Supply side economics used as a cover to end schools/medicare/soc. security?

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
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The title is the cliffnotes version of this NYT magazine article by Paul Krugman.

While I fear that any discussion of this article will degrade into personal attacks directed towards the author, it would be nice to see some of the stronger conservative thinkers here actually address the key points of Krugman's case. Here's a few good ones for starters:

Riley, a Republican, was a staunch supporter of tax cuts. Faced with a fiscal crisis in his state, however, he seems to have had an epiphany. He decided that it was impossible to balance Alabama's budget without a significant tax increase. And that, apparently, led him to reconsider everything. ''The largest tax increase in state history just to maintain the status quo?'' he asked. ''I don't think so.'' Instead, Riley proposed a wholesale restructuring of the state's tax system: reducing taxes on the poor and middle class while raising them on corporations and the rich and increasing overall tax receipts enough to pay for a big increase in education spending.

Did Bob Riley really propose such an un-Republican tax restructuring?


If taxes stay as low as they are now, government as we know it cannot be maintained. In particular, Social Security will have to become far less generous; Medicare will no longer be able to guarantee comprehensive medical care to older Americans; Medicaid will no longer provide basic medical care to the poor.

This sounds a little speculative and alarmist - anyone care to link economic projections that argue otherwise?


though most Americans feel that they pay too much in taxes, they get off quite lightly compared with the citizens of other advanced countries. Furthermore, for most Americans tax rates probably haven't risen for a generation. And a few Americans -- namely those with high incomes -- face much lower taxes than they did a generation ago.
...
By 2002, the tax take was down to 26.3 percent of G.D.P., and all indications are that it will be lower still this year and next.

This is a low number compared with almost every other advanced country. In 1999, Canada collected 38.2 percent of G.D.P. in taxes, France collected 45.8 percent and Sweden, 52.2 percent.

Still, aren't taxes much higher than they used to be? Not if we're looking back over the past 30 years. As a share of G.D.P., federal taxes are currently at their lowest point since the Eisenhower administration. State and local taxes rose substantially between 1960 and the early 1970's, but have been roughly stable since then. Aside from the capital gains taxes paid during the bubble years, the share of income Americans pay in taxes has been flat since Richard Nixon was president.


Anyone care to defend the "regular Americans pay too much taxes" argument with numbers to counter these?


By the time the Bush tax cuts have taken full effect, people with really high incomes will face their lowest average tax rate since the Hoover administration.

Bringing up associations the Hoover administration is like using a bad word... ouch.


Supply-side economics was a political doctrine from Day 1; it emerged in the pages of political magazines, not professional economics journals.

Fact or fiction?


It is not that the professionals refuse to consider supply-side ideas; rather, they have looked at them and found them wanting. A conspicuous example came earlier this year when the Congressional Budget Office tried to evaluate the growth effects of the Bush administration's proposed tax cuts. The budget office's new head, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, is a conservative economist who was handpicked for his job by the administration. But his conclusion was that unless the revenue losses from the proposed tax cuts were offset by spending cuts, the resulting deficits would be a drag on growth, quite likely to outweigh any supply-side effects.

Straight from Bush's CBO's mouth...


Irving Kristol, in his role as co-editor of The Public Interest, was arguably the single most important proponent of supply-side economics. But years later, he suggested that he himself wasn't all that persuaded by the doctrine: ''I was not certain of its economic merits but quickly saw its political possibilities.'' Writing in 1995, he explained that his real aim was to shrink the government and that tax cuts were a means to that end: ''The task, as I saw it, was to create a new majority, which evidently would mean a conservative majority, which came to mean, in turn, a Republican majority -- so political effectiveness was the priority, not the accounting deficiencies of government.''

In effect, what Kristol said in 1995 was that he and his associates set out to deceive the American public. They sold tax cuts on the pretense that they would be painless, when they themselves believed that it would be necessary to slash public spending in order to make room for those cuts.


Misquoted? Taken out of context? If not, this is a pretty damning statement.


The test of tax cuts as a spur to economic growth is whether they produced more than an ordinary business cycle recovery. Once the economy was back to full employment, was it bigger than you would otherwise have expected? And there Reagan fails the test: between 1979, when the big slump began, and 1989, when the economy finally achieved more or less full employment again, the growth rate was 3 percent, the same as the growth rate between the two previous business cycle peaks in 1973 and 1979. Or to put it another way, by the late 1980's the U.S. economy was about where you would have expected it to be, given the trend in the 1970's. Nothing in the data suggests a supply-side revolution.

Where is the data that does suggest supply side revolutions?


For Clinton did exactly the opposite of what supply-side economics said you should do: he raised the marginal rate on high-income taxpayers. In 1989, the top 1 percent of families paid, on average, only 28.9 percent of their income in federal taxes; by 1995, that share was up to 36.1 percent.

