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Support for same-sex marriage reaches record high

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Actually, a farce would be to let this crap continue on. Strike down SSM, bans nationwide, and move on to more pressing issues.

Yea, why should we treat everyone as equal?

The rightwing dream will take hold, voting only for white male heterosexual landowners. I understand you probably won't like part of that, but that's what you get for being a rightwinger.
 
Yea, why should we treat everyone as equal?

When it comes to marriage, the problem is we do treat everyone equally. We treat homosexuals as if they are heterosexuals-in-disguise, giving them the exact same right and sending them to reconditioning camp when they try to tell us they are different and want a different right.
 
Yea, why should we treat everyone as equal?

The rightwing dream will take hold, voting only for white male heterosexual landowners. I understand you probably won't like part of that, but that's what you get for being a rightwinger.

I'm no flipping "right-winger"....
 
Yea, why should we treat everyone as equal?

The rightwing dream will take hold, voting only for white male heterosexual landowners. I understand you probably won't like part of that, but that's what you get for being a rightwinger.

I hope you realize that many minorities that are religious oppose SSM and not just whites who are religious.
 
When it comes to marriage, the problem is we do treat everyone equally. We treat homosexuals as if they are heterosexuals-in-disguise, giving them the exact same right and sending them to reconditioning camp when they try to tell us they are different and want a different right.

I respect your honesty.

That's why I think pro-SSM arguments should focus on the social policy aspects, such as whether gay married couples adopting kids is beneficial compared to leaving kids in foster homes, the cruel medical rules that refuse to treat life-long gay partners as having superior familial rights than parents or siblings, the lack of spousal privilege for life-long gay partners, etc...

They don't make the argument because they fairly early on figured that it was more effective to just shout: "BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT!!!!" "RIGHTS RIGHTS RIGHTS!!!!!" "DISCRIMINATION DISCRIMINATION!!!"


The second is illegal under a variety of harm-based rationales which will set off an incest debate so I'm not going to discuss them with specifics

And these harm-based rationales only make sense so long as marriage is viewed as being intertwined with sex.

Since same-sex marriage supporters reject this intertwining they cannot justify prohibitions against incestuous marriage.

Since legalizing same-sex marriage necessarily makes incest marriage also a right. This would seem to be the first, in many, harms that will come about by same-sex marriage.

There are social policy reasons for allowing SSM, so the question becomes whether those outweigh the negatives. The graph is designed to belittle those who appear so strongly opposed to SSM that it would seem they fear catastrophic results. The goal is to persuade people the benefits of allowing SSM outweigh the harms by arguing the harms are imaginary.

The harms are not imaginary. As I pointed out. Supporting same-sex marriage necessarily requires supporting incest marriage as well if you want to be consistent.

Part of the problem though is that same-sex marriage is largely a symptom rather than a causative agent. Its like trying to argue that shouting someone a 6th time is wrong based on it harming. The real harm was in shooting him the first 5 times.
 
Yea, why should we treat everyone as equal?

The rightwing dream will take hold, voting only for white male heterosexual landowners. I understand you probably won't like part of that, but that's what you get for being a rightwinger.

As opposed to the left-wing dream where you get bonus votes based on being transgendered, lesbian, a woman, an illegal immigrant, etc?
 
They don't make the argument because they fairly early on figured that it was more effective to just shout: "BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT!!!!" "RIGHTS RIGHTS RIGHTS!!!!!" "DISCRIMINATION DISCRIMINATION!!!"

Horsefuckingshit. That argument is brought up all the goddamn time, only rebutted by yourself with "nuh uh!--see, this outdated study from 1965 shows that gay parents will make kids gay!"

Just because you ignore these arguments over and over again, or simply outright refute them with obsolete and spurious data, does not mean they are not being made.


You said something earlier about liberals using the same argument over and over as if repetition will make it correct.

I still laugh that you you, of all people, would say such a thing. 😀

toaster.
 
You are playing a word game by using generalities so you can avoid analyzing the actual application in specific instances. My analysis will provide consistent results, although I suppose you could argue I was being lazy by using "man" and "woman" and should have clearly identified specific individuals.

Assume John Doe, a black man, and Jane Doe, a black woman, are siblings; Mary Smith, a white woman, is unrelated to them.

John Doe and Jane Doe CANNOT get married.
John Doe and Mary Smith CAN get married.
Jane Doe and Mary Smith CANNOT get married.

The specifics help us identify whether and how a law discriminates. Jane DOE and Mary Smith are treated differently, based on familial status, so we analyze whether <arguments against incest> constitute a legitimate purpose. John Doe and Jane Doe are treated differently, based on gender, so we analyze whether <arguments against SSM> constitute a legitimate purpose.

