Supreme Court to consider Ten Commandments displays

[GTaudiophile]

Way to turn up the heat in this election year...

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[cKGunslinger]

Is having the Ten Commandments displayed truly a sign of 'endorsing" religious beliefs? I can see how some people could interpret it that way, I suppose.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Moses is not just a figure of the Christian religion, but of others as well. While I don't think the "10" endorse Christianity, I would agree that they endorse religion in general.

But I also feel criminals in court need to be reminded of Higher Power. I am all for keeping them...I would put them in every classroom too if I had anything to do with it.

 

[AntiEverything]

There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

 

[CanOWorms]

I'd rather have neutral courthouses and government buildings than having any sort of religious decoration on it. Some of the ten commandments are useless too. I think many would feel uncomfortable with the ten commandments hanging in a court room.

 

[Dedpuhl]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

 

[Pliablemoose]

How about if we take out 1-4:

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Leaving 5-10:

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'


This would clearly appeal to the revisionists out there
😉

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

Many modern laws are derived from the Ten Commandments? I'd think that they were just derived from common sense. It's not like murder would be allowed if there was no Ten Commandments.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

Agreed. It as much a part of history (and reality for that matter) as any face or statue you could put outside the courthouse doors.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

Wrong answer. Our laws come from english laws which come from the code of hammurabi. While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences. Only ignorant religious zealots continue to imply that our laws are religiously based. If you insist on having our laws be related to religion, then you better start worshiping Tiamat, or Enli...because those were the Gods of ancient babylon/summeria where our laws ABSOLUTELY come from.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

Many modern laws are derived from the Ten Commandments? I'd think that they were just derived from common sense. It's not like murder would be allowed if there was no Ten Commandments.

Yes, they were. I never said murder would be allowed if we never had the commandments, but that doesn't invalidate their historical significance and influence, nor does their strong correlation to what you call "common sense."

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
There's no need to have the commandments displayed, they're not US law. They're ancient Hebrew law.

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

Wrong answer. Our laws come from english laws which come from the code of hammurabi. While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences. Only ignorant religious zealots continue to imply that our laws are religiously based. If you insist on having our laws be related to religion, then you better start worshiping Tiamat, or Enli...because those were the Gods of ancient babylon/summeria where our laws ABSOLUTELY come from.

but...but...the ten commandments!!!!!

 

[dnuggett]

While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences.

Lol, do you really believe this?

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Wrong answer. Our laws come from english laws which come from the code of hammurabi. While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences. Only ignorant religious zealots continue to imply that our laws are religiously based. If you insist on having our laws be related to religion, then you better start worshiping Tiamat, or Enli...because those were the Gods of ancient babylon/summeria where our laws ABSOLUTELY come from.

Funny, I don't see the names Tiamat or Enli anywhere in early government documents, yet I do see references to "God" in the Declaration of Independence and others. I am not implying that our nation was founded on the principles of Christianity, only that those principles have influenced the course of the nation over the centuries, for right or wrong.



Edit: And as evidence of the fact that I realize our nation wasn't founded on Christianity, I offer this passage from the Treaty of Tripoli:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [bold text, mine]

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences.

Lol, do you really believe this?

Just try and prove me wrong. Any concerted study of the subject matter immediately reveals the foundings of modern judicial process. It does not lie within the religious sphere. Certainly during the massive war on alternative philosophy led by 'mother rome' there was interference by the church, but the basic principles of law itself predate modern christianity and were in fact formed independent of any church.

 

[Dedpuhl]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Wrong answer. Our laws come from english laws which come from the code of hammurabi. While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences. Only ignorant religious zealots continue to imply that our laws are religiously based. If you insist on having our laws be related to religion, then you better start worshiping Tiamat, or Enli...because those were the Gods of ancient babylon/summeria where our laws ABSOLUTELY come from.