Conservatives confidently awaited a disaster -- but it failed to materialize. In fact, the economy grew at a reasonable pace through Clinton's first term, while the deficit and the unemployment rate went steadily down. And then the news got even better: unemployment fell to its lowest level in decades without causing inflation, while productivity growth accelerated to rates not seen since the 1960's. And the budget deficit turned into an impressive surplus.
...
Let's be clear: very few economists think that Clinton's policies were primarily responsible for that miracle. For the most part, the Clinton-era surge probably reflected the maturing of information technology: businesses finally figured out how to make effective use of computers, and the resulting surge in productivity drove the economy forward. But the fact that America's best growth in a generation took place after the government did exactly the opposite of what tax-cutters advocate was a body blow to their doctrine.

They tried to make the best of the situation. The good economy of the late 1990's, ardent tax-cutters insisted, was caused by the 1981 tax cut. Early in 2000, Lawrence Kudlow and Stephen Moore, prominent supply-siders, published an article titled ''It's the Reagan Economy, Stupid.''

But anyone who thought about the lags involved found this implausible -- indeed, hilarious. If the tax-cut movement attributed the booming economy of 1999 to a tax cut Reagan pushed through 18 years earlier, why didn't they attribute the economic boom of 1983 and 1984 -- Reagan's ''morning in America'' -- to whatever Lyndon Johnson was doing in 1965 and 1966?


Let's see a plausible link explaining how it takes 18 years for the benefits of presidential economic policies to surface.


But the most striking example of what skillful marketing can accomplish is the campaign for repeal of the estate tax.

As demonstrated, the estate tax is a tax on the very, very well off. Yet advocates of repeal began portraying it as a terrible burden on the little guy. They renamed it the ''death tax'' and put out reports decrying its impact on struggling farmers and businessmen -- reports that never provided real-world examples because actual cases of family farms or small businesses broken up to pay estate taxes are almost impossible to find. This campaign succeeded in creating a public perception that the estate tax falls broadly on the population. Earlier this year, a poll found that 49 percent of Americans believed that most families had to pay the estate tax, while only 33 percent gave the right answer that only a few families had to pay.


I knew the right answer, but I've had friends who didn't know there is a $1 million lifetime exemption from the "death tax" (and related gift taxes)...


The most important tool of accounting trickery, though not the only one, is the use of ''sunset clauses'' to understate the long-term budget impact of tax cuts. To keep the official 10-year cost of the 2001 tax cut down, the administration's Congressional allies wrote the law so that tax rates revert to their 2000 levels in 2011. But, of course, nobody expects the sunset to occur: when 2011 rolls around, Congress will be under immense pressure to extend the tax cuts.

The same strategy was used to hide the cost of the 2003 tax cut. Thanks to sunset clauses, its headline cost over the next decade was only $350 billion, but if the sunsets are canceled -- as the president proposed in a speech early this month -- the cost will be at least $800 billion.


Seems sneaky to me.


Even in the short run, the right question to ask isn't whether the tax cuts were better than nothing; they probably were. The right question is whether some other economic-stimulus plan could have achieved better results at a lower budget cost. And it is hard to deny that, on a jobs-per-dollar basis, the Bush tax cuts have been extremely ineffective. According to the Congressional Budget Office, half of this year's $400 billion budget deficit is due to Bush tax cuts. Now $200 billion is a lot of money; it is equivalent to the salaries of four million average workers. Even the administration doesn't claim its policies have created four million jobs. Surely some other policy -- aid to state and local governments, tax breaks for the poor and middle class rather than the rich, maybe even W.P.A.-style public works -- would have been more successful at getting the country back to work.

Let's hear the arguments against other stimulus options. Remind us why tax cuts are the only good way to stimulate the economy...


If Grover Norquist is right -- and he has been right about a lot -- the coming crisis will allow conservatives to move the nation a long way back toward the kind of limited government we had before Franklin Roosevelt. Lack of revenue, he says, will make it possible for conservative politicians -- in the name of fiscal necessity -- to dismantle immensely popular government programs that would otherwise have been untouchable.

In Norquist's vision, America a couple of decades from now will be a place in which elderly people make up a disproportionate share of the poor, as they did before Social Security. It will also be a country in which even middle-class elderly Americans are, in many cases, unable to afford expensive medical procedures or prescription drugs and in which poor Americans generally go without even basic health care. And it may well be a place in which only those who can afford expensive private schools can give their children a decent education.

But as Governor Riley of Alabama reminds us, that's a choice, not a necessity. The tax-cut crusade has created a situation in which something must give. But what gives -- whether we decide that the New Deal and the Great Society must go or that taxes aren't such a bad thing after all -- is up to us. The American people must decide what kind of a country we want to be.


I'm sure people will have problems with these conclusions. The question is, how will we deal with the pinch of government debt without cutting core services or raising taxes to highly unpopular levels?

Fire away. ;)
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: naddicott
The title is the cliffnotes version of this NYT magazine article by Paul Krugman.