Here, let me demonstrate why it is important to use specifics:

Jane Doe can ride Bus #247
Mary Smith can ride Bus #247

Jane Doe can ride on at least one end of Bus #247
Mary Smith can ride on at least one end of Bus #247

Jane Doe CANNOT ride on the front of Bus #247
Mary Smith CAN ride on the front of Bus #247
We are finally showing discrimination, but even better:

Jane Doe CANNOT sit on the first seat of Bus #247
Mary Smith CAN sit on the first seat of Bus #247

The above example shows how analyzing specific can show hidden discrimination. Analyzing specifics can also work the other way, to show a lack of discrimination.

Jane Doe, a private sector employee, CAN be fired without due process
Mary Smith, a public sector employee, CANNOT be fired without due process. BUT, with specifics we see:

If Jane Doe is hired as a second grade teacher in classroom #2 at Rising Star Public Elementary School, she CANNOT be fired without due process.

If Mary Smith is hired as a second grade teacher in classroom #2 at Rising Star Public Elementary School, she CANNOT be fired without due process.

If you analyze specific circumstances and test whether specific individuals are treated differently in those circumstances, you have a consistent means for identifying discrimination.


Fair warning: you are exhausting a lot of brain power and time trying to argue with an individual that honestly believes that the scenario of engaging in a committed relationship with his toaster is perfectly analogous to homosexual relationships, and the SSM issue.
 
A better option would be to simply have children born as genderless and nameless babies till about their third birthday ( when they allegedly "identify"), to clean this confusion on up.

So is this one of those topics that you mentally skip over because it doesn't match what you think you know?

Gender identity studies go back to the 1960's; this isn't something that was started last year.
 
Fair warning: you are exhausting a lot of brain power and time trying to argue with an individual that honestly believes that the scenario of engaging in a committed relationship with his toaster is perfectly analogous to homosexual relationships, and the SSM issue.

I'm just following liberal logic.

If anyone says a relationship is marriage then it is! Equality for ALL!
 
Is this really an issue in 2014? Who cares for christ sake, are gay people constantly shoving their marriage vows in your face? Were you invited to all 5 of your lesbian sisters weddings?


There has to be a personal reason for why people oppose this because I don't get it.
 
There has to be a personal reason for why people oppose this because I don't get it.

The "personal" reason is primarily because many people aren't ever exposed to well-adjusted, committed gay couples, so they can continue believing in stereotypes as though the flamboyant gays at a Pride parade represent the entirety of gay culture. Dick Cheney is as conservative as they come on most issues, but he's pro-gay (comparatively) because he happens to have a gay daughter. A personal connection is the best way to dispel cultural stereotypes. I used to be anti-redneck in my high school years until I made friends with a down-home country boy in college who was one of the nicest people I've ever met. Everybody has their prejudices, and it's only when you develop a relationship with someone who defies them that you're able to set them aside.
 
The "personal" reason is primarily because many people aren't ever exposed to well-adjusted, committed gay couples, so they can continue believing in stereotypes as though the flamboyant gays at a Pride parade represent the entirety of gay culture. Dick Cheney is as conservative as they come on most issues, but he's pro-gay (comparatively) because he happens to have a gay daughter. A personal connection is the best way to dispel cultural stereotypes. I used to be anti-redneck in my high school years until I made friends with a down-home country boy in college who was one of the nicest people I've ever met. Everybody has their prejudices, and it's only when you develop a relationship with someone who defies them that you're able to set them aside.
WTF does the pride parade say about being "well adjusted"? So they dance around on TV and kiss and act camp, how is that "degenerate" or offensive?



Seriously change the channel if you don't like the parade. If you don't like camp, don't go to gay clubs and bars. The amount of times I've been offended by a gay person (or a person I thought was gay) is minuscule from the number of straight bro douchebags that annoy me on a weekly basis.
 
So is this one of those topics that you mentally skip over because it doesn't match what you think you know?

Gender identity studies go back to the 1960's; this isn't something that was started last year.

Libs are trying to blur the lines between man and woman -- I'm saying let's save the trouble and make "baby" the office term of newborns.

"Being" would be even better...at least, to designate a human.
Gender can come later.
 
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Possibly one of the dumbest statements I've ever read here on P&N and that's saying a lot.

That's because I'm probably referring to you.

Find any trangender thread, and notice the amount of libs who say "she can identify with whomever she wants to", when referencing a male child.

Don't call your first child (or next child) a boy or girl, just call it a being, and let it choose for itself.
 
That's because I'm probably referring to you.

Find any trangender thread, and notice the amount of libs who say "she can identify with whomever she wants to", when referencing a male child.