Funny, I don't see the names Tiamat or Enli anywhere in early government documents, yet I do see references to "God" in the Declaration of Independence and others. I am not implying that our nation was founded on the principles of Christianity, only that those principles have influenced the course of the nation over the centuries, for right or wrong.

The Declaration of Independence is a historical document; it is not a legal document.

Heck, if you want to see what the writer of the Declaration thought of Christianity, just take a look at my signature (or surf the net for other writings).

[edit]

I forgot to add this. I really don't know why Jefferson mentions God in the DoI. Maybe he was pressured by other? I dunno...

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Wrong answer. Our laws come from english laws which come from the code of hammurabi. While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences. Only ignorant religious zealots continue to imply that our laws are religiously based. If you insist on having our laws be related to religion, then you better start worshiping Tiamat, or Enli...because those were the Gods of ancient babylon/summeria where our laws ABSOLUTELY come from.

Funny, I don't see the names Tiamat or Enli anywhere in early government documents, yet I do see references to "God" in the Declaration of Independence and others. I am not implying that our nation was founded on the principles of Christianity, only that those principles have influenced the course of the nation over the centuries, for right or wrong.

edited for emotional response

I never said you'll find babylonian mythology in our documents. But our documents are not the truth of our laws. The MEANING of our laws, the METHOD of our laws...that's what matters. Those things are 3000 years old and come down a direct and traceable line from GOVERNMENT, NOT CHURCH.

You find God in SOME of our documents because the people that wrote them are products of a 2000 year long religious genocide. No one doubts the beneifts of having judges, politicians, etc with a belief system. What I'm saying is no thinking person can possibly attribute our legal system to judo-christian mythology.

 

[AntiEverything]

It's one thing for our laws to be loosely based on Christian values. I don't deny that, it was the religion for most Europeans who came to the new world.

However, other than the commandments against murdering and stealing, do any of them apply? Adultery isn't a crime. Neither is disrespecting your parents or being jealous.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: dnuggett

While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences.

Lol, do you really believe this?

Just try and prove me wrong. Any concerted study of the subject matter immediately reveals the foundings of modern judicial process. It does not lie within the religious sphere. Certainly during the massive war on alternative philosophy led by 'mother rome' there was interference by the church, but the basic principles of law itself predate modern christianity and were in fact formed independent of any church.

So you are saying that the Ten Commandments hold no place in the devlopment of our American Law? Yes or no?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: dnuggett

While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences.

Lol, do you really believe this?

Just try and prove me wrong. Any concerted study of the subject matter immediately reveals the foundings of modern judicial process. It does not lie within the religious sphere. Certainly during the massive war on alternative philosophy led by 'mother rome' there was interference by the church, but the basic principles of law itself predate modern christianity and were in fact formed independent of any church.

So you are saying that the Ten Commandments hold no place in the devlopment of our American Law? Yes or no?

The ten commandments have likely influenced some of the people that have interracted with our laws. Hell, just look at the knights of columbus railroading 'under god' thru congress on the back of mccartheism (even though for the most part our founding fathers opposed such inclusion). But that doesn't mean that our laws are BASED on them.

They aren't. At all. Our legal SYSTEM is evolved from other purely civic attempts at a judicial system from the past. Our legal SYSTEM is based on the premise that law is independent of religion....otherwise we could find non-judo-christians guilty of blasphemy or other such. Our legal SYSTEM is established from 3000 years of trial and error and civil models. The very idea of laws enforced by a government and not a church is decended from hammurabi, and it is upon that which our system is founded.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: dnuggett

While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences.

Lol, do you really believe this?

Just try and prove me wrong. Any concerted study of the subject matter immediately reveals the foundings of modern judicial process. It does not lie within the religious sphere. Certainly during the massive war on alternative philosophy led by 'mother rome' there was interference by the church, but the basic principles of law itself predate modern christianity and were in fact formed independent of any church.

So you are saying that the Ten Commandments hold no place in the devlopment of our American Law? Yes or no?