While I fear that any discussion of this article will degrade into personal attacks directed towards the author, it would be nice to see some of the stronger conservative thinkers here actually address the key points of Krugman's case. Here's a few good ones for starters:

Riley, a Republican, was a staunch supporter of tax cuts. Faced with a fiscal crisis in his state, however, he seems to have had an epiphany. He decided that it was impossible to balance Alabama's budget without a significant tax increase. And that, apparently, led him to reconsider everything. ''The largest tax increase in state history just to maintain the status quo?'' he asked. ''I don't think so.'' Instead, Riley proposed a wholesale restructuring of the state's tax system: reducing taxes on the poor and middle class while raising them on corporations and the rich and increasing overall tax receipts enough to pay for a big increase in education spending.

Did Bob Riley really propose such an un-Republican tax restructuring?


If taxes stay as low as they are now, government as we know it cannot be maintained. In particular, Social Security will have to become far less generous; Medicare will no longer be able to guarantee comprehensive medical care to older Americans; Medicaid will no longer provide basic medical care to the poor.

This sounds a little speculative and alarmist - anyone care to link economic projections that argue otherwise?


though most Americans feel that they pay too much in taxes, they get off quite lightly compared with the citizens of other advanced countries. Furthermore, for most Americans tax rates probably haven't risen for a generation. And a few Americans -- namely those with high incomes -- face much lower taxes than they did a generation ago.
...
By 2002, the tax take was down to 26.3 percent of G.D.P., and all indications are that it will be lower still this year and next.

This is a low number compared with almost every other advanced country. In 1999, Canada collected 38.2 percent of G.D.P. in taxes, France collected 45.8 percent and Sweden, 52.2 percent.

Still, aren't taxes much higher than they used to be? Not if we're looking back over the past 30 years. As a share of G.D.P., federal taxes are currently at their lowest point since the Eisenhower administration. State and local taxes rose substantially between 1960 and the early 1970's, but have been roughly stable since then. Aside from the capital gains taxes paid during the bubble years, the share of income Americans pay in taxes has been flat since Richard Nixon was president.


Anyone care to defend the "regular Americans pay too much taxes" argument with numbers to counter these?


By the time the Bush tax cuts have taken full effect, people with really high incomes will face their lowest average tax rate since the Hoover administration.

Bringing up associations the Hoover administration is like using a bad word... ouch.


Supply-side economics was a political doctrine from Day 1; it emerged in the pages of political magazines, not professional economics journals.

Fact or fiction?


It is not that the professionals refuse to consider supply-side ideas; rather, they have looked at them and found them wanting. A conspicuous example came earlier this year when the Congressional Budget Office tried to evaluate the growth effects of the Bush administration's proposed tax cuts. The budget office's new head, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, is a conservative economist who was handpicked for his job by the administration. But his conclusion was that unless the revenue losses from the proposed tax cuts were offset by spending cuts, the resulting deficits would be a drag on growth, quite likely to outweigh any supply-side effects.

Straight from Bush's CBO's mouth...


Irving Kristol, in his role as co-editor of The Public Interest, was arguably the single most important proponent of supply-side economics. But years later, he suggested that he himself wasn't all that persuaded by the doctrine: ''I was not certain of its economic merits but quickly saw its political possibilities.'' Writing in 1995, he explained that his real aim was to shrink the government and that tax cuts were a means to that end: ''The task, as I saw it, was to create a new majority, which evidently would mean a conservative majority, which came to mean, in turn, a Republican majority -- so political effectiveness was the priority, not the accounting deficiencies of government.''

In effect, what Kristol said in 1995 was that he and his associates set out to deceive the American public. They sold tax cuts on the pretense that they would be painless, when they themselves believed that it would be necessary to slash public spending in order to make room for those cuts.


Misquoted? Taken out of context? If not, this is a pretty damning statement.


The test of tax cuts as a spur to economic growth is whether they produced more than an ordinary business cycle recovery. Once the economy was back to full employment, was it bigger than you would otherwise have expected? And there Reagan fails the test: between 1979, when the big slump began, and 1989, when the economy finally achieved more or less full employment again, the growth rate was 3 percent, the same as the growth rate between the two previous business cycle peaks in 1973 and 1979. Or to put it another way, by the late 1980's the U.S. economy was about where you would have expected it to be, given the trend in the 1970's. Nothing in the data suggests a supply-side revolution.

Where is the data that does suggest supply side revolutions?


For Clinton did exactly the opposite of what supply-side economics said you should do: he raised the marginal rate on high-income taxpayers. In 1989, the top 1 percent of families paid, on average, only 28.9 percent of their income in federal taxes; by 1995, that share was up to 36.1 percent.

Conservatives confidently awaited a disaster -- but it failed to materialize. In fact, the economy grew at a reasonable pace through Clinton's first term, while the deficit and the unemployment rate went steadily down. And then the news got even better: unemployment fell to its lowest level in decades without causing inflation, while productivity growth accelerated to rates not seen since the 1960's. And the budget deficit turned into an impressive surplus.
...
Let's be clear: very few economists think that Clinton's policies were primarily responsible for that miracle. For the most part, the Clinton-era surge probably reflected the maturing of information technology: businesses finally figured out how to make effective use of computers, and the resulting surge in productivity drove the economy forward. But the fact that America's best growth in a generation took place after the government did exactly the opposite of what tax-cutters advocate was a body blow to their doctrine.

