Supply side economics used as a cover to end schools/medicare/soc. security?

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BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
The Apocalypse is upon us when BOBDN starts lecturing people on how Christians should believe.
Why shouldn't he? It's not like Christians listen when other Christians are lecturing . . . take Stanley Hauerwas for instance.

You have been labeled as a "pacifist," a "sectarian" and a "fideistic tribalist" ? among other things. How would you like to define yourself?

I'm a Christian. I get those kind of labels because I am trying to remind Christians that what it means to be a Christian and what it means to be an American are not the same thing. Many people interpret that as a kind of withdrawal strategy, but I'm not withdrawing. I have no difficulty with Christians being involved with politics. I just want them to be there as Christians.

As a Christian, if George Bush had come to you and said, "Stanley, what should I do?" What would you have told him?

It's a tricky question because, if he had asked me, he wouldn't have been President! (Laugh) So, I'd say, "You need to tell the American people the truth." This is still about oil. We intervened in Kuwait to protect Saudi oil. You can say, "Well, gee, don't you think you ought to oppose a tyrant?" Look, the United States is very selective about which tyrant it's going to pursue. When Indonesia invaded East Timor twenty-five years ago, we didn't do anything. Why? East Timor didn't have any strategic interest to us. Bin Laden is clearly motivated by the fact that the United States is in Saudi Arabia. We're in Saudi Arabia to protect the oil. We need to say that the reason America has such a problem is because we're such a rich country, and we depend on the resources of the rest of the world. Therefore, maybe the best thing we could do? I mean, rather than saying, "Well, what can you do to support a reaction against bin Laden" ? rather than saying "Go out and shop" ? maybe he should have said we should put a three dollar tax on gas. (Laugh) That way we won't use so much of it. That would have been a sacrifice. Yeah, I'd say, "Tell the American people the truth about these matters." I'm not sure that people around the Bush Administration even know the truth because they need to tell themselves lies about what they're doing ? and they believe the lies ? in order to carry forward.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami

who benefits the most from farm subsidies? not farmers. large corporations that own factory farms which put small farmers out of business. but this is fine since they are "more efficient". oh wait it is not more efficient when you factor in the subsidies...

Yes, corporate farming gets "most" but they also produce the "most". You also can't tell me that the small farmer is "innocent" - I've seen many small(and I mean small) farmers who have new tractors every couple of years, and always had a New Chevy or Ford Pick-up in their driveway - yet were "poor farmers". Sure not all "small" farmers did but the "smart" ones who play the system well did. Couldn't buy clothes for their kids because they were "poor", but had a shiny new truck in the driveway thanks to the gov't.;) don't get me wrong - it is a two way street. It just ALL needs to be addressed - not just blamed on one side of issue - they are ALL at fault for leeching- both individuals and corporations.

The whole welfare mentality of "I am entitled to....because....and the gov't should give it to me" is what is wrong - whether it be industry or individuals.

CkG

The amount of corporate subsidies is hard to equate with the amount small family farmers get. And why envy people for a pick up truck or a new tractor? Should they drive a dilapidated truck and plow by hand? They are permitted to use equipment and, as large corporations have always know and taken advantage of, equipment depreciates and at a certain point you lose money by driving a piece of junk.

All those truck and tractor sales are great for the economy as well. (Do we make any trucks and tractors in America anymore?) :)

Also it's not a welfare mentality for people to expect something for the tax dollars they send to Washington every week.

It's a welfare mentality when people who don't pay any taxes, the largest US corporations as well as those who run offshore to evade taxes, get billions back in subsidies while small independent family farms are facing extinction.

Who said anything about envy? I don't envy them - they can hardly make a living because the market isn't truly self driven. You seem to not have a clue about farm subsidies so you best educate yourself. Milk doesn't come from a store - it comes from a Cow. Your cereal doesn't come from a store - it comes from a farmer. Your meat doesn't come from the meat counter - it comes from the farmer.;)

Ofcourse new equipment sales helps the "economy" but where are they getting the $$$? That's right - YOU AND ME. Not of from their own hard work - but from the AG welfare policies that are in place.

You think the largest US corporations don't pay taxes? Buahaha. They pay plenty in taxes. You are a prime example of the "I deserve...because...so the gov't should give it to me" mentality.

Now, please tell me why a small farmer should be propped up by the gov't because they aren't competitive in the marketplace.
Now tell me why a corporation should be propped up by the gov't if they aren't competitive.?
I answer the same way for both questions...how about you?
It doesn't matter the gross "amount" because if you looked at it - I'm sure the ratio of production to "welfare" received the AG industry(farming) gets quite a bit more "free" $$$ than the other big bad evil corporations. Oh, and just one more thing - how do you think most farmers file their taxes? Business?;)
You can rail on and on about the big bad evil corporations but they aren't the only problem in respect to gov't "welfare". It'd be nice to see you become consistent in your "welfare" views, BOBDN, hopefully someday you will.