Don't call your first child (or next child) a boy or girl, just call it a being, and let it choose for itself.

Gosh, you got me there. That's a stinger for sure. God loves you, everyone else thinks you're an asshole
 
WTF does the pride parade say about being "well adjusted"? So they dance around on TV and kiss and act camp, how is that "degenerate" or offensive?



Seriously change the channel if you don't like the parade. If you don't like camp, don't go to gay clubs and bars. The amount of times I've been offended by a gay person (or a person I thought was gay) is minuscule from the number of straight bro douchebags that annoy me on a weekly basis.

Yeah, Atomic Playboy! You don't have to like the gays, but they still have a right to be themselves! We don't care if you're offended by lesbians raising children, for example! They can still make great parents, no matter what small-minded people like you think!


😉
 
As long as the government doesn't arbitrarily discriminate (by which I mean doesn't have a truly rational and compelling reason for making distinctions) then I have no trouble with "marriage benefits" and "marriage penalties" being given to or withheld from ALL marital unions by the government.
That would cause a lot of problems though. We'd have to rework all our tax and inheritance laws, for instance. Practically speaking it would be very difficult for government to back out of recognizing marriage in a modern society.

I do out of general principle, just because it already exists it becomes a "we would rather get rid of it all together before we let them people marry" issue. It's gone way past the line of common sense and tactics, at this point it is about society via the government acknowledging that homosexual love is equal to heterosexual love. I think that is needed to close the wound.
Personally I don't give a crap about closing the wound. Homosexuals can put on their big girl panties and get over it. I DO care about pointless government discrimination though.

The need for analysis and dissection is a symptom of the problem, which is simply that many people want to discriminate against another group and prefer to hide behind rationalisations and pseudo-logic which they haven't really thought about rather than just out-right admit that they "think what homosexuals do is icky".

I think this sort of behaviour is simply evolved playground politics, many people just want to feel superior by giving someone else a hard time, and here's a chance to do that.

I think Stonewall's recent ad was quite good at pointing this sort of thing out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agLrVvCUkzI
There may be some of that, but there were valid reasons for such discrimination in the past. But like so many things, such discrimination far outlives its actual usefulness. It's been at least a century since forbidding gays to marry did much beyond making people feel better about their society or assuaging the ick factor.
 
The "personal" reason is primarily because many people aren't ever exposed to well-adjusted, committed gay couples, so they can continue believing in stereotypes as though the flamboyant gays at a Pride parade represent the entirety of gay culture. Dick Cheney is as conservative as they come on most issues, but he's pro-gay (comparatively) because he happens to have a gay daughter. A personal connection is the best way to dispel cultural stereotypes. I used to be anti-redneck in my high school years until I made friends with a down-home country boy in college who was one of the nicest people I've ever met. Everybody has their prejudices, and it's only when you develop a relationship with someone who defies them that you're able to set them aside.
Well said, sir. There are damned few people without prejudices, and even fewer without prejudices but with principles, but probably seldom are prejudices really useful. As more gays come out, this tends to be a self-solving problem as people discover they know someone normal who also happens to be gay. It only takes one individual to render a particular prejudice invalid.
 
Well said, sir. There are damned few people without prejudices, and even fewer without prejudices but with principles, but probably seldom are prejudices really useful. As more gays come out, this tends to be a self-solving problem as people discover they know someone normal who also happens to be gay. It only takes one individual to render a particular prejudice invalid.

And as the data in this thread shows, Republicans are also steadily increasing support for gay marriage, even if it's not in the majority yet. It's really just a matter of time.
 
And as the data in this thread shows, Republicans are also steadily increasing support for gay marriage, even if it's not in the majority yet. It's really just a matter of time.
Of course. We've already been exposed to the lunatic gay fringe for decades; now we're increasingly being exposed to normal gay people who did not want to be socially ostracized by being identified as gay. As the stigma becomes less, more gay people come out to more non-gay people, which further reduces the stigma. Rinse and repeat. I give it two, maybe three years before the same sex marriage ban is struck down all across the nation.
 
I do out of general principle, just because it already exists it becomes a "we would rather get rid of it all together before we let them people marry" issue. It's gone way past the line of common sense and tactics, at this point it is about society via the government acknowledging that homosexual love is equal to heterosexual love. I think that is needed to close the wound.

Homosexual love isn't equal to heterosexual love though. Just like platonic love isn't equal to heterosexual love. Which is why there is no government acknowledgment of BFFships.

But hey thanks for admitting the truth that advocacy of SSM isn't about "rights" but instead about trying to shove left-wing lies about how everything is equal down societies throat
 
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