They tried to make the best of the situation. The good economy of the late 1990's, ardent tax-cutters insisted, was caused by the 1981 tax cut. Early in 2000, Lawrence Kudlow and Stephen Moore, prominent supply-siders, published an article titled ''It's the Reagan Economy, Stupid.''

But anyone who thought about the lags involved found this implausible -- indeed, hilarious. If the tax-cut movement attributed the booming economy of 1999 to a tax cut Reagan pushed through 18 years earlier, why didn't they attribute the economic boom of 1983 and 1984 -- Reagan's ''morning in America'' -- to whatever Lyndon Johnson was doing in 1965 and 1966?


Let's see a plausible link explaining how it takes 18 years for the benefits of presidential economic policies to surface.


But the most striking example of what skillful marketing can accomplish is the campaign for repeal of the estate tax.

As demonstrated, the estate tax is a tax on the very, very well off. Yet advocates of repeal began portraying it as a terrible burden on the little guy. They renamed it the ''death tax'' and put out reports decrying its impact on struggling farmers and businessmen -- reports that never provided real-world examples because actual cases of family farms or small businesses broken up to pay estate taxes are almost impossible to find. This campaign succeeded in creating a public perception that the estate tax falls broadly on the population. Earlier this year, a poll found that 49 percent of Americans believed that most families had to pay the estate tax, while only 33 percent gave the right answer that only a few families had to pay.


I knew the right answer, but I've had friends who didn't know there is a $1 million lifetime exemption from the "death tax" (and related gift taxes)...


The most important tool of accounting trickery, though not the only one, is the use of ''sunset clauses'' to understate the long-term budget impact of tax cuts. To keep the official 10-year cost of the 2001 tax cut down, the administration's Congressional allies wrote the law so that tax rates revert to their 2000 levels in 2011. But, of course, nobody expects the sunset to occur: when 2011 rolls around, Congress will be under immense pressure to extend the tax cuts.

The same strategy was used to hide the cost of the 2003 tax cut. Thanks to sunset clauses, its headline cost over the next decade was only $350 billion, but if the sunsets are canceled -- as the president proposed in a speech early this month -- the cost will be at least $800 billion.


Seems sneaky to me.


Even in the short run, the right question to ask isn't whether the tax cuts were better than nothing; they probably were. The right question is whether some other economic-stimulus plan could have achieved better results at a lower budget cost. And it is hard to deny that, on a jobs-per-dollar basis, the Bush tax cuts have been extremely ineffective. According to the Congressional Budget Office, half of this year's $400 billion budget deficit is due to Bush tax cuts. Now $200 billion is a lot of money; it is equivalent to the salaries of four million average workers. Even the administration doesn't claim its policies have created four million jobs. Surely some other policy -- aid to state and local governments, tax breaks for the poor and middle class rather than the rich, maybe even W.P.A.-style public works -- would have been more successful at getting the country back to work.

Let's hear the arguments against other stimulus options. Remind us why tax cuts are the only good way to stimulate the economy...


If Grover Norquist is right -- and he has been right about a lot -- the coming crisis will allow conservatives to move the nation a long way back toward the kind of limited government we had before Franklin Roosevelt. Lack of revenue, he says, will make it possible for conservative politicians -- in the name of fiscal necessity -- to dismantle immensely popular government programs that would otherwise have been untouchable.

In Norquist's vision, America a couple of decades from now will be a place in which elderly people make up a disproportionate share of the poor, as they did before Social Security. It will also be a country in which even middle-class elderly Americans are, in many cases, unable to afford expensive medical procedures or prescription drugs and in which poor Americans generally go without even basic health care. And it may well be a place in which only those who can afford expensive private schools can give their children a decent education.

But as Governor Riley of Alabama reminds us, that's a choice, not a necessity. The tax-cut crusade has created a situation in which something must give. But what gives -- whether we decide that the New Deal and the Great Society must go or that taxes aren't such a bad thing after all -- is up to us. The American people must decide what kind of a country we want to be.


I'm sure people will have problems with these conclusions. The question is, how will we deal with the pinch of government debt without cutting core services or raising taxes to highly unpopular levels?

Fire away. ;)

Krugman is not what you would call an unbiased source. As usual he does a pretty good job of only telling 1/2 the story.