The ten commandments have likely influenced some of the people that have interracted with our laws. Hell, just look at the knights of columbus railroading 'under god' thru congress on the back of mccartheism (even though for the most part our founding fathers opposed such inclusion). But that doesn't mean that our laws are BASED on them.

They aren't. At all. Our legal SYSTEM is evolved from other purely civic attempts at a judicial system from the past. Our legal SYSTEM is based on the premise that law is independent of religion....otherwise we could find non-judo-christians guilty of blasphemy or other such. Our legal SYSTEM is established from 3000 years of trial and error and civil models. The very idea of laws enforced by a government and not a church is decended from hammurabi, and it is upon that which our system is founded.

Thats well and all, but then by your own admittance you are incorrect when you state that there is no Judeo-Christian influence in our laws today.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

edited for emotional response

I never said you'll find babylonian mythology in our documents. But our documents are not the truth of our laws. The MEANING of our laws, the METHOD of our laws...that's what matters. Those things are 3000 years old and come down a direct and traceable line from GOVERNMENT, NOT CHURCH.

You find God in SOME of our documents because the people that wrote them are products of a 2000 year long religious genocide. No one doubts the beneifts of having judges, politicians, etc with a belief system. What I'm saying is no thinking person can possibly attribute our legal system to judo-christian mythology.

LOL - and what I'm saying is that your statement above that our laws "are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences" is completely wrong, as you, yourself, keep pointing out these influences in each of your posts. The laws are made by man - many of whom hold/held Christian beliefs that shaped thier opinions, attitudes, and logic.

Again, I am not implying a ONE-TO-ONE correlation from Christian laws to modern laws, just many direct and indirect influences on them. It doesn't particulary matter to me if they get taken down from court houses, or if some other influential religious symbols are put on them, as long as they hold historical significance.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: dnuggett

While they share many of the same rules, they are 100% independent of any judo-christian religious influences.

Lol, do you really believe this?

Just try and prove me wrong. Any concerted study of the subject matter immediately reveals the foundings of modern judicial process. It does not lie within the religious sphere. Certainly during the massive war on alternative philosophy led by 'mother rome' there was interference by the church, but the basic principles of law itself predate modern christianity and were in fact formed independent of any church.

So you are saying that the Ten Commandments hold no place in the devlopment of our American Law? Yes or no?

Thats well and all, but then by your own addmittance you are incorrect when you state that there is no Judeo-Christian influence in our laws today.


The ten commandments have likely influenced some of the people that have interracted with our laws. Hell, just look at the knights of columbus railroading 'under god' thru congress on the back of mccartheism (even though for the most part our founding fathers opposed such inclusion). But that doesn't mean that our laws are BASED on them.

They aren't. At all. Our legal SYSTEM is evolved from other purely civic attempts at a judicial system from the past. Our legal SYSTEM is based on the premise that law is independent of religion....otherwise we could find non-judo-christians guilty of blasphemy or other such. Our legal SYSTEM is established from 3000 years of trial and error and civil models. The very idea of laws enforced by a government and not a church is decended from hammurabi, and it is upon that which our system is founded.

Here's the original start of my objection:

Yes, from which many modern laws were derived. Laws that these courts uphold. They are historical references, IMO.

That states quite clearly that our modern laws are derived from the 10 commandments, or at least 'ancient hebrew law', by which I assume he means the 10 commandments.

That statement is false.

Religion has influenced the interpretation of law, implementation of law, etc. The derivation of our laws is purely civic in nature, not religious. Religion does not exist on paper, nor in the cogs of government bureaucracy. It lives in the hearts and minds of men where it helps or hinders the interpretation of the pure word of law.

Law itself, as we use it, is civic, not religious.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm speaking of the foundation of our laws...that which they're based upon. That is not religious.

You're talking about individuals and groups using our legal system to implant their own religious seeds. I'm not doubting that at all, merely reminding that those things are abuses of the intent of our legal system, not it's basis.

In other words, I'm talking about theory, you're talking about application.