your fellow man BS breeds the very racism they're supposedly trying to stamp out.

that is wonderfull said and virtually an unarguable point.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

-Marin Luther King, Jr.

Too bad, Dr. King, the Supreme Court has apparently decided that the skin colour of your children renders them unable to compete equally with others, so they'll just give them a leg up and everyone in class with them can look at them and wonder, "Did they get here on their own merits, or was it because of their skin colour?" How wonderful that such touchy-feely help your fellow man BS breeds the very racism they're supposedly trying to stamp out.

MAybe he what minorities to be "more equal"

 

[Acanthus]

Thats not equal enough. Minorities should all get skycars in 2005 so they can get to class faster and get extra exclusive learning time with their professors before class. So they can catch up with the white mans obvious advantage in college.

The above sentence is severe sarcasm. I am grossly opposed to AA, Race or Financial background should NOT effect your admission or aid at all. It should be a non-factor in all cases. Financial Aid is the responsibility of the applicant to find the money. Via grants/loans/family/etc.. This should not effect acceptance. There are TONS of programs that help the poor pay for college. Ask my friend who goes to college for FREE.

 

[Rilescat]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Sounds like a good ruling to me. They threw out the arbitrary system but allowed the more thorough system to remain.

If you want to look at this issue fairly the first thing to do is think about what the criteria for determining elegibility should be in the first place ? Test results are a very poor way to decide who gets in, as are high school GPA. Those things measure the school system the student is from as much as they measure the students ability. They also put too much emphasis on easily measurable things like math, science, and less on creativity like art, music, etc. A well balanced university community needs students from all backgrounds and with a variety of skills.

So judging them on their race is a better judge of college worthiness than all of the skills they have learned? I am confused.