He failed to give credit to Kennedy for giving the first big tax cut.
He fails to mention Bushs first tax was back loaded.
He fails to mention Bushs current tax plans has only been in effect a couple months and economists are revising the GDP growth upward. 3.8% growth to 5.5% growth are the numbers i have seen for the current quarter.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
Originally posted by: charrison
Krugman is not what you would call an unbiased source. As usual he does a pretty good job of only telling 1/2 the story.
Didn't take long to redirect attention away from the points raised to Krugman's credibility did it?
He failed to give credit to Kennedy for giving the first big tax cut.
OK - was Kennedy's tax cut intended primarily as a economic stimulus using Supply Side reasoning? Did it support Supply Side theories?
He fails to mention Bushs first tax was back loaded.
OK, I concede that is a good thing. If Bush isn't re-elected and his cuts are repealed, the damage should be a little less. While the role of up-to-date cuts on the rising Government deficit is worth discussing (although I would rather take Bush's CBO's assessment over an implied non-role in an AT post), your point doesn't address the long-term debt issues raised in the article.
He fails to mention Bushs current tax plans has only been in effect a couple months and economists are revising the GDP growth upward. 3.8% growth to 5.5% growth are the numbers i have seen for the current quarter.
Are these economists attibuting this increase in the growth estimate to the tax cuts? Does this change the argument that the share of this years deficit due to tax cuts ($200 bil according to Bush's CBO) could have better stimulated the economy by using those taxes to directly stimulate the economy with jobs?

I'm sorry, but I don't find these omissions to be half a story (Krugman's a big story in # of pages after all), or particularly damning to the case made by the article's arguments.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
But isn't a large portion of the increased economic activity a function of deficit spending on the Bush War machine?

Fewer Americans are working longer and harder while the benefits of Bush tax policy accrue to the wealthy. The typical tax cut going to the lower half of American wage earners is nothing compared to chronic high fuel costs, tax increases at the state level to offset federal cutbacks in aid, tax increases at the state level to meet unfunded/underfunded federal mandates (Medicaid/Medicare, SCHIP, Leave No Child Behind, Homeland Security), unemployment (and curtailment/exhaustion of unemployment benefits), increasing long term interest rates (response to what appears to be a developing structural federal deficit).
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
Here is a little blast from the past regarding the Professors in the Economics and Political Science departments at Bush's Alma Matter and what they thought about Bush's first set of tax cuts (link):

Most professors maintain, however that monetary policy should be the primary tool the government should employ to normalize the economy. While "the fiscal stimulus argument is not great" according to Levy, fiscal policy does find a place in some economic regimens. "A temporary, mild, quick tax cut could be a good bit of Keynesian medicine to pull the economy out of a potential recession," Rust says. But larger tax cuts, Rust adds, are based on a "fundamental distrust of the U.S. government." Green pinpoints the prevailing attitude among tax cut proponents: "They feel that they should keep what they earn."
N.B. The article does mention the "back-loaded" nature of those cuts.

[edit: here's another article on Grover Norquist from June that details his anti-government views and his relationship with Republican leaders. (the article's author clearly has a liberal bias)]
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: naddicott
Originally posted by: charrison
Krugman is not what you would call an unbiased source. As usual he does a pretty good job of only telling 1/2 the story.
Didn't take long to redirect attention away from the points raised to Krugman's credibility did it?



Krugman does have this reputation.


He failed to give credit to Kennedy for giving the first big tax cut.
OK - was Kennedy's tax cut intended primarily as a economic stimulus using Supply Side reasoning? Did it support Supply Side theories?

If you mean by supply side, big tax cuts to the rich, then yes it was. Kennedy cut the top bracket from 90% to about 70%. The bush tax cut was about only 3 points on the top bracket.




He fails to mention Bushs first tax was back loaded.
OK, I concede that is a good thing. If Bush isn't re-elected and his cuts are repealed, the damage should be a little less. While the role of up-to-date cuts on the rising Government deficit is worth discussing (although I would rather take Bush's CBO's assessment over an implied non-role in an AT post), your point doesn't address the long-term debt issues raised in the article.


Then you will also concede the first tax cut had little effect as most of it was back loaded. The tax cut could hardly be deemed a failure if time was not given given for it to phase in.




He fails to mention Bushs current tax plans has only been in effect a couple months and economists are revising the GDP growth upward. 3.8% growth to 5.5% growth are the numbers i have seen for the current quarter.
Are these economists attibuting this increase in the growth estimate to the tax cuts? Does this change the argument that the share of this years deficit due to tax cuts ($200 bil according to Bush's CBO) could have better stimulated the economy by using those taxes to directly stimulate the economy with jobs?


Economist are attribiting it to refinancing and tax cuts. $200Billion is alot, but what steps should have been taken to stimulate the economy.


I'm sorry, but I don't find these omissions to be half a story (Krugman's a big story in # of pages after all), or particularly damning to the case made by the article's arguments.

It is a rather lengthly article, I could have inserted similar rebuttals thoughout the article.

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Supply side economics used as a cover to end schools/medicare/soc. security?

If these programs are so worthwhile, they'll be able to stand on their own right regardless of what level of deficit. That some are concerned about their survival just because we're in a tax cutting environment is simply indicative that they're not truly core government functions, but rather a luxury we've chosen to provide. Otherwise, if they were so indispensible, the very thought of them being eliminated wouldn't even cross our minds as there'd be no question that we'd find the money for them somehow. For example, it wouldn't matter how bad things got economically, we're not going to stop funding national defense, because it's a core government function.