CkG
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,342
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami

who benefits the most from farm subsidies? not farmers. large corporations that own factory farms which put small farmers out of business. but this is fine since they are "more efficient". oh wait it is not more efficient when you factor in the subsidies...

Yes, corporate farming gets "most" but they also produce the "most". You also can't tell me that the small famer is "innocent" - I've seen many small(and I mean small) farmers who have new tractors every couple of years, and always had a New Chevy or Ford Pick-up in their driveway - yet were "poor farmers". Sure not all "small" farmers did but the "smart" ones who play the system well did. Couldn't buy clothes for their kids because they were "poor", but had a shiny new truck in the driveway thanks to the gov't.;) don't get me wrong - it is a two way street. It just ALL needs to be addressed - not just blamed on one side of issue - they are ALL at fault for leeching- both individuals and corporations.

The whole welfare mentality of "I am entitled to....because....and the gov't should give it to me" is what is wrong - wether it be industry or individuals.

CkG

The amount of corporate subsidies is hard to equate with the amount small family farmers get. And why envy people for a pick up truck or a new tractor? Should they drive a dilapidated truck and plow by hand? They are permitted to use equipment and, as large corporations have always know and taken advantage of, equipment depreciates and at a certain point you lose money by driving a piece of junk.

All those truck and tractor sales are great for the economy as well. (Do we make any trucks and tractors in America anymore?) :)

Also it's not a welfare mentality for people to expect something for the tax dollars they send to Washington every week.

It's a welfare mentality when people who don't pay any taxes, the largest US corporations as well as those who run offshore to evade taxes, get billions back in subsidies while small independent family farms are facing extinction.
The problem is in exactly what people are expecting for the tax dollars they send to Washington every week. They shouldn't expect a liquid ROI.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
numbers of doctors have been caught, but u can bet there's plenty more. you can google search that. patients and doctors conspire to abuse the system together which makes it harder. i'm not familiar with medicare all that much so i would not know how to reform it specifically, but as with any large government bureacracy i know that it can be reformed to be better
So if 0.07% of all doctors have been caught and you estimate abuse is 10x higher then you can expect less than 1% of physicians cheat the system. Considering doctors' fees have fallen to 3rd or 4th in the healthcare cost hierarchy your savings are pocket change. As a member of the profession . . . that has indeed conspired to get the system to pay for necessary care . . . I must admit . . . you don't scare me. Until the day I die, the needs of a patient (within reasonable limits) ALWAYS come before other concerns.

Our system of healthcare and healthcare financing desperately needs reform but government at all levels AND corporate enterprises feed at the trough paid for by citizens. Elect some real leadership and you may get efficient AND effective healthcare (not necessarily cheaper). There's waste everywhere and there is indeed mad dollars that can be put to better use . . . but don't confuse the hype of an HCAColumbia (google Frist), HealthSouth, lowlife doctors/lawyers, etc . . . with the primary problems with healthcare in America. Those are symptoms . . .
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,342
0
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
numbers of doctors have been caught, but u can bet there's plenty more. you can google search that. patients and doctors conspire to abuse the system together which makes it harder. i'm not familiar with medicare all that much so i would not know how to reform it specifically, but as with any large government bureacracy i know that it can be reformed to be better
So if 0.07% of all doctors have been caught and you estimate abuse is 10x higher then you can expect less than 1% of physicians cheat the system. Considering doctors' fees have fallen to 3rd or 4th in the healthcare cost hierarchy your savings are pocket change. As a member of the profession . . . that has indeed conspired to get the system to pay for necessary care . . . I must admit . . . you don't scare me. Until the day I die, the needs of a patient (within reasonable limits) ALWAYS come before other concerns.

