SUN/Novell combine to form MS Windows Killer

[Nothinman]

If I'm stuck with clients having to choose between those 2 evils, I'll take the one that's easier to deal with and IMO that's MS and .Net. But I don't have to make that decision or really support either of them, so I'm not too concerned. And there are mono packages in Debian so it'll be a lot easier for me to keep it installed and updated than Java.

 

[kamper]

I don't understand how a pure html interface generated by a java backend is an evil for you. It's only an evil for the developers.

It's not a big deal to me if you hate java. I just wish you wouldn't make blanket statements about a technology and an industry that doesn't tickle your fancy and, frankly, that you don't have a very good perspective on.

 

[Nothinman]

It's evil for me when I have to maintain the server running the java backend or the desktop with the JRE.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
It's evil for me when I have to maintain the server running the java backend or the desktop with the JRE.

This I agree with.
Java may be a nice for developers and all, but my experience with admining servers running Java applications pretty much mirror Nothinmans.

I don't remember where I read it, but on some site, someone said something to the effect that Java was probably created by a bunch of guys in a bubble, disconnected from the rest of the world, because that's about how Java feels no matter what system it's running on.

 

[MadRat]

The only problems with Java I've seen were the ones created by Microsoft making their own standard. Having all of our developer tools using MS Java - then MS forcibly removing support for it because they got spanked in court - caused the only pain and suffering over Java IMO.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: MadRat
The only problems with Java I've seen were the ones created by Microsoft making their own standard. Having all of our developer tools using MS Java - then MS forcibly removing support for it because they got spanked in court - caused the only pain and suffering over Java IMO.

As I recall, the big tiff between Sun and Microsoft over Java was Microsoft's addition of its own set of classes to their JRE. Since Microsoft owned the dominant operating system (Windows) and shipped its virtual machine along with its own classes in Windows, Sun feared that developers would write apps using Microsoft's classes and thus would break Sun's much-touted cross-platform compatibility. Sun started campaigning for "Pure Java" development.

As a result, Microsoft stopped developing its VM (leaving it at Java 1.1), millions of Windows users were left with an outdated VM, and Sun was unable to push Java2 apps and applets out effectively (since the default Windows VM would not run them). Eventually, they forced Microsoft to remove the VM completely from Windows (with XP SP1), forcing XP users to download their JRE.

Distributing Java applets and applications has been an absolute nightmare thanks to these headaches. You can't depend on users having a Java 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 or 1.4 virtual machine installed. Each VM has its own quirks, and none particularly run quickly in the desktop setting (server VMs are much better, and Microsoft's VM was pretty fast too, albeit buggy). Java is wonderful from a development perspective, and for server applications it runs quite fast, but as a desktop application platform it stinks.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: MadRat
The only problems with Java I've seen were the ones created by Microsoft making their own standard. Having all of our developer tools using MS Java - then MS forcibly removing support for it because they got spanked in court - caused the only pain and suffering over Java IMO.

That's the reason why Sun kept it's licensing restrictive.

If Microsoft would of kept on that path, then it would of made Java almost as propriatory as ActiveX. So I figure Sun was smart and knew that Microsoft would do the 'extend and embrace' and break the standard.

So they licensed it in such a way that when they knew that Microsoft would go and be but-sticks then they would be able to knock MS down a peg or two. They set a trap and let MS walk right into it.

Of course Sun may have sacrificed the war to win the battle.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: kamper
And if a bomb dropped on Redmond tomorrow...

There would be great rejoicing, throughout the land!!!

"Gone where the goblins go, below, below, below... Ding Dong the wicked ***** is dead!"
(with apologies to the late L. Frank Baum)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: MrChad
Distributing Java applets and applications has been an absolute nightmare thanks to these headaches. You can't depend on users having a Java 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 or 1.4 virtual machine installed. Each VM has its own quirks, and none particularly run quickly in the desktop setting (server VMs are much better, and Microsoft's VM was pretty fast too, albeit buggy). Java is wonderful from a development perspective, and for server applications it runs quite fast, but as a desktop application platform it stinks.