One can argue that even though they aren't core functions but discretionary ones, that they should be one of the (or the) highest priorities in the discretionary part of the budget, but that's another issue altogether.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
Originally posted by: charrison
Krugman does have this reputation.
So?
It is a rather lengthly article, I could have inserted similar rebuttals thoughout the article.
Specific rebuttals of Krugman's points is exactly what I'm interested in seeing, and why I went through the trouble of adding selective quotes in my original post. I know Krugman has his own political agenda, but I'm interested in what the "other side" rebuttals to his arguments are.

I'm not fond of Rush Limbaugh, but I don't instantly disregard all his arguments because he is a rabid Conservative, especially arguments supported by evidence and quotes from sources who have opposing politics. Whether the discussion's starting point originates from the Right or Left, it is still worth discussing national economic policy. Perhaps it isn't worth talking about it, as these matters are largely out of our hands, but in that case why have a political forum at AnandTech at all?
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
Originally posted by: glenn1
If these programs are so worthwhile, they'll be able to stand on their own right regardless of what level of deficit. That some are concerned about their survival just because we're in a tax cutting environment is simply indicative that they're not truly core government functions, but rather a luxury we've chosen to provide. Otherwise, if they were so indispensible, the very thought of them being eliminated wouldn't even cross our minds as there'd be no question that we'd find the money for them somehow. For example, it wouldn't matter how bad things got economically, we're not going to stop funding national defense, because it's a core government function.

One can argue that even though they aren't core functions but discretionary ones, that they should be one of the (or the) highest priorities in the discretionary part of the budget, but that's another issue altogether.
If these programs aren't worthwhile, why don't most of the polititians voting for these cuts run on a platform of "cutting education/medicare/social security and giving you your money back" rather than the current "give you your money back and... and..." and try to avoid mentioning the deficits? The answer of course is the anti "big government" polititians might not be re-elected if they openly admit their entire agenda to their constituents. Stashing one's political agenda in the delayed effect of a growing national debt is an underhanded approach, IMO. On the other hand, if voters are fooled by such an approach, to some extent it is their own fault.

I'm not sure which scenario I like less: huge tax increases 20-40 years down the road because America decides it can't do without core government services and being among those stuck with the nasty bill, or living in a country with no public education, untreated sick, and impoverished elderly.... My hunch is it will be a combination of the two but mostly the former, and the pain of those tax hikes will be much worse than if the U.S. just balances its books as it goes.

 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
0
0
medicare is fraught with abuse and fraud, social security is a mathematical joke. you cannot support any person except at a 1:1 ratio, because any ratio greater guarantees insolvency.

schools are paid for by property taxes in each locale, a small token amount comes from the federal government to keep them inline with national curriculum

if you want to put it in perspective, the tax rates now are what there were in 1992. i would support larger taxes only if it would be spent on paying down the national debt. i would support tax cuts if it would prevent the government from overspending in the future. unfortunately neither seems to be the case
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
why don't most of the polititians voting for these cuts run on a platform of "cutting education/medicare/social security and giving you your money back" rather than the current "give you your money back and... and..." and try to avoid mentioning the deficits?

I don't see anyone running on the opposite platform either. Well, strike that. Mondale ran on essentially that platform, and got crushed in the election. I'd relish a political contest focusing on that question of basic philosophies, "which is your preferrence over the course of the next ___ years, a lower tax rate or higher level of social services?"

I honestly do wish a politician would make a rebalancing of the current status quo a focus of his campaign. Ideally, i wish a politician would run affirmatively on the issue of privatizing Social Security so we could settle that issue with a firm mandate for working on fixing the problem for the long term. We already know the current generation of recipients would be horrified at the very thought of their gravy train being derailed, but hopefully my generation might be willing to take a bit of a hit to put things right. The only question left with SS is who's going to be left holding the bag at the end of the Ponzi scheme. I'd rather see the end come in a planned fashion.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: naddicott
Originally posted by: glenn1
If these programs are so worthwhile, they'll be able to stand on their own right regardless of what level of deficit. That some are concerned about their survival just because we're in a tax cutting environment is simply indicative that they're not truly core government functions, but rather a luxury we've chosen to provide. Otherwise, if they were so indispensible, the very thought of them being eliminated wouldn't even cross our minds as there'd be no question that we'd find the money for them somehow. For example, it wouldn't matter how bad things got economically, we're not going to stop funding national defense, because it's a core government function.

One can argue that even though they aren't core functions but discretionary ones, that they should be one of the (or the) highest priorities in the discretionary part of the budget, but that's another issue altogether.
If these programs aren't worthwhile, why don't most of the polititians voting for these cuts run on a platform of "cutting education/medicare/social security and giving you your money back" rather than the current "give you your money back and... and..." and try to avoid mentioning the deficits? The answer of course is the anti "big government" polititians might not be re-elected if they openly admit their entire agenda to their constituents. Stashing one's political agenda in the delayed effect of a growing national debt is an underhanded approach, IMO. On the other hand, if voters are fooled by such an approach, to some extent it is their own fault.