Our system of healthcare and healthcare financing desperately needs reform but government at all levels AND corporate enterprises feed at the trough paid for by citizens. Elect some real leadership and you may get efficient AND effective healthcare (not necessarily cheaper). There's waste everywhere and there is indeed mad dollars that can be put to better use . . . but don't confuse the hype of an HCAColumbia (google Frist), HealthSouth, lowlife doctors/lawyers, etc . . . with the primary problems with healthcare in America. Those are symptoms . . .
Good post. My ex-wife is a surgeon, and I used to hear her ranting about problems with the system all the time. She always believed that it was flawed at a structural level. Her favorite topic was preventitive care. She had to turn down patients because they couldn't get their insurance to pay for all the expenses of a surgical procedure (surgeon, hospital stay, anasthesiologist, etc.) or the hospital itself would deny people who didn't have insurance. As a result, fairly simple preventitive procedures would turn into very costly emergency ones, prolonged hospital stays, etc. It used to frustrate the hell out of her.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
social security is doomed to failure regardless. medicare most likely as well. its not like spending or tax cuts just happen in a vacuum.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Before you can attempt to fix Health Care in the US you have to define what Health Care really means. Are all people entitled to Health Care regardless of their ability to pay? Assume they are. You must then provide for the Infrastructure, Staff and Supplies (Rx included). The basic Charter is unknown so how do you start to fix it. You don't know any of the constituent part requirements and the interrelationships that could be in play.
Supply Side, Demand Side any Side has no implication to the Health Care Industry other than fueling from one direction or another the beast that eats and eats without anyone knowing what to feed the beast, where it is or how big it is.. just that a beast is somewhere, they think.
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,342
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Before you can attempt to fix Health Care in the US you have to define what Health Care really means. Are all people entitled to Health Care regardless of their ability to pay? Assume they are. You must then provide for the Infrastructure, Staff and Supplies (Rx included). The basic Charter is unknown so how do you start to fix it. You don't know any of the constituent part requirements and the interrelationships that could be in play.
Supply Side, Demand Side any Side has no implication to the Health Care Industry other than fueling from one direction or another the beast that eats and eats without anyone knowing what to feed the beast, where it is or how big it is.. just that a beast is somewhere, they think.
The problem I was attempting to show is that no L1TC can deny life saving service, regardless of ability to pay. In the end, this can cost hospitals more than simple preventitive care.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: amok
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Before you can attempt to fix Health Care in the US you have to define what Health Care really means. Are all people entitled to Health Care regardless of their ability to pay? Assume they are. You must then provide for the Infrastructure, Staff and Supplies (Rx included). The basic Charter is unknown so how do you start to fix it. You don't know any of the constituent part requirements and the interrelationships that could be in play.
Supply Side, Demand Side any Side has no implication to the Health Care Industry other than fueling from one direction or another the beast that eats and eats without anyone knowing what to feed the beast, where it is or how big it is.. just that a beast is somewhere, they think.
The problem I was attempting to show is that no L1TC can deny life saving service, regardless of ability to pay. In the end, this can cost hospitals more than simple preventitive care.

To me this is symptomatic of a larger problem (as it is to you, I'm sure) If we (whomever WE are) could at long last define the service the Health Industry is to provide we'd eliminate lots of issues. For instance; if Universal Heath Care for all Citizens is the Service to be provided then they would logically conclude that preventive care was an essential part and it would be provided.
If Health Care was a Government Department (God forbid). Then no matter who came in they would render service. Like the VA for Veterans or Navy Hospital for those qualified. I had an occasion to go to the Naval Hospital in San Diego recently, it seemed a vacant building. I'm sure there are lots of people there But, I didn't see many. The VA in La Jolla on the other hand seemed to have folks waiting in the hallway for a clinic visit.
It is time for us to demand the Congress determine what is this nation's philosophy on the issue and go about starting at the top and working down. MED/MAL could be a thing of the past if we could establish a simple universal standard of care and if that was not met then X$ was the compensation for the tort. Have a Independenet Committee to oversee the operations so if a Surgeon cuts off the wrong leg and you get X$ not have to go to court. If you don't agree you'd have to have a really good case before an attorney would take the case on percentage deal.
And on and on..

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
The problems we face are insurmountable . . . and I'm an optimist.

Hospital care is probably the largest single expense but the majority of centers in the US are now for-profit organizations. They must compete for full-price patients (wealthy from Arab sheiks to American CEOs) by having spacious private rooms with hardwood floors, marble-tiled baths, and amenities that might shame a luxury hotel. The typical bed bill is $800-$1000 per night . . . and that's without actual care . . . that's the cost of occupying the bed. The waste in billing and overcharges will not stop until rigid price controls are established.

#2 on the expense list is medications. Even if it hasn't overtaken doctor salaries it's only a matter of time before drug costs alone will be the single most expensive aspect of our system. This again is indicative of how market forces AND government regulation has warped the system. Contrary to the BS in the multibillion dollar per year Big Pharma enterprise advertising . . . most "new" drugs in the past decade are neither lifesavers or revolutionary. The majority have been lifestyle meds (sildenafil) or reformulations (desloratidine). Granted, I don't have a better solution for erectile dysfunction but the $1.5B funneled to Pfizer could certainly be better spent. Clarinex (desloratidine) is no more effective than its generic sibling (loratidine) and neither surpasses the efficacy of good ol' diphenhydramine (Benadryl). The primary killers in America (hypertension, diabetes) are not only effectively treated and prevented by lifestyle interventions and preventative healthcare guidance . . . but many non-patented therapies . . . fish oil, aspirin, multi-vitamins, generic statins, generic diuretics, generic beta blockers . . . are as effective and dramatically cheaper than the "new" therapies being pushed by Big Pharma . . . and unfortunately . . . physicians.