That's exactly why it scares me, that Java support is apparently being written into the Blu-Ray disc standards, along with some mention of downloadable updates, and other sorts of relatively pie-in-the-sky features that shouldn't really be necessary for a standalone video movie disc player. Am I really going to have to update the JVM contained in my BD-ROM movie player, to patch for exploits?? How ludicrous.

 

[kamper]

I don't think security would be a huge problem, java has a pretty decent track record in that department. Would you prefer microsoft software on the device? As long as you shield the user from the software it would work. These things have to run some software written in some language. Of course, if it's not the right language for the required tasks then it would be dumb.

On the other hand, if it touched the pc world then there would be trouble. I would think that any media disk standard would be used there as well. I can definitely see compatibility problems if users have to manage their own jvms. Most desktop users don't have a clue about java (thinking of all the people who try to reinstall their jvm because their browser gives them javascript errors) and Microsoft certainly isn't going to provide a convenient solution.

 

[kamper]

And btw, despite the argument, I appreciate that the sysadmin types are expressing frustration with maintaining java applications. As a developer that's something I should learn about so if you have more examples of problems I'd like to hear about them so that I can try to avoid similar situations with the software that I create (but no, you're not going to get me to abandon java ).

 

[kamper]

Just as one more note: I know that our products are easier to manage/install than what you have been describing Nothinman (at least I hope). You just run an msi, pick some directories and the server starts running as a service.

The interesting part is that we bundle a jre with the installer (I had to do some asking around to confirm this) and run off that jre so there is no configuration for the admin and it's not registered with windows so you can easily run different jres on the same machine with no conflict (the only downside is the loss of disk space). It may not integrate with the os the way .NET will but it can be done reasonably well. I'm not sure how the licensing works for the bundling but I'm told that we're in the clear.

 

[Nothinman]

The interesting part is that we bundle a jre with the installer (I had to do some asking around to confirm this) and run off that jre so there is no configuration for the admin and it's not registered with windows so you can easily run different jres

WTF is the point of Java if you have to bundle a JRE with your application? Yay, now every application is 30M larger than it needs to be.

 

[kamper]

The point is it's an excellent platform for developing serious systems. 30M is a pretty silly thing to quibble over when you're talking about a dedicated server.

 

[Nothinman]

It doesn't seem stupid to you, that in order to ensure your product works well you have to distribute a specific version of the JRE?

 

[kamper]

I realize that it's not ideal, but then again we aren't installing on numerous desktops. It saves administrators from having to install a jvm before our product, from having to check jvm versions and from setting environment variables. Whether or not it's "stupid" is irrelevant because the benefits outweigh the cost and it makes the company money. That's the bottom line far more often than what seems stupid.

If deployment issues were a big deal then we would see more effort to produce workable solutions. Obviously java in the browser (and arguably on the desktop as well) has failed in comparison to what James Gosling planned in the beginning and that is probably because of the reasons that you cite (Sunner and MrChad put it well also: no os integration). But it hasn't failed on the server side because these issues aren't as big a deal there and by this point the language is deeply enough entrenched that solutions will be found when needed before people actually stop using it.

 

[Nothinman]

Development stupidity is hardly irrelevant, of course we put up with it when we have to but if there's options available we'll choose the least stupid. If deployment issues were a big deal we wouldn't see the hordes of applications that only install to c: either, but we do and whenever possible we avoid those apps. That's not a java thing at all, just a general complaint about stupid commercial software developers.

 

[kamper]

Yes, we chose what in our opinion was the least stupid route. We waste a few cents worth of disk space and a few seconds of install time to save you, the administrator, hassle which is the very thing you've been complaining about all along. The people who use our software requested that we include the jvm so that they don't have to deal with it.

The lack of a cleaner solution is unfortunate but it's not our fault and there's nothing we can do about it. I'm all for doing things in the most flexible, ideal manner but I hate people who don't seem to realize that you can spend too much time and effort fixing something that's not worth fixing every bit as much as I hate people who don't spend enough time fixing stuff that needs to be fixed.

Edit: changed some wording

 

[Nothinman]

Java: write once, run away.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
Java: write once, run away.

I like it...I like it alot