I'm not sure which scenario I like less: huge tax increases 20-40 years down the road because America decides it can't do without core government services and being among those stuck with the nasty bill, or living in a country with no public education, untreated sick, and impoverished elderly.... My hunch is it will be a combination of the two but mostly the former, and the pain of those tax hikes will be much worse than if the U.S. just balances its books as it goes.

You do realize that current defecits are not record breaking when adjusted for inflation.
You do realize that we are currently not at record levels of debt to GDP.

That being said, I would like to see more fiscal responsability from our reps in DC.
I firmly beleive that cost of the tax cuts could easily come from getting rid of wasteful spending in DC.
Reduction in spending does not equal reduction in services either.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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medicare is fraught with abuse and fraud, social security is a mathematical joke. you cannot support any person except at a 1:1 ratio, because any ratio greater guarantees insolvency.
If you are such an expert on Medicare abuse/fraud (which does exist but not in the manner most people think) why do you think no one in Washington is planning to do anything about it?

schools are paid for by property taxes in each locale, a small token amount comes from the federal government to keep them inline with national curriculum
Many states have poor systems of education precisely b/c they fund it through property taxes. For most low income/tax base communities a sizeable portion of funding comes from the Feds. In some communities, state and federal funding may actually match local funding. There's no such animal as national curriculum. Most states have State Boards of Education that produce standard courses of study.

if you want to put it in perspective, the tax rates now are what there were in 1992. i would support larger taxes only if it would be spent on paying down the national debt. i would support tax cuts if it would prevent the government from overspending in the future. unfortunately neither seems to be the case
Now you are cooking with Crisco but it's time to switch to canola . . . or better yet flax. We should not raise taxes per se but definitely repeal the top bracket tax cuts. The idea of giving this administration more money seems foolhardy considering the Executive and Legislative branches have nothing resembling financial restraint. They cannot be trusted. I would build in a nice "electric collar" effect into the budget. Members of Congress would be exempted from tax cuts. For every 1/10th of a percent they overspend, 1% would be deducted from their pay. I believe we missed by 25% for fiscal 2004 so Congress owes the Treasury 150% of 150K plus the original 150K. The President's factor would be 2% b/c he could always veto bad budgets (like all of the ones he's signed so far). Therefore, by my estimation GWB owes America 2 million bucks. Personallly, I think he's getting off easy.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
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you cannot support any person except at a 1:1 ratio, because any ratio greater guarantees insolvency.
That's not true. Even assuming a static population size, the ratio would be:

(avg length of time spent alive while getting SS)/(avg length of time spent working)
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
The poor aren't paying their fair share of taxes, it's about time they start. Its time someone derail the gravy train.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Riley was playing politics when he proposed that plan. He assumed that he could get the poor to vote for the plan and that the rich would vote for it because they wanted to better schools. Well, the rich did vote for it because they have half a brain, but the poor showed once again why they are poor...because they are so fvcking stupid.
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Corn
The poor aren't paying their fair share of taxes, it's about time they start. Its time someone derail the gravy train.
Actually, the best place to start derailing the gravy train has nothing to do with taxes. The best place to start is getting rid of the farm subsidies.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: amok
Originally posted by: Corn
The poor aren't paying their fair share of taxes, it's about time they start. Its time someone derail the gravy train.
Actually, the best place to start derailing the gravy train has nothing to do with taxes. The best place to start is getting rid of the farm subsidies.

That is one area - yes. However without restructuring the Welfare system first it would create a HUGE burden on the system to ditch the subsidies to the Ag industry.

There needs to be a plan put in place to make our Agriculture be able stand on it's own. I understand this is easier to say then do, but we need to work toward that end goal. To tie in reconstruction of out social welfare policies with the reconstruction of our market industry welfare seems the most logical path to take. Set the course and prod it along in a manner that wouldn't instantly ruin people's lives or the markets.

I've been somewhat silent on this issue because as some of you know, I live in Iowa(who gets a big share of Ag "welfare") and my stance isn't very popular here - to say the least:p I've also stayed somewhat silent because I don't have a workable solution figured out yet. I'm working on my position as I see more and more of the AG industry. I work for an Automation Integrator who's main focus is the Food/AG industry so I'm getting a better feel for the corporate effects now, instead of just seeing the "farmer" side before. I've seen more Farming families loose their livelihood than I care to recall - but I've also seen their transition into other areas when basically forced from the Farming.

I'm sure this issue will be around for a while since it CAN'T be solved with a "Quick fix". This will take time and a clear vision to make it to the end goal.