#3 is probably physicians but hey unless you plan to make medical education free . . . you gotta provide decent cheddar. On the otherhand, physician fee schedules for procedures need reform. If you visit the typical primary care doctor, he isn't paid jack for telling you to stay out of the sun, wear a hat, and use sunscreen liberally. If you come in the office with an atypical nevi, he gets paid $120 to remove it . . . which costs $5 (rubber gloves, alcohol swab, lidocaine, syringe, needle, disposal blade, and a Band-Aid . . . we can splurge and give you a name brand . . . but if I'm a cheapskate I will fold some gauze and tape it on). If that sample is sent for pathology . . . even if I think it's not cancerous . . . the fee doubles. Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance all have a similar schedule for this type of procedure.

#4 Insurance: Health insurance is the biggest crock of poo. It is nothing but a drag on the system. Companies are just skimming one-tenth of all healthcare dollars to provide superfluous employment (if you don't take care of people . . . you are not a healthcare provider) and dividends to investors. The only reason health insurance isn't higher on the list is b/c government is the primary insurer/payer for Medicare/Medicaid recipients. These programs typically require half the administrative costs of comparable private plans. Unfortunately, all third payer systems exact a bureaucratic expense on providers.

#5 tort : Lawsuits do affect the expense of our system. The lawyers are lying when they say they are not responsible for some healthcare inflation. The doctors, hospitals, insurers, and politicians are lying when they imply tort reform will help significantly. The truth is that bad doctors exist in America. Neither the profession nor the government have done much to cull the herd. Regarldess of what their motivation may be . . . umm money . . . arguably lawyers have been the most effective at highlighting the inadequacies of hospitals and physicians. Defensive medicine is only used by doctors that don't know what they are doing. Sometimes that's the unavoidable diagnostic uncertainty that comes with an uncertain science. Sometimes that's incompetence. People deserve fair compensation for the latter.

In the end, no one wants to acknowledge they are part of the problem. No one wants to tell healthcare consumers that their expectations are unrealistic (when it comes to care and costs). And no one wants to be held responsible when practical reform fails. Reform will fail b/c everyone in the society (except for possibly the working uninsured) is reasonably satisfied with the dysfunctional status quo.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Herr Doktor Doc,

The problems we face are insurmountable . . . and I'm an optimist.

Your post is encouraging! The physician who continues to climb the never ending climb in search of the non existing cure gets my vote and applause for the effort.

Hospital care is probably the largest single expense but the majority of centers in the US are now for-profit organizations. They must compete for full-price patients (wealthy from Arab sheiks to American CEOs) by having spacious private rooms with hardwood floors, marble-tiled baths, and amenities that might shame a luxury hotel. The typical bed bill is $800-$1000 per night . . . and that's without actual care . . . that's the cost of occupying the bed. The waste in billing and overcharges will not stop until rigid price controls are established.

This is my gripe about the Charter for the HC Industry. What and who are you folks suppose to staff to? How many luxury suites and how many steerage suites and where? All should be able to have steerage suites of six per room. Rich folks can pay for the right to be in luxuary by dues to the club. Maybe even another tier... second class where there are only two per room.


#2 on the expense list is medications. Even if it hasn't overtaken doctor salaries it's only a matter of time before drug costs alone will be the single most expensive aspect of our system. This again is indicative of how market forces AND government regulation has warped the system. Contrary to the BS in the multibillion dollar per year Big Pharma enterprise advertising . . . most "new" drugs in the past decade are neither lifesavers or revolutionary. The majority have been lifestyle meds (sildenafil) or reformulations (desloratidine). Granted, I don't have a better solution for erectile dysfunction but the $1.5B funneled to Pfizer could certainly be better spent. Clarinex (desloratidine) is no more effective than its generic sibling (loratidine) and neither surpasses the efficacy of good ol' diphenhydramine (Benadryl). The primary killers in America (hypertension, diabetes) are not only effectively treated and prevented by lifestyle interventions and preventative healthcare guidance . . . but many non-patented therapies . . . fish oil, aspirin, multi-vitamins, generic statins, generic diuretics, generic beta blockers . . . are as effective and dramatically cheaper than the "new" therapies being pushed by Big Pharma . . . and unfortunately . . . physicians.

I read your post and looked up one of the meds the VA provides free to me. They list it on the bottle as Lansoprazol but the little capsules say Prevacid 30mg and I take two a day. I found them listed as $3 and change a unit. I then almost had a heart attack! :) I can't imagine anything costing that much. I seem to remember lots of TV adds on the product. So the VA pays for the manufacturer to advertise. I wonder how much the VA pays for them?
I sorta view the Rx industry in a manner akin to the utilities... I did a case study on Pfizer a century ago and forgot what I concluded but remember their structure was out of sync with their product development. I also remember something about Elavil (aka) Amitrytaline (sp?) at 25mg being as effective as aspirin for pain control but, marketed, at that dose, as an ineffective anti depressant or something but, MD's wanted that dose for some reason. (Might not have been Pfizer)
I think there should be a right to profit from the development as long as 'orphan' drugs are held low in price. On second thought, I haven't a clue how to deal with the Med issue.



#3 is probably physicians but hey unless you plan to make medical education free . . . you gotta provide decent cheddar. On the otherhand, physician fee schedules for procedures need reform. If you visit the typical primary care doctor, he isn't paid jack for telling you to stay out of the sun, wear a hat, and use sunscreen liberally. If you come in the office with an atypical nevi, he gets paid $120 to remove it . . . which costs $5 (rubber gloves, alcohol swab, lidocaine, syringe, needle, disposal blade, and a Band-Aid . . . we can splurge and give you a name brand . . . but if I'm a cheapskate I will fold some gauze and tape it on). If that sample is sent for pathology . . . even if I think it's not cancerous . . . the fee doubles. Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance all have a similar schedule for this type of procedure.

I'm all for free ride for the Med School. Associate it with local hospitals. As long as there is a committment to providing Pro Bono care in one of the 'steerage' clinics on Wedensday for a time :) Medicine should be provided without the need to be sure to be sure to avoid a law suit. In a hospital it is rather easy to weed out the incompetent. Therefore, if a MD screws up because she is incompetent then Au Revoir.


#4 Insurance: Health insurance is the biggest crock of poo. It is nothing but a drag on the system. Companies are just skimming one-tenth of all healthcare dollars to provide superfluous employment (if you don't take care of people . . . you are not a healthcare provider) and dividends to investors. The only reason health insurance isn't higher on the list is b/c government is the primary insurer/payer for Medicare/Medicaid recipients. These programs typically require half the administrative costs of comparable private plans. Unfortunately, all third payer systems exact a bureaucratic expense on providers.

I vote we all have health care available. Eliminate the Insurance Industry. Establish a general fee schedule and give the MD the right to determine needed care. Each is paid for her service with no change based on sending off to pathology other that shipping costs. The payment for this comes from the general fund which gets its $ from general revenue. Yup.. everyone is taxed but, the healthy get recognized in some TBD fashion. I don't want folks not going for preventive care to get a refund.


#5 tort : Lawsuits do affect the expense of our system. The lawyers are lying when they say they are not responsible for some healthcare inflation. The doctors, hospitals, insurers, and politicians are lying when they imply tort reform will help significantly. The truth is that bad doctors exist in America. Neither the profession nor the government have done much to cull the herd. Regarldess of what their motivation may be . . . umm money . . . arguably lawyers have been the most effective at highlighting the inadequacies of hospitals and physicians. Defensive medicine is only used by doctors that don't know what they are doing. Sometimes that's the unavoidable diagnostic uncertainty that comes with an uncertain science. Sometimes that's incompetence. People deserve fair compensation for the latter.

Standard fee schedule for incompetent care. The coverage is paid by the hospital and or physician and each is evaluated and charged accordingly. Causes the hospital to weed out the potential problem MD's

In the end, no one wants to acknowledge they are part of the problem. No one wants to tell healthcare consumers that their expectations are unrealistic (when it comes to care and costs). And no one wants to be held responsible when practical reform fails. Reform will fail b/c everyone in the society (except for possibly the working uninsured) is reasonably satisfied with the dysfunctional status quo

I know two things for sure. First) The problem is massive and Second) We need to start somewhere to fix it and I suggest at the top... Develop a Charter and determine the scope of who ought to be covered. If everyone, fine. Then we know where to start. If only those who can afford it, fine (not really) but, then we also know where to start. No solution will fit both philosophies so why start till we know which is the way to go... aside from MED/MAL which is not really health care and can be fixed by keeping the lawyer and court out of it... unless a real dispute exists.. like ineffective erectile dysfunction care..