CkG
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
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If you are such an expert on Medicare abuse/fraud (which does exist but not in the manner most people think) why do you think no one in Washington is planning to do anything about it?

numbers of doctors have been caught, but u can bet there's plenty more. you can google search that. patients and doctors conspire to abuse the system together which makes it harder. i'm not familiar with medicare all that much so i would not know how to reform it specifically, but as with any large government bureacracy i know that it can be reformed to be better

in fact just a few months ago an ATOT'er posted how they knew of a welfare mom abusing the system by moving her family back and forth between two states EVERY six months to collect welfare benefits and as they expire after 6 months move to the other state and back and forth... who needs a job

but the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 did atleast change the system drastically, minimizing a majority of serial abusers.

an example of farm subsidies is sugar. in 2000 or 2001, farmers overproduced sugar by about 435 million tons and congress authrorized to buy it off of them for billions (can't remeber the exact number, would have to ask my econ professor). to put it in perspective that is enough sugar to feed every person in the world two krispy kreme donuts. now it just sits in silos. the sugar industry is one of the biggest contributors to politicians which is why sugar costs 200% of what it would go for in the world market.


who benefits the most from farm subsidies? not farmers. large corporations that own factory farms which put small farmers out of business. but this is fine since they are "more efficient". oh wait it is not more efficient when you factor in the subsidies...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami

who benefits the most from farm subsidies? not farmers. large corporations that own factory farms which put small farmers out of business. but this is fine since they are "more efficient". oh wait it is not more efficient when you factor in the subsidies...

Yes, corporate farming gets "most" but they also produce the "most". You also can't tell me that the small famer is "innocent" - I've seen many small(and I mean small) farmers who have new tractors every couple of years, and always had a New Chevy or Ford Pick-up in their driveway - yet were "poor farmers". Sure not all "small" farmers did but the "smart" ones who play the system well did. Couldn't buy clothes for their kids because they were "poor", but had a shiny new truck in the driveway thanks to the gov't.;) don't get me wrong - it is a two way street. It just ALL needs to be addressed - not just blamed on one side of issue - they are ALL at fault for leeching- both individuals and corporations.

The whole welfare mentality of "I am entitled to....because....and the gov't should give it to me" is what is wrong - wether it be industry or individuals.

CkG
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
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Originally posted by: Corn
The poor aren't paying their fair share of taxes, it's about time they start. Its time someone derail the gravy train.

The saddest thing is, Corn is actually serious when saying that.

I don't know if you claim, as do Bush and members of his administration, to be a Christian. But for Bush and those in his administration who do, those who support them and you if you make that claim.

I can't undrerstand how anyone who has read and claims to follow the words of Jesus Christ can justify the economic policies and the threat they pose to the working class in America. Without even taking into consideration the threat they pose to the poorest Americans. Or the current "foreign policy."
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
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The Apocalypse is upon us when BOBDN starts lecturing people on how Christians should believe.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami

who benefits the most from farm subsidies? not farmers. large corporations that own factory farms which put small farmers out of business. but this is fine since they are "more efficient". oh wait it is not more efficient when you factor in the subsidies...

Yes, corporate farming gets "most" but they also produce the "most". You also can't tell me that the small famer is "innocent" - I've seen many small(and I mean small) farmers who have new tractors every couple of years, and always had a New Chevy or Ford Pick-up in their driveway - yet were "poor farmers". Sure not all "small" farmers did but the "smart" ones who play the system well did. Couldn't buy clothes for their kids because they were "poor", but had a shiny new truck in the driveway thanks to the gov't.;) don't get me wrong - it is a two way street. It just ALL needs to be addressed - not just blamed on one side of issue - they are ALL at fault for leeching- both individuals and corporations.

The whole welfare mentality of "I am entitled to....because....and the gov't should give it to me" is what is wrong - wether it be industry or individuals.

CkG

The amount of corporate subsidies is hard to equate with the amount small family farmers get. And why envy people for a pick up truck or a new tractor? Should they drive a dilapidated truck and plow by hand? They are permitted to use equipment and, as large corporations have always know and taken advantage of, equipment depreciates and at a certain point you lose money by driving a piece of junk.

All those truck and tractor sales are great for the economy as well. (Do we make any trucks and tractors in America anymore?) :)

Also it's not a welfare mentality for people to expect something for the tax dollars they send to Washington every week.

It's a welfare mentality when people who don't pay any taxes, the largest US corporations as well as those who run offshore to evade taxes, get billions back in subsidies while small independent family farms are facing extinction.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
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Originally posted by: Millennium
The Apocalypse is upon us when BOBDN starts lecturing people on how Christians should believe.

I'm not lecturing you on anything, junior.

I'm just pointing out a contradiction none of those Christians has been able to explain to me.

Some of them come up with evasive BS but still no explanation. :)
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
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Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Millennium
The Apocalypse is upon us when BOBDN starts lecturing people on how Christians should believe.

I'm not lecturing you on anything, junior.

I'm just pointing out a contradiction none of those Christians has been able to explain to me.

Some of them come up with evasive BS but still no explanation. :)

Junior? You act like a three year old so I really have to doubt that you are